I assume you mean the double Defender pulls because the Champions (those that can Fear) are very much CCable. From my experience, losing aggro there is nothing to be ashamed of because those pulls can be quite tricky on aggro. The reason being is that these mobs can shield bash stun you basically right after they are in melee range. And as we all know, stunned tanks generate zero threat but healing just can't stop just because you are stunned (on top of that you cannot dodge while stunned adding even more healing aggro).
That being said, I generally don't lose aggro on these mobs anymore unless a Rogue thinks it's a good idea to pop BF just after the pull; but he'll find out the hard way that you can't Taunt/Bash when you are stunned.

A big advantage Druids have over Warriors is the pull. Wrath one mob, MF both while sidestepping (reju up if you feel like it), pop Barkskin and go Bear. That will take care of the initial healing aggro, then Maul the mob the DPS is NOT attacking once to ensure he will not break through and attack your healer. Mangle and Maul the other Defender the DPS is attacking once, then Mangle the other Defender again and you can pretty much focus on keeping aggro on the Main Assist target with Mangle --> Maul --> Swipe rotation on the Defender that is being killed first with Swipe ensuring that the other Defender you are not actively attacking will not break through in the later stages of the fight.

In the case that a trigger happy DPS has gotten aggro by the time you were building aggro on both mobs (can happen if you get stunned right after the pull), you have two options: Either Taunt right away or Bash then Taunt. Both work really and they got their respective advantages and disadvantages:

Taunting has the advantage that you can use your Bash for damage mitigation purposes later on (Bash the Defender that is not being DPSed down for maximum effect because you can generally be sure that there will be no Diminishing Returns for stuns on that one).

Bashing it, then taunting just as the Bash duration runs out has the advantage that you basically get free threat from your DPS that pulled aggro AND since you don't have to build aggro on the stunned mob (since you will taunt it anyway) you can use the time to build even more threat on the mob that is not being attacked. The obvious disadvantage is that won't be able to use Bash reactively anymore in case you drop low on Health.

Hope that helps.

EDIT: Corrected the rotation from Mangle --> Mangle (doh) --> Swipe to Mangle --> Maul --> Swipe.

isn't diminishing returns something that only applies to pvp?

Stuns have diminishing returns in both PvP and PvE. Probably a few other things as well.

Easy to test with cyclone. Just try keeping a mob train cycloned and eventually you'll see the "immune" tag pop up.

Cyclone is diminishing for sure. That was a strategy we tried with Morose when we were short of priests. I don't recommend it unless you want an early wipe

Lacerate is indeed better for single target threat but in the situation of tanking the Defenders you already secured initial aggro on the two Defenders and Swipe on 2+ mobs is just better TP/S and TP/R than Lacerate on one mob. If there is only one mob I tank my priority is: Mangle --> Maul --> Lacerate --> Swipe. That usually means that I don't Swipe at all if TP/R and TP/S is all I cared about but I usually drop Lacerate in favor of Swipe at some point just to add more damage done (so the mob dies faster).

The only reason I ever use Wrath is because it has a travel time of roughtly 1.5-2 secs when cast at max range. That way you can actually get a Regrowth or Reju on you just when Wrath hits the mob. Basically, use Wrath over SF whenever you need that 1.5-2 sec more time before the mob reaches you (i.e. Wrath, Reju, MF two mobs, Barkskin then Bear).


And yeah, Stuns do have Diminishing Returns in PvE (unfortunately the same is not true for stuns applied to you by mobs ).

"Mangle --> Maul --> Lacerate --> Swipe"

I take it that this is in a endless rage situation? I normally prioritize lacerate above maul because a normal hit still builds threat with the added bonus of building rage. Lacerate on the other hand just uses a GCD. Now that maul doesn't have the threat multiplier it use to have, I find it's moved to 3rd on my list.

Is auto attack + lacerate greater threat then maul? Does anyone know what the threat for maul is right now? The only threads I could find were ones discussing some PTR numbers a while ago.

For those citing the 2300AP (1900AP with Idol) figures for Swipe being > Lacerate, has crit been factored into this?

As swipe threat scales directly with damage, and lacerate's threat is mostly inate (a 0.2 multiplier applied to the damage dealt) It seems like swipe would overtake lacerate in average TPS somewhat sooner than expected if crit's not accounted for in those figures.

I have done some figures for it and you can't say it's at 2000 AP or so because it's influenced in so many ways. I used that i'd call my average tanking scenario (with 35% crit and 15% mobarmor). With those stats the break even point is around 1900 AP - Idol of Brutality also factored in.

The rotation is actually what I use even when I have less rage available and it seems to work for me. Unfortunately I don't have the math to back it off myself and can't seem to find recent threads about it either.


Btw, did anyone on the PTR measure the new Mangle threat yet so we can compare it to the old Mangle? I know they said that Mangle threat should be effectively the same, but I doubt anyone of us would be surprised if they snuck a stealth nerf/buff/bug in there.

Because Maul replaces your auto-attack. This means it does less effective threat (maul minus auto-attack) and it costs rage instead of generating it.