Moonkin DPS Numbers/Comparisons - Page 4

Manabar · 04/21/07, 3:03 PM

Originally Posted by Boevis

Disprove what? You didn't present any facts, just opinion based on an AoE caster oriented raid group. You've contributed nothing to this thread by posting why Moonkin is inferior (in your eyes) to a shadow priest, beyond pissing me off. Not that anyone in their right mind would ever add a 2nd Shadow Priest to a group over another Mage or Warlock (yeah, that's MY opinion).

You want to compare Moonkin based on DPS? Ok, take a Warlock, Mage, Elem Shaman, and Shadow Priest spreadsheet, Add 5% Crit to whatever gear level you find appropriate. Taking the numbers from the gear of people in my guild, a slightly greater than 5% DPS increase for both the shaman and mage, just over 1% for the priest, and 3% to the warlock. At equal gear level, Moonkin isn't 14% below other DPS classes. Yeah, our DPS and DPM sucks, whatever, Moonkin is now more viable than feral tanks now. I guess that is some sort of class balance ...

You want to compare Moonkin based on utility? That gets into what's needed for the fight, which is pretty much unable to be theory crafted on a grand scale. You can talk about healthstones, AoE, CC, Health and Mana until you're blue in the face, and I assume this is what you're talking about; having to chose which class gets dropped to let in the class you need for the fight (warlocks on Magtheridon for instance) It's going to change depending on the fight though, on a fight like Mag, I'd take a moonkin over a 2nd Shadow Priest, and probably over a mage as well. Moonkin itself isn't that big a deal anyway, dropping it to decurse, abolish poison, or heal certainly isn't the end of the world, it's just part of being a hybrid. But that's for the threads about specific bosses.

Of course, there's always the main argument for Moonkin (and druids in general) that pisses me off, we're the ideal class to bring along when there's slack to pick up. Every time I cast rebirth, I want to say to people "Thanks for being a noob and justifying my raid utility by dying"

The "DPS increase" of 5% crit to 4 classes (probably 3 because any caster DPS group should have at least one shadow priest to whom crit is worthless) is not going to be worth an entire DPS class spot. What would you say is better, 15% crit raid-wise or another 900 DPS? Moonkin also cannot control their threat nor will they have the mana to go on long fights. Moonkin utility is almost non-existent and the extra armor you gain from being a bird is worthless for a ranged caster DPS.

You'd take a Moonkin over a second shadow priest? Do you have any idea what a mage can put out with two shadow priests in their group? You can spam arcane blast indefinitely provided you pot/gem accordingly. Add that to a mage with 2/5 tier5 and you're probably going to see the highest DPS out of any class currenlty in the game.

We took a bear tank to BT last night and he was able to MT the first boss. I don't see how a moonkin is going to be more useful than that.

• Playered · 04/21/07, 3:21 PM

While 1 SP vs 1 Moonkin is a no-brainer, the 2nd SP vs 1 Moonkin is somewhat more relative.

Your generally going to have groups like this Tank, Healer, Caster, Melee, X.
Caster group will get the 1st SP and reap all the benefits therein.

The second SP would either go on Healers (consumables sustain mana np anyway...), or on group X of which will tend to have people of which mana isn't that much of an issue anyway (perhaps a Hunter).
So effectivly his utility is mostly wasted.. its an economical gain on potions rather than a significant boost like the first SP would give the raid/his group.
At this point (assuming equal DPS) there isn't a huge difference between a Moonkin or a SP.

Bahkauv · 04/21/07, 8:44 PM

I don´t see the point in a SP vs. Moonkin debate. Yes, a SP is an extremely useful addition to any raid. That being said, it has nothing to do with the usefulness of a moonkin.

A Moonkin can deliver a good amount of dps, without mana problems in most fights. And it gives some nice little features like crit aura, combat res, whatever. This means that you don´t need a moonkin for a successful raid. This means there may be other dps classes, that have advantages in certain fights. The last two sentences are true for all dps classes.

Compare the moonkin with the 2nd mage (we all want water and an Int buff, right?), the 2nd, maybe 3rd warlock, the 2nd SP, a hunter, rogue, off warrior. Switching one of those DD with a Moonkin will not kill your raid, believe me. In very rare circumstances, a Moonkin can even save the whole evening.

Our first Moonkin appeared when we raided BWL. Nefarian's gone, the Moonkin is still there ;-)

• Cluey · 04/21/07, 9:26 PM

Well this thread started out quite well and got better with numbers, then some passionate and opinionated people came and spamed it all up

This thread needs to get back on track.

Anduryondon · 04/22/07, 6:05 AM

Yeah, it would be nice if we can see some more numbers and maybe a dps calculator, similar to vontres spreadsheet in some time

Darkmantle · 04/22/07, 7:07 AM

Damage got added onto subtlety in the resto tree in 2.1. Which gives 20% less threat to moonkin so agro is going to be far less of a problem.

Boevis · 04/22/07, 8:27 AM

Originally Posted by Anduryondon

Yeah, it would be nice if we can see some more numbers and maybe a dps calculator, similar to vontres spreadsheet in some time

Modeling something like Natures Grace with cyclical based casting is a pain in the ass. If I understood probability better I could come up with a model and finish the moonkin portion of my spreadsheet. Modeling NG with strait SF casting is easy enough, the problem comes from adding IS and MF which definately add a good deal of DPS. Thus far, everyone I've asked on these boards has been unwilling to tackle the issue. If anyone would like to take a shot at it ...

When dealing with this cycle, it's important to know exactly how many crits you get, and which spell crits. Ex Cycle is IS-MF-SFx3 assuming no lag. With only 1 NG proc you add a wrath and have a 13 second cycle instead of 12. 2 procs you add wrath for a 12.5 sec cycle. 3 procs you add either a wrath for a 12 sec cycle or starfire for a 13 sec cycle. 4 procs you add starfire for 12.5 sec cycle. Critting on the spell before a wrath is meaningless unless there's lag involved. Whatever the last spell in the cycle ends up being, because it has a chance to crit, it increases the chance that my first Starfire will be faster.

How the hell do I model something like that? I can picture it, but I just can't do it, and it's making me feel really stupid having forgotten almost everything from statistics.

And then there's lag, but I'm pretty sure I can handle that once I actually start working on the spreadsheet again.

Right now, with the load of consumables available and a stacked group, I believe a druid could sustain 1200 DPS with +900 dmg, 13% hit, 25% crit csheet before buffs with ~200 latency.

FunBall · 04/22/07, 7:04 PM

You would need to build each possibly cycle. Zero NG procs, 1 proc, 2 procs, etc. And build your cycle based on what happened.

You would then calculate the damage output of each cycle and the total duration of the cycle.

Then, you could calculate the probability of each cycle based on the number of starfires and wrath spells you were casting in the given cycle, along with your crit rate.

The other way to go would be to create a program that would take your spell damage and crit and cast the biggest DPS spell next (never casting IS or Moonfire if it is already up). Then run in through 100,000 cycles or so. I do not have the programming knowledge to do this right now, although maybe I'll dust off Matlab and try at some point.

Boevis · 04/23/07, 6:33 PM

Could you tell me how to figure out the probability though, that's the problem.

For IS-SFx3-wrath is it:
0 Crit: (1-C)^4
1 Crit: (C*(1-C)^3)*4
2 Crit: ((C^2)*(1-C)^2))*6
3 Crit: ((C^3)*(1-C))*4
4 Crit: C^4

Or something different?

Yes · 04/23/07, 7:45 PM

Assuming build something like this:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=0tMrzifsguAZZxMI

I threw together a five minute spreadsheet

you can like, edit the green stuff. Maybe I'll expand it into a full spreadsheet later. Now, lurkerbelow must die

Edit: Ps, adding a second shadowpriest to a group makes everyone lol as a lot of extra mana is wasted.

p.p.s: Dps of a full sustained arcane blasting mage is about 300 more then a fireball mage. That is 1600 vs 1300 ~(2/5 t5)
mana per minute is something like 9k after pots, gems, shadowpriest, jow, spirit...

nikitabanana · 04/24/07, 10:43 AM

1Compiling it into 1 post.

nikitabanana · 04/24/07, 11:06 AM

Compiling it into 1 post.

Yes · 04/24/07, 1:00 PM

Nikita, I don't think your numbers for the lag free analysis ar ecorrect at all.

In fact, I think you're doing your math terribly wrong!
Either you are skipping on some major raid debuffs, talents, or something.

Here's my math:

Assuming a shaman
Damage=((avg dmg)+(spelldmg+int*0.25+121)*1.2)*misery*cos*1.1 (for talent)

This nets 3313.718 damage at 1200 spellpower.

add in crit, dmg * crit chance (1.3) = 4307.8334

after hit: =dmg*(1-MAX(1,17-(hit+7 (<<< 3 from shaman, 4 from talents))/100 (basically *.99 at this hit)

nets

4264.755066

at 3.0 casting speed, and talent speed reduction on average of (crit *.5) - casting time, we get 2.85 casting time, and 1496.405 non latency dps. adding .4 s lag we still get 1312.23 dps.

dpm etc is of course proportionally higher.

Please someone point out any errors in my calculations. Feel free to plug in numbers in above attached spreadsheet.

EDIT: I know I just did the math on a chaincasting starfire sequence, but that's the point. Threat caps or not. Adding in ff/insect swarm will simply mean multiplying by (duration - (cast time + lag))/duration

nikitabanana · 04/24/07, 1:15 PM

-balance_of_power 2
-dreamstate 3
-focused_starlight 2
-improved_moonfire 2
-innervate 1
-intensity 3
-lunar_guidance 3
-moonfury 5
-moonglow 3
-moonkin_form 1
-natures_grace 1
-starlight_wrath 5
-vengeance 5
-wrath_of_cenarius 5

are the talents I'm using.

I'm right btw.

nikitabanana · 04/24/07, 1:18 PM

Compiling it into 1 post.

Yes · 04/24/07, 1:45 PM

Okay, dropping spelldamage by 121, dropping int to 0, having NET starfire crit at 30% (30.05) I get: 1325.790 dps at 0 lag, 1162.467 at reasonable lag. (.4)

the way I model crits taking off spell cast time is:

Cast =3-0.5*(critchance)

When I multiply your result by misery/shadows, I get 1347.885 which is very close to what my number is. Actually, it is higher!

nikitabanana · 04/24/07, 1:52 PM

Compiling it into 1 post.

Derrida · 04/24/07, 1:58 PM

Assuming you've got access to anything T5 or equivalent cloth/crafted what kind of damage/crit is attainable? 1321 seems unreasonably high.

nikitabanana · 04/24/07, 2:35 PM

...Compiling it all.

nikitabanana · 04/24/07, 4:16 PM

Compiling it into 1 post.

Yes · 04/24/07, 4:39 PM

Model the shadowpriest as a straight up 250 mp5, add jow (37 mana every hit, at 3.2s cast = 57~ mp5.
Are you also modeling the int to mp5 (50~ mp5) Spirit regen (let's say 40 mp5), potion for 80 mp5?
The above gives about 6k mana every minute, basically countering the mana use.

Model the cooldown/cast time as cast time/cooldown + .3 or .4~ s (- for cooldown, + for cast time) to bring it in line with latency.
As we can see roughly after sticking in a shadowpriest with a moonkin, the oomkin relies on the mana from spriest to get mana.

Some notes: The build relies on 5 (or 6) crafted items. Gear is basically identical to a fire mage.
Compared to a fire mage with same gear we see expected dps be about 175 less (Depending on shaman dps, this seems to give no increase in raid dps over a fire mage, but it does not give a net decrease ever)
Aggro is a little bit more twitchy. It basically comes down to oomkin scaling worse with latency, and mage scaling better with spelldamage (imp scorch does not exist for oomkin, etc).
From my calculations, no matter how many shadow priests you stick in a group, arcane blast is simply not scaling well enough mana wise to count on arcane mages, even if they can put out short term 2000+ dps.

In closing, we have concluded nothing.

nikitabanana · 04/24/07, 4:52 PM

Originally Posted by Yes

Model the shadowpriest as a straight up 250 mp5, add jow (37 mana every hit, at 3.2s cast = 57~ mp5.
Are you also modeling the int to mp5 (50~ mp5) Spirit regen (let's say 40 mp5), potion for 80 mp5?
The above gives about 6k mana every minute, basically countering the mana use.

Model the cooldown/cast time as cast time/cooldown + .3 or .4~ s (- for cooldown, + for cast time) to bring it in line with latency.
As we can see roughly after sticking in a shadowpriest with a moonkin, the oomkin relies on the mana from spriest to get mana.

Some notes: The build relies on 5 (or 6) crafted items. Gear is basically identical to a fire mage.
Compared to a fire mage with same gear we see expected dps be about 175 less (Depending on shaman dps, this seems to give no increase in raid dps over a fire mage, but it does not give a net decrease ever)
Aggro is a little bit more twitchy. It basically comes down to oomkin scaling worse with latency, and mage scaling better with spelldamage (imp scorch does not exist for oomkin, etc).
From my calculations, no matter how many shadow priests you stick in a group, arcane blast is simply not scaling well enough mana wise to count on arcane mages, even if they can put out short term 2000+ dps.

In closing, we have concluded nothing.

I meant 50mp/s. Also, I gave the oomkin 200 spirit, which is pretty much where they'd be fully raid buffed in dps gear, which is actually 37mana/5. I'm compiling this all into one post with the 900dmg #'s.

nikitabanana · 04/24/07, 5:26 PM

Originally Posted by Yes

Model the shadowpriest as a straight up 250 mp5, add jow (37 mana every hit, at 3.2s cast = 57~ mp5.
Are you also modeling the int to mp5 (50~ mp5) Spirit regen (let's say 40 mp5), potion for 80 mp5?
The above gives about 6k mana every minute, basically countering the mana use.

Model the cooldown/cast time as cast time/cooldown + .3 or .4~ s (- for cooldown, + for cast time) to bring it in line with latency.
As we can see roughly after sticking in a shadowpriest with a moonkin, the oomkin relies on the mana from spriest to get mana.

Some notes: The build relies on 5 (or 6) crafted items. Gear is basically identical to a fire mage.
Compared to a fire mage with same gear we see expected dps be about 175 less (Depending on shaman dps, this seems to give no increase in raid dps over a fire mage, but it does not give a net decrease ever)
Aggro is a little bit more twitchy. It basically comes down to oomkin scaling worse with latency, and mage scaling better with spelldamage (imp scorch does not exist for oomkin, etc).
From my calculations, no matter how many shadow priests you stick in a group, arcane blast is simply not scaling well enough mana wise to count on arcane mages, even if they can put out short term 2000+ dps.

In closing, we have concluded nothing.

Using the following buffs:
-balance_of_power 2
-dreamstate 3
-focused_starlight 2
-improved_moonfire 2
-innervate 1
-intensity 3
-moonfury 5
-moonglow 3
-moonkin_form 1
-natures_grace 1
-starlight_wrath 5
-vengeance 5
-wrath_of_cenarius 5
-curse_of_shadows 1
-malediction 3
-misery 5
-super_mana_potion 1
-spirit 150
-intellect 300
-innervate 1
-judgement_of_wisdom 1
-blessing_of_wisdom 1
-dark_rune 1
-mp5 250 <-- shadowpriest mp5.
-mageblood_potion 1
-level 70
-wrath_of_air 1
-flask_of_power 1
-brilliant_wizard_oil 1
-improved_divine_spirit 1

1 is either true or false, the ones iwth more then 3 indicate the talent levels.

900+dmg base before the above buffs like flasks, etc. 20 base crit, 16 base hit.
This takes into account personal innervate, the int mp5 talent, etc.

Basically, this is a moonkin completely fucking stacked out....with the entire raid centered around his dps.

Analyzing sequence: ffire/insect_swarm/starfire
Spell=ffire Rank=1 Dmg=0/0 Avg=0 DPS=0 DPM=0.00 MPS=2.78 DoT=40.0
Spell=insect_swarm Rank=6 Dmg=1864/1864 Avg=1845 DPS=137 DPM=12.68 MPS=10.78 DoT=12.0
Spell=starfire Rank=8 Dmg=2629/2754 CritDmg(34.0%)=5258/5508 Avg=3571 DPS=1262 DPM=11.62 MPS=108.55 Cast=2.8
Sequence Results: DPS=1210.4 DPM=35.2 MPS=34.4 DS=68% D/C=11.5 D/H=17.9 OOM=0sec DoT-Refresh=16%

As I said, this basically means that a group is designed around the moonkin to its optimize dps.

Interestingly, even with the shadow priest - throw in moonfire and you get a 50ish dps increase and go oom in 322s :P.

nikitabanana · 04/24/07, 5:33 PM

No totem of wrath (3%hit/crit) was applied , nor stormstrike (since it's arcane spells)+

Efejel · 04/24/07, 8:51 PM

1) You're underestimating spirit on the best pieces of Balance DPS gear.
2) The coefficients for Wrath & Starfire that are generally floating about are wrong: 132% for max rank Starfire ( (spell_dmg + (char_sht_dmg * 1.2) * 1.1) and 73.86% for max rank Wrath ( ( spell_dmg + ( char_sht_dmg * (2 / 3.5) ) + ( char_sht_dmg * .1 )) * 1.1 fit what is observed in game.

See a potential list of gear (pre-Tier 5 changes) at http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...80772&sid=1#11

The upshot: Projected char sheet values (unbuffed): 389 int, 235 spi, 11.98% hit (+4% from talent), 14.78% crit, 970 dmg

A night elf would have: +5 int, -2 spi
An aldor (not scryer) would have: -5 crit rating, +6 dmg (and would be using either Arcanist's Stone or Starkiller's Bauble in place of the Scryer's Bloodgem, so would have to min-max elsewhere slightly differently.