nikitabanana

If you think the spirit on the gear is worth getting the gear even though it's really low +dmg, you're entirely wrong.

wrong wrong wrong.

 

Efejel

I don't think it's worth getting, I'm just looking at the actual gear that's available in the game rather than arbitrarily pulling numbers out of the air.

Not to mention this set of gear has more +dmg than the one you mentioned (albeit lower crit) unless you were factoring in Lunar Guidance after the fact.

And don't forget an Idol: 55 dmg for Starfire or 25 dmg (not normalized for casting time) to Wrath.

EDIT: And Mystical Skyfire Diamond should also be included in serious calculations.

 

Boevis

Actually the +damage coef I stated are absolutely correct. All you did there is added the effects of Moonfury (Spell Mod) and called me wrong ;p The Damage coef for Starfire is 120%, the damage coef for wrath is still ~63%. The +10% modifier from Moonfury is multiplied after you add base damage and +dmg from gear.

 

Efejel

The only problem with doing it that way is that most people are using a source like wowhead ( http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=26985 ) to get their spell damage.

The actual spell pane values are greater than the numbers on Wowhead * 1.1.

Wrath(10) is 422-475 (not 419.1-471.9).
Starfire(8) is 605-711 (not 594 - 699.6).

 

Efejel

Consider this for ~1 wk. after 2.1 goes live (gear changes from 2.1 + Veiled Noble Topaz + new Elixir & Elixir restrictions)
Please let me know if you are aware of upgrades in any of these slots

Ancient Spellcloak of the Highborne - http://wowhead.com/?item=30735 (12 int, 16 crit, 33 dmg)
Adornment of Stolen Souls - http://thottbot.com/?i=59931 (15 sta, 17 int, 21 crit, 25 dmg)
Violet Signet of the Archmage - http://wowhead.com/?item=29287 (21 sta, 21 int, 14 crit, 26 dmg)
Ring of Recurrence - http://thottbot.com/?i=59976 (15 sta, 15 int, 19 crit, 23 dmg)
Scryer's Bloodgem - http://thottbot.com/?i=54563 (32 hit & 150 dmg / 280 heal : 15 sec @ 1.50 min)
Icon of the Silver Crescent - http://thottbot.com/?i=55084 (42 dmg & 153 dmg : 20 sec @ 2.00 min)
Gladiator's War Staff - http://wowhead.com/?item=24557 (48 sta, 32 int, 21 hit, 33 crit, 22 res, 187 dmg)
(L) Antlers of Malorne - http://thottbot.com/?i=54925 (22 sta, 25 int, 19 spi, {RS MS: 4 hit}, 20 crit, 32 dmg)
---{Runed Living Ruby (R), Mystical Skyfire Diamond (M)}
(L) Pauldrons of Malorne - http://thottbot.com/?i=54934 (17 sta, 21 int, 14 spi, {BS YS: 4 dmg}, 33 dmg, 4 mp5)
---{Potent Noble Topaz (RY), Glowing Nightseye (BR)}
(L) Chestpiece of Malorne - http://thottbot.com/?i=54932 (22 sta, 23 int, 16 spi, {YS YS BS: 4 hit}, 15 hit, 41 dmg)
---{Veiled Noble Topaz (RY), Veiled Noble Topaz (RY), Glowing Nightseye (BR)}
(C) Crimson Bracers of Gloom - http://wowhead.com/?item=27462 (18 sta, 18 int, 12 hit, 22 dmg)
(C) Soul-Eater's Handwraps - http://wowhead.com/?item=28780 (28 sta, 21 int, {YS BS: 4 dmg}, 18 crit, 34 dmg)
---{Veiled Noble Topaz (RY), Glowing Nightseye (BR)}
(C) Girdle of Ruination -http://wowhead.com/?item=24256 (18 sta, 13 int, {RS YS: 4 sta}, 20 crit, 39 dmg)
---{Glowing Nightseye (BR), Glowing Nightseye (BR)}
(C) Spellstrike Pants - http://wowhead.com/?item=24262 (12 sta, 8 int, {BS YS RS: 4 sta}, 22 hit, 26 crit, 46 dmg)
---{Runed Living Ruby (R), Runed Living Ruby (R), Runed Living Ruby (R)}
(C) Extravagant Boots of Malice - http://wowhead.com/?item=27821 (27 sta, 24 int, 14 hit, 30 dmg)

Enchants:
12 dmg ring x2
40 dmg weapon
15 crit, 12 dmg shoulders
+6 all stats, chest
15 dmg bracers
20 dmg gloves
20 sta, 35 dmg legs
12 stam boots
14 hit, 22 dmg helm

Consumables:
30 int, 30 spi Elixir of Draenic Wisdom
24 crit, 24 dmg Adept's Elixir
23 dmg, 20 spi Blackened Basilisk
14 crit, 36 dmg Brilliant Wizard Oil

Buffs:
40 int AI
18 int, 18 spi iMotW
50 spi, (10% spi -> dmg) iDS
49 mp5 iBoW
10% stats BoK

Expected Char Sheet values:
505 int, 334 spi, 11.90% (+4% BoP) chance to hit, 20.01% (+4% FS, 5% moonkin) chance to crit, 1454 +dmg, 228 mp5 (inc. 3/3 intensity & 3/3 dreamstate)

 

Caliane

Marshal's silk cuffs are still the best Im pretty sure. Even more so in 2.1.0 with epic craftable gems.

Havent done the math, but I would suspect neths tear, and ring of the fallen god are also still tops pre-BT, TK loot.

 

Efejel

Neth's Tear & Ring of the Fallen God are from pre-BC content. Do some Druids have them? Yes. Are they generally useful for these comparisons? I'd say they're not, because most Druids don't have them & most guilds are going to go back & repeat that content in order to gear up a Moonkin.

Bracers of Havok > Marshall's Silk Cuffs. And unless you get the hit rating somewhere else, Crimson Bracers of Gloom > either.

EDIT: Just did the math & Sparkling Arcanite Ring > Ring of the Fallen God (at these damage levels). Neth's Tear beats the Icon if you don't use the active buff intelligently (and/or need the +hit).

 

Efejel

If you assume an Elemental Shaman in the group, the optimal gear choices become:

Ancient Spellcloak of the Highborne - http://wowhead.com/?item=30735 (12 int, 16 crit, 33 dmg)
Adornment of Stolen Souls - http://thottbot.com/?i=59931 (15 sta, 17 int, 21 crit, 25 dmg)
Violet Signet of the Archmage - http://wowhead.com/?item=29287 (21 sta, 21 int, 14 crit, 26 dmg)
Sparking Arcanite Ring - http://wowhead.com/?item=28227 (13 sta, 14 int, 10 hit, 14 crit, 22 dmg)
Neltharion's Tear - http://wowhead.com/?item=19379 (44 dam, 16 spell hit)
Icon of the Silver Crescent - http://thottbot.com/?i=55084 (42 dmg & 153 dmg : 20 sec @ 2.00 min)
Nathrezim Mindblade - http://wowhead.com/?item=28770 (15 sta, 15 int, 21 crit, 178 dmg)
Fathomstone - http://wowhead.com/?item=30049 (15 sta, 14 int, 17 crit, 33 dmg)
(L) Antlers of Malorne - http://thottbot.com/?i=54925 (22 sta, 25 int, 19 spi, {RS MS: 4 hit}, 20 crit, 32 dmg)
---{Runed Living Ruby (R), Mystical Skyfire Diamond (M)}
(L) Pauldrons of Malorne - http://thottbot.com/?i=54934 (17 sta, 21 int, 14 spi, {BS YS: 4 dmg}, 33 dmg, 4 mp5)
---{Veiled Noble Topaz (RY), Glowing Nightseye (BR)}
(L) Chestpiece of Malorne - http://thottbot.com/?i=54932 (22 sta, 23 int, 16 spi, {YS YS BS: 4 hit}, 15 hit, 41 dmg)
---{Veiled Noble Topaz (RY), Veiled Noble Topaz (RY), Glowing Nightseye (BR)}
(C) Bracers of Havok - http://wowhead.com/?item=24250 (12 int, {YS: 2 crit}, 30 dmg)
---{Runed Living Ruby (R)}
(C) Soul-Eater's Handwraps - http://wowhead.com/?item=28780 (28 sta, 21 int, {YS BS: 4 dmg}, 18 crit, 34 dmg)
---{Veiled Noble Topaz (RY), Glowing Nightseye (BR)}
(C) Girdle of Ruination - http://wowhead.com/?item=24256 (18 sta, 13 int, {RS YS: 4 sta}, 20 crit, 39 dmg)
---{Glowing Nightseye (BR), Glowing Nightseye (BR)}
(C) Spellstrike Pants - http://wowhead.com/?item=24262 (12 sta, 8 int, {BS YS RS: 4 sta}, 22 hit, 26 crit, 46 dmg)
---{Runed Living Ruby (R), Runed Living Ruby (R), Runed Living Ruby (R)}
(C) Ruby Slippers - http://wowhead.com/?item=28585 (30 sta, 27 int, 13 hit, 32 dmg)

Same buffs, enchants, consumables.

Expected Char Sheet values:
497 int, 339 spi, 9.04% (+4% BoP, 3% totem of wrath) chance to hit, 19.69% (+4% FS, 5% moonkin, 3% ToW) chance to crit, 1538 +dmg (+101 wrath of air), 218 mp5 (inc. 3/3 intensity & 3/3 dreamstate)

 

Yes

No matter how you look at it, spellfire/spellstrike sets are better for dps, sustained or not.

Second of all, at least I am doing the calculation you bring up, and since my numbers match nikita's, I assume (s)he is doing it as well.

I could say fireball gets 1.15 * 1.1 * 1.15 * 1.03 * 1.05 *1.13 *1.04 spelldamage.

 

Efejel

Chain-casting max-rank Starfire in this gear nets 1586.8 DPS.
Post 2.1 I think we can expect that Moonkin will not have Imp FF, and thus will not be keeping it up. As far as mana consumption... I'd have to leave that to someone with more patience than myself. My simplistic modeling below only suggests that the Moonkin will not OOM at an unreasonable rate.

Starting mana in said gear: 497*15 + 2370 = 9825
Total casts on base mana: 9825 / 336 = 29 (81 mana left)
Total cast time = 20 * 3 sec + 9 * 2.5 sec = 82.5 sec
Expected mana return from char sheet mp5 = 82.5 sec * (218 + 37.5) /5 = 4216 + 81
Addt'l casts afforded by regen: 4216 / 336 = 12 (184 mana left)
Total cast time = 8 * 3 sec + 4 * 2.5 sec = 34 sec
Expected mana return from char sheet mp5 = 34 sec * (218 + 37.5) /5 = 1737 + 184
Addt'l casts afforded by regen: 1921 / 336 = 5 (241 mana left)
Total cast time = 3 * 3 sec + 2 * 2.5 sec = 14 sec
Expected mana return from char sheet mp5 = 14 sec * (218 + 37.5) /5 = 715 + 241
Addt'l casts afforded by regen: 956 / 336 =~ 3
Total cast time: 2 * 3 sec + 1 * 2.5 sec = 8.5 sec

82.5 + 34 + 14 + 8.5 =~ 139 sec until OOM with 0 mana pots/dark runes & no innervate, shadow priest or JoW

EDIT: D'oh, I forgot to model meta-gem procs. DPS higher, OOM sooner.

 

Yes

Efejel: In real world dps you compensate for lag with casters. That usually includes adding between a .2 (optimistic) to .4 (realistic) delay to casting.

 

Efejel

Change offered by 3/3 Spellfire (including set bonus) and changes to other slots to accommodate loss of +hit

Expected Char Sheet values:
491 int, 321 spi, 9.20% (+4% BoP, 3% totem of wrath) chance to hit, 20.75% (+4% FS, 5% moonkin, 3% ToW) chance to crit, 1581 +arcane dmg (+101 wrath of air), 201 mp5 (inc. 3/3 intensity & 3/3 dreamstate)

-6 int, -18 spi, negligible +hit (both exceed cap), +1.06% crit, +43 arcane dmg (-129 nature dmg), -17 mp5

The lack of a meta socket on the the Spellstrike Hood makes it seem entirely undesirable.

As buffed (and with appropriate debuffs on the mob) Starfire(10) with this gear set is hitting for 3415 avg. non-crit for 1594 DPS (ignoring, as you note, latency). You'd expect Mystical Skyfire to add 2.5% DPS on average, or ~40 DPS.

Is (C) Spellstrike Hood - http://wowhead.com/?item=24266 (16 sta, 12 int, {BS YS RS: 4 sta}, 16 hit, 24 crit, 46 dmg)
really 40 more DPS than
(L) Antlers of Malorne - http://thottbot.com/?i=54925 (22 sta, 25 int, 19 spi, {RS MS: 4 hit}, 20 crit, 32 dmg) ?

 

Efejel

1538 +dmg, 19.69% crit with 0.2 sec latency: 1481.1 DPS (adding in idol: without is 1443.9 DPS)
1538 +dmg, 19.69% crit with 0.4 sec latency: 1388.6 DPS (w/o idol: 1353.8 DPS)

 

nikitabanana

If you're socketing for full dps - you won't be able to use a meta gem anyways.

With the set bonus, the fact you can get more dmg/crit on it on top of that base as well, and the fact that you won't have the ability to use a metagem unless you sacrafice insanely on the rest of your gear -

yes.

 

nikitabanana

http://ctprofiles.net/5309978

Not sure how people were coming up with 1500+dmg, but that's about 1210 unbuffed with the int talent included for base int.

 

nikitabanana

1538+dmg, 19.69 crit. I'm not sure what the idol you're talking about does - but if it's a +dmg gain you should just add it onto the top anyways >.<.

I'll assume you mean the 55 dmg starfire one...

Analyzing sequence: starfire
Spell=starfire Rank=8 Dmg=3211/3337 CritDmg(32.0%)=6423/6673 Avg=4279 DPS=1507 DPM=13.93 MPS=108.17 Cast=2.8
Sequence Results: DPS=1506.5 DPM=41.1 MPS=36.7 DS=72% D/C=15.8 D/H=21.1 OOM=2505sec DoT-Refresh=0%



Now, show me a ctprofile with 1538+dmg with 20 crit and 16 hit....

 

Yes

I think he is calculating flasks in, nikita. Flasks and shama totem, etc.

Also, we must understand that a proper cycle does involve a ff/insect swarm (Because we do not actually WANT a druid doing 1300 dps, because of a lack if a 10% reduction talent like mages/locks have)

 

Farstrider

Honestly, it's great theory craft, but you're going to be threat limitted not dps limitted in that gear, as Bias said in post #1.

John O'Groats to Lands End 2009 for Leukaemia Research

 

nikitabanana

Well, he was referring to 2.1 a lot. Being that flasks are 70dmg in 2.1, how do we get to 1538+dmg?

 

Maax

From the patch notes:

Druids
...
- "Subtlety" (Restoration Talent) now applies to all spells, not just healing spells.

http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=17122

Subtlety Rank 5
Reduces the threat generated by your spells by 20% and reduces the chance your spells will be dispelled by 30%.

Devs: Our nerfs will block out the sun!
Druids: Then we will tank in the shade.

 

Bendyr

Holy crap... Entangling Roots with a 30% chance to resist dispel effects? I may have to respec for Nature's Grasp again just cause it's going to be way too good in PVP...

 

Yes

So for subtelty we give up: Chance to be spell interrupted (celestial focus), force of nature, intensity.

 

Efejel

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=MxcrzicsguVZZxxcx
You don't have to give up intensity.

1) I was using no flask--Adept's Elixir, Blackened Basilisk and the 30 int, 30 spi guardian Elixir that is being added in 2.1
2) I listed every piece of gear, with a link, and every enchant, and every buff.

Ancient Spellcloak of the Highborne - http://wowhead.com/?item=30735 (12 int, 16 crit, 33 dmg)
Adornment of Stolen Souls - http://thottbot.com/?i=59931 (15 sta, 17 int, 21 crit, 25 dmg)
Violet Signet of the Archmage - http://wowhead.com/?item=29287 (21 sta, 21 int, 14 crit, 26 dmg)
Sparking Arcanite Ring - http://wowhead.com/?item=28227 (13 sta, 14 int, 10 hit, 14 crit, 22 dmg)
Neltharion's Tear - http://wowhead.com/?item=19379 (44 dam, 16 spell hit)
Icon of the Silver Crescent - http://thottbot.com/?i=55084 (42 dmg & 153 dmg : 20 sec @ 2.00 min)
Nathrezim Mindblade - http://wowhead.com/?item=28770 (15 sta, 15 int, 21 crit, 178 dmg)
Fathomstone - http://wowhead.com/?item=30049 (15 sta, 14 int, 17 crit, 33 dmg)
Ivory Idol of the Moongoddess - http://wowhead.com/?item=27518 (+55 dmg Starfire)
(L) Antlers of Malorne - http://thottbot.com/?i=54925 (22 sta, 25 int, 19 spi, {RS MS: 4 hit}, 20 crit, 32 dmg)
---{Runed Living Ruby (R), Mystical Skyfire Diamond (M)}
(L) Pauldrons of Malorne - http://thottbot.com/?i=54934 (17 sta, 21 int, 14 spi, {BS YS: 4 dmg}, 33 dmg, 4 mp5)
---{Veiled Noble Topaz (RY), Glowing Nightseye (BR)}
(L) Chestpiece of Malorne - http://thottbot.com/?i=54932 (22 sta, 23 int, 16 spi, {YS YS BS: 4 hit}, 15 hit, 41 dmg)
---{Veiled Noble Topaz (RY), Veiled Noble Topaz (RY), Glowing Nightseye (BR)}
(C) Bracers of Havok - http://wowhead.com/?item=24250 (12 int, {YS: 2 crit}, 30 dmg)
---{Runed Living Ruby (R)}
(C) Soul-Eater's Handwraps - http://wowhead.com/?item=28780 (28 sta, 21 int, {YS BS: 4 dmg}, 18 crit, 34 dmg)
---{Veiled Noble Topaz (RY), Glowing Nightseye (BR)}
(C) Girdle of Ruination -http://wowhead.com/?item=24256 (18 sta, 13 int, {RS YS: 4 sta}, 20 crit, 39 dmg)
---{Glowing Nightseye (BR), Glowing Nightseye (BR)}
(C) Spellstrike Pants - http://wowhead.com/?item=24262 (12 sta, 8 int, {BS YS RS: 4 sta}, 22 hit, 26 crit, 46 dmg)
---{Runed Living Ruby (R), Runed Living Ruby (R), Runed Living Ruby (R)}
(C) Ruby Slippers - http://wowhead.com/?item=28585 (30 sta, 27 int, 13 hit, 32 dmg)

Enchants:
12 dmg ring x2
40 dmg weapon
15 crit, 12 dmg shoulders
+6 all stats, chest
15 dmg bracers
20 dmg gloves
20 sta, 35 dmg legs
12 stam boots
14 hit, 22 dmg helm

The UNBUFFED stats: 364 int, 190 spirit, 9.04% chance to hit (NOT including BP), 15.61% crit (including crit from int, NOT including FS/Mk aura), 958 (+55 Starfire) +dmg (NOT including celestial focus), 4 mp5 (NOT including Dreamstate/Intensity).

Consumables:
30 int, 30 spi Elixir of Draenic Wisdom
24 crit, 24 dmg Adept's Elixir
23 dmg, 20 spi Blackened Basilisk
14 crit, 36 dmg Brilliant Wizard Oil

Buffs:
40 int AI
18 int, 18 spi iMotW
50 spi, (10% spi -> dmg) iDS
49 mp5 iBoW
10% stats BoK

3) Yes the starfire idol is what I was talking about, and is the only thing that changed between the italicized numbers & the other numbers.
4) The exact difference between the sets with the Mystical Skyfire Diamond and without DO NOT JUSTIFY USING ANYTHING BUT THE MYSTICAL SKYFIRE DIAMOND
5) All sets include only RARE CRAFTED GEMS (including one that will be available in 2.1, Veiled Noble Topaz) meaning there is some opportunity for slight increases with the crafted/dropped/PvP epic gems.

 

Caliane

Meta gems arent all that great in hindsight. At best just assume them to be 12 spelldamage really. Allowing the mp/5 enchant to boots. IF you are a tailor, then without question spellstrike helm/legs is the best. If not, the 2 piece malorne is about 10mp/5 for starfire, 20mp/5 for wrath,ff,is.
I have not really figured out the value of the 48s off innervate. I very much would make 2 and possibly 3 innervates possible on many fights they are not currently.

I really dont think others are reckognizing the value of spirit, or mp/5 for a druid. Earlier in this post we stated several times that the druid runs oom very early compared to others.
The 43 arcane damage gain is not compareable to the 17mp/5, and 18spirit for innervate mana regen. 17mp/5 is enough mana for another starfire every 100seconds. At that listed damage of some 1500raid buffed, thats an easy average 3000damage starfire hit, with 29% chance for 6000 crit. Averaging 3930 damage every 100 seconds. 43 damage is an average 85 damage per cast after buffs, and crit. Chain starfires at 3.2s cast w/lag for 31 casts, 2635 damage.
Only if you have some means to supliment your mana pool does pure dps supercede balanced damage, hit, crit, and mana for a balance spec.

The secondary issue with spellfire is the issue of balance utility.
What is a balance druid good for? wrath and healing.
The druid wont ever be desired for pure starfire dps.
But wrath is unique. Its the highest "pure" dps spell in the game.
Used in much raids atm? not really. Curator is the only real example of where wrath shines. 70% antipushback, high dps. You cant wait for curse of shadow, winterschill, fire vul to build up on curator adds, hydross spawns are another example, (though half are nature immune). Much trash needs to be dps'd down fast, and stacking debuffs is not feasible in these cases. Wrath is high dps naturally.
It is not a utility used much. but it is one of the few things the druid does have in its favor. Ignoring it as a druid would be silly.
Same with the +healing. If you need to heal, your dps is gone. the time and mana spent means your ability to dps was completely comprimised. But, again, its the one thing you do have. There is a reason the windhawk set exists.
spellfire is like walking without a safety net. A proper raid should never need rebirth. But not training it would be retarded now wouldnt it.
Being able to hold dps, and add some lifeblooms, rejuvs, regrowths on trickey transistions is pretty useful.

 

nikitabanana

Actually, assuming CoS is up and you don't have any kind of nature vuln - starfire is higher dps.