Darkmantle

For a partially resistable spell
Partial resist is factored in before the hit/crit
Proof: Good old crit + partial resist at the same time leading to a sigh of the timing of the partial resist.

As for whether full resist, hit and crit are on one roll I recall no definitive parse that demonstrates this, I will attempt to create one when I have less assignments to avoid. Problem is its very hard to find a good lvl 73 target to get a decent sample size on. With a 20% crit rate and no +hit at all you would see about a decrease in observed crit rate to 16.8% which would be rather hard to demonstrate to a sufficient degree given the number of lvl 73 targets just sitting around the place Oh for good old fordring how we do miss you.

To test it the best I can think of would be to cast too many low ranked spells at Dr boom with no hit gear and 4% hit gear and see if there is any statistically significant difference in crit rate. Somebody with a higher crit rate than my poor warlock would be good for this

 

Caliane

Clearly we need a level 67 fire mage!

 

• Efejel

( 451 + 509 ) / 2 = 480
( 335 + 393 ) / 2 = 364
480 - 364 = 116
116 / 702 = .1502
.1502 / 1.1 = .1365

265 + 266 + 265 + 266 = 1062
1062 - 660 = 402
402 / 702 = .5726
.5726 / 1.1 = .5205

( 492 + 555 ) / 2 = 523.5
( 366 + 429 ) / 2 = 397.5
523.5 - 397.5 = 126
126 / 702 = .1795
.1795 / 1.2 = .1496
Expected: 331 / ( 331 + 600 ) = 0.3555 * ( 1.5 / 3.5 ) = .1524


289 + 290 + 290 + 290 = 1159
1159 - 720 = 439
439 / 702 = .6254
.6254 / 1.2 = .5211
Expected: 600 / 931 = 0.6445 * ( 12 / 15 ) = .5158

 

◊ Yes

Surely if you're a moonkin you will be put in a shaman group (+101/121)
And your talent will give you another 120
And you might consumable for another 70 easy damage (weapon, elixir) << post 2.01 (I believe you can get 23+40+70 post 2.01 total)
And Imp Spirit will give you another 23~ damage

That leaves 980~ spelldamage from gear. Looks like a very very reasonable number with spellfire and other mage items!

Also, can we verify wrath coefficient with perhaps some tests?

I think it is (avg + spelldmg *1.1*2/3.5)*talents,modififers,etc

 

• Efejel

What tests do you want me to do? As I mentioned, I cast 250+ wraths with exactly 800 +dmg from gear & iMotW and got an observed minimum of 1013 (my coeff. predicts 1012.857) and observed maximum of 2130 crit (my coeff. predicts 2131.714).

 

• Efejel

Screenshot of SWStats record of 2130 crit & 800 +dmg from gear.

 

• Efejel

702 +dmg gear
5/5 Moonfury
Various points in WoC
Wrath rank 10 (422-475)
0/5: 863-916
1/5: 878.5-931
2/5: 893.5-947
3/5: 909-962.5
4/5: 924-977
5/5: 940-993

441/702 = .6282
456.25/702 = .6499 (+ .0217)
471.75/702 = .6720 (+ .0221)
487.25/702 = .6941 (+ .0221)
502/702 = .7151 (+ .0210)
518/702 = .7379 (+ .0228)

 

◊ Yes

I believe you, sir, and I have changed my calculations to reflect this increase in dpm and dps.

Wrath still looks barely chaincastable in raids (only sustainable with spriest and pots, but it does look like an excellent burn an add down tool, say for lurker below.

 

Lambach

The innervate every 5 minutes makes it doable pretty easily.

 

• Efejel

Yes, do you have any suggestions on the proper way to model latency & NG procs for Wrath?

If you're using a +0.4s latency model, normal Wraths would clock in at 1.9 sec cast time. Obviously, 1.9 / 1.5 is much worse than 3.4 / 3.0 and the lag-inclusive model of Wrath DPS suffers greatly. However, if we consider a post-crit Wrath with a 1.0s cast time + 0.4s latency, and round up to the GCD --> 1.5s, we end up with (1.9 / 1.5)*p + (1.5 / 1.5)*q where p = non-crit rate, q = crit rate.

I'm just not sure if you can do that. If you can, it changes the gear I'd suggest from 1014.4 DPS for chain-cast Wrath to 1100.1 DPS, not a small gain. The actual gains would include more proc based effects, especially Mystical Skyfire Diamond & trinkets (The Lightning Capacitor, Sextant of Unstable Currents, Quag's Eye).

Also, you mention that Wrath of Air totems can sometimes give 121 +dmg? I looked around and was unable to find a talent that would cause this. Is this a talent, or a set/item bonus?

 

Eylirria

Cyclone Regalia:

2: Your Wrath of Air Totem ability grants an additional 20 spell damage.

Set bonus for T4.

 

◊ Yes

The way I modeled it now was using an average: ie:

Cast time = 1.5 + latency -( .5 * crit rate ) I think this yields a fair aproximation of average cast time.

IF, if, on crits your cast time CAN NOT drop below 1.5 seconds (I am fairly certain it can, but this would require loatheb to test ) one can dig up a function in excel that rounds anything lower then 1.5 to 1.5 and to it via an average

*stupid mathematical plug I found relevant*


Two trains 200 miles apart are moving toward each other; each one is going at a speed of 50 miles per hour. A fly starting on the front of one of them flies back and forth between them at a rate of 75 miles per hour. It does this until the trains collide and crush the fly to death. What is the total distance the fly has flown?

When this problem was posed to John von Neumann, he immediately replied, "150 miles."
"It is very strange," said the poser, "but nearly everyone tries to sum the infinite series."
"What do you mean, strange?" asked Von Neumann. "That's how I did it!"

 

Darkmantle

I take it the pont is this:

Trains take 2 hours to meet one another.

The fly is flying at a constant speed of 75 miles per hour so will fly 150 miles before the trains meet.

On a more serious note does anyone have a balance druid with 40-50 ms that could seriously test wrath global cooldown with nature's grace?

 

• Efejel

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...93031997&sid=1

This is a thread I did to post how NG procs work with Wrath.

Here's the video (the slow, large file version): http://files.filefront.com/NGvsGSC3m.../fileinfo.html

 

Boevis

nervermind

 

• Efejel

I'd guess that the next thing this thread needs is some Mage/'lock DPS numbers, and an estimate of how much 5% crit adds to their DPS. And/or some solid math on how much DPS 3% melee hit adds to the raid (including consideration of %hit missing from top tanking gear & how much the aggro ceiling is raised with 3% hit). I'd think we could also use a solid estimate on how much mitigation -2% hit to various bosses is, and an estimate of how valuable that mitigation is in terms of healer mana--though I'm guessing it's of relatively low value on the whole, being effectively "spike" damage prevention.

On the other side of the coin, we could consider the Moonkin in the healer group option, with how much mana is/will be saved by a Paladin with 5% more spell crit, and how much mitigation the additional uptime (if any) Inspiration/Ancestral Fortitude would provide.

<DPS Option>
1) Moonkin
2) Shadow Priest
3) Elemental Shaman
4) Mage / Destruction 'lock
5) Mage / Dest 'lock

<Healing option>
1) Moonkin
2) Resto Shammy/Shadow Priest
3) Holy Pally
4) Priest w/ Inspiration
5) Another of 2,3, or 4

What would be helpful:
A) What qualifies as a "well-geared" Mage, what DPS specs & spell-cycles are popular, and how much DPS does 5% crit amount to in such an instance?

B) What qualifies as a "well-geared" Elemental Shaman, what DPS specs & spell-cycles are popular, and how much DPS does 5% addt'l crit amount to?

C) What qualifies as a "well-geared" Destruction Warlock, what DPS specs & spell-cycles are popular, and how much DPS does 5% addt'l crit amount to?

D) Are there any existing models for predicting the "uptime" of Anc. Fort/Inspiration?

Anyways, these are the things I'm curious to find out more about for better modeling the raiding impact Moonkin can have, and potentially for providing a primer for raid leaders as to why they should consider Moonkin as more than a wasted slot/battle res.

 

chase

Well geared raid mage is probably ~950 dmg 30% crit and a deep fire build (10/48/3).
Someone correct me if I am wrong.

Also have to include that a deep fire mage will get 30% mana returned on spell crits from master of elements.(MoE)

Straight dps boost:
+?c = (m+r*d)*b*?c/(2208*r*(1+b*c)) +damage where:
?c = crit rating =5% ~110.4 crit rating
m = average base damage =735 (avg base fireball)
r = +damage coefficient = 1.05
d = +damage = 950
b = critical strike bonus factor (usually 0.5 for most spells) = 1.1
c = crit chance = 30%

110.4 crit rating ~ 68.2 +dmg

That is just pure damage. Value of crit for MoE I will leave for someone else.

68.2 +dmg would increase dps by roughly 20 dps or 9%

 

◊ Yes

Mage: 6%* dps to fire mage, 7~% to arcane /fire mage. *mana savings
Spell cycles that are popular: mash fireball untill keyboard broken, refresh scorch.
Shaman: 6%* dps to a shaman. *mana savings
Spell cycles that are popular: mash lighning bolt untill keyboard broken, refresh totems.
Destruction Warlock: What is a destruction warlock? It'd be about 3.5% for a destro lock, and 1.7%~ to an affliction lock. Destro lock keeps corruption and immolate and spams shadowbolt or incinirate. Sometimes taps. Probably is CoS / CoE bitch. Affliction lock keeps corruption, siphon, immo, ua, coa, and spams shadowbolt. Sometimes takes pet mana, sometimes taps.

Healer +5% crit is really irrelevant, I personally have not seen an instance of a healing intensive fight so far where one could say "If only we crit 5% more" Crits simply turn into overheals in most cases other then fol.

3% melee hit for a rogue would be a 1.5%~ increase, for a dw warrior it'd be a 2.5% increase ~, druids and hunters would not notice it, for a shaman it'd be a 2~% increase.
Assuming special attack maxed.

 

Boevis

It's going to be 3.5% more threat to a tank (going from 83.2% 'miss' to 86.2%)

Feral druid (cat) definitely notice, Str and Agi are worth twice as much as hit to us, not because we don't value hit but because of our immense returns on Str/Agi, yet the cost the same statwise. While I'm not going to get 3% more Str/Agi with the gear available, I can pretty easily switch gear to get another 30 AP 1% crit, about 2% more DPS.

 

Sorilea

.....but will a spell hit rating of 151 be significantly subpar to warrant changing a +8 spell hit gem to +10?

We have just started MH and have done the first 3 Bosses in BT, but are still labouring on Kael in TK - all other T5 content has been cleared.

As one of 2 Moonkins in a small raid group, I just want to make sure that lack of Spell Hit rating isnt a problem.

Thanks in anticipation

 

Erdluf

Suppose that if you never miss you'd be at 2000 DPS. At 152 (or more) hit you'd be at 1980 DPS. At 151 hit you'd be at 1979.3 DPS. At that level that last point of hit is worth about 0.7 DPS.

If you are at the 1000 DPS level, that last point of hit is worth about 0.35 DPS.

Depending on crit rate and haste, with 4-piece t5 and CoE, a point of +spell is worth about 0.74 DPS.

Upgrading to the epic hit gem gives you the equivalent of something less than 1 +spell. Changing a 9 +spell to a 12 +spell would be a much better investment.

 

Kangee

Hi guys,
I just recently specced Moonkin and I hope it's OK if I ask you a question =)
Since last patch one can't swap Idols without interrupting the SF cast, so I was wondering whhat of the following yields more DPS

Option 1)
Use only SF Idol witch 1xMF 3xSF rotation

Option 2)
Use following macros

macro #1
/cast mf
/equip mf idol

macro #2
/cast is
/equip sf idol

With those macros above using a rotation like 1xMF,1xIS,3xSF

I hope this question hasen't been asked before, if so I sincerly apologize and hope you could give me the link to the answer.

If both option are wrong for max DPS it would be nice of you guys to point me to the right direction.

Thanks in advance,

Kangee

 

Benita

Try this not one year old thread: http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t11582-d...s_spreadsheet/
and dont forget this one: Druid: Balance

Cast rotations depend heavily on your gear level, its mentioned a couple of hundred times in the first thread. As for your question with the idol swapping, you could try to estimate the value of MF for about 70 spelldamage on the spreadsheet and then check if MF/4SF is more dps without the 70 spelldmg than a rotation including MF/IS. This would of course mean that idol swapping always has to work perfectly and not delay any spells because you got slight amounts of haste or press the macros early interupting spells.