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Oneiros · 04/21/07, 8:20 AM

The reason I quit playing my druid was for two reasons.

1) Tree of Life is awful. I parsed results for weeks and weeks of Naxx clears and found that even being incredibly liberal with HoTs, they still accounted for the majority of my overhealing and a very small amount (< 20%) of my effective healing.

2) Downrank nerf, which I'll admit isn't that bad, I kind of overreacted, but I'm happy with my new main.

Kazanir · 04/21/07, 9:26 AM

Druids rerolling gnome warriors make Kaz cry. (YES I'M LOOKING AT YOU ZYLA)

Cel · 04/21/07, 10:28 AM

Originally Posted by DecimusGarona

Heres a little bit of theorycraft (ok bear with me please).

I laughed. >_>

Litany · 04/21/07, 10:50 AM

Interesting theory, but you'd struggle on fights where damage is thoroughly spread between the raid. Think about Magtheridon phase 1->2 transition. Maybe if you had enough DPS to kill all the channelers before Mag spawns, but otherwise you're dealing with 1-2 channelers, infernals, and Magtheridon himself. It'd be very difficult for your ToL Druids to maneuver around (who are snared btw!) and use HoTs liberally enough to heal the entire raid.

I think any fight with chaotic damage would be difficult to deal with. This stems from the fact that HoTs are amazingly efficient on paper, but in truth they're probably the most inefficient spell in the game with poor throughput. If someone is missing 3k HP, you cast a Rejuv on them- so do four of your other Druids. As a Priest, I *very rarely* cast Renew on anyone but myself. It's just not worth the mana. GHeal is nearly as efficient on paper and in practice is almost assuredly more efficent. Single target heals are king right now and by far the most important thing in the raid, imo. Forgoing that may work in some situations with marginal improvements, but in my experiences it's generally better to stick with regular heals.

No, I don't think Resto Druids will be the new Holy Paladins. Without having played 2.1 in a raid situation, I have to say I think the healers are pretty balanced in raids. Resto Druids and Shaman are still a *little* weak in comparison I think, but it's difficult to say for sure until we're able to raid for awhile.

Cel · 04/21/07, 10:55 AM

Originally Posted by Litany

who are snared btw!

Is this still the case? I didn't think the tree form "snare" ever made it past the PTR.

Litany · 04/21/07, 11:02 AM

Originally Posted by Cel

Is this still the case? I didn't think the tree form "snare" ever made it past the PTR.

erm, seems you're right. my bad!

Edit: or not, misread the talent description when I checked.. snares by 20% according to WoWhead (I can't check the official one, it crashes for me

).

DecimusGarona · 04/21/07, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by Litany

If someone is missing 3k HP, you cast a Rejuv on them- so do four of your other Druids.

You see this is a problem with lack of organization, not a lack of usefulness. If you assign 1 healer to each group for topping off aoe damage, lifebloom is an incredibly efficient and fast way to bring multiple people up to full health. From a timing perspective, a single lifebloom will heal someone for a little over 2500ish, for 176ish mana and 1 global cooldown, you just need to wait 7 seconds for it to take full effect. That works out to over 1600 hp/s, and as long as you don't expect that person to die in the meantime or you don't have other healers attempting to ninja heal your targets with the specific intent of beating you on the healing meter, this is a perfectly viable way to top people up after something like a gruul shatter. Lifebloom is also the most mana efficient way to top off lifetapping warlocks.

Derrida · 04/21/07, 12:01 PM

Post illumination nerf paladins will still be able to sustain FoL spam almost indefinitely. An endgame geared paladin has around 2k+ healing and has a fol that averages around 1900 health restored. Call it a 1.6 second cast with lag and you've got 1187 hps. This requires all of the paladins gcds to do, but you can get the same hps mileage out of 4 paladins as you will with 6 druids.

DecimusGarona · 04/21/07, 12:12 PM

Originally Posted by Derrida

Post illumination nerf paladins will still be able to sustain FoL spam almost indefinitely. An endgame geared paladin has around 2k+ healing and has a fol that averages around 1900 health restored. Call it a 1.6 second cast with lag and you've got 1187 hps. This requires all of the paladins gcds to do, but you can get the same hps mileage out of 4 paladins as you will with 6 druids.

I honestly don't know how much lifebloom will heal for at 2k+ healing, the most I've gotten up to is a little over 1500 with raid buffs/etc (and I suppose 1600ish when you factor in the aura). I'm sure someone around here has some numbers on how lifebloom scales, but I think you are also missing my earlier point being that while the druids can sustain that level of healing on a single target through HoT stacking, they also have extra GCDs to heal other targets as well. The Paladins also don't provide the tank with +2% to dodge (per healer) while healing him, which frankly is probably the equivalent of 1 or 2 tiers worth of gear of mitigation (edit: with multiple 2/5 moonglade druids in the raid).

Playered · 04/21/07, 1:57 PM

One druid (1500~healing) should be able to maintain 3x 600~HPS for almost any length of fight, you could maybe squeeze in a 4th, or have Rejuv in there too:
MT - 600[Lifebloom] = 600HPS
OT1 - 600[Lifebloom] = 600HPS
OT2 - 600[Lifebloom]

[top] 600HPS
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1800HPS over 3 targets

It'll never allow for the 5sec rule regen but with a decent MP5 setup (gear/spec) and using appropriate consumables with Innervate too, its endurable.

While paladins may still be able to maintain higher HPS on one target, druids will be able to pull out ahead of them on encounters that require more than one tank.

This isnt even including the cheeze with sustained trinket-Lifeblooms, which would put it somewhat above 700HPS on the offtanks, and 930HPS on the MT (=2330HPS).

Note: I highly doubt a tree druid could sustain this as long as a dreamstate druid could.

[Estimated Math, not 101% accurate but close enough for general speculation]

Using Dreamstate spec:
2400MPM [200MP5 Raid buffs/gear]
600MPM [50MP5 BOW]
300MPM [25MP5 Flask]
1200MPM [Mana Pots]
=4500 Mana Per Min (No Innervate, no shaman totem, no SP)

Rounded up:
1900MPM [LB]
2100MPM [Rejuv]

The above 3x LB would cost 5700MPM, using the above consumables/buffs thats a loss of 1200MPM, so aslong as you have above 7200 max mana, your IV will cover the loss every 6mins and you will be able to maintain it (unless you have something shit like 200 spirit) indefinatly.

Shaman should add 450MPM. SP I cant honestly say how much they give in numbers, but giving one to the druids and they should be able to sustain 3 LBs + Rejuv with ease (600x3, +233 from Rejuv = 2033HPS over 3 targets).

You cant really do anything more because you will run into GCD issues (7/1.5 = 4.6), and im sure Rejuv would be wasted/inactive a couple of times during the fight if you want to maintain your Lifeblooms as prio (ie, if trinket powered).
2400HPS if your 4th spell was another Lifebloom, perhaps upto 3000HPS over 4 targets if you use trinkets to empower it and maintain it.

But remember getting this is assuming you being non-interupted, silenced, or having all tanks out of range from each other alot (ala 4HM), however some general movement should not effect your performance as each spell is instant.

re

ecimusGarona, I believe people are assuming the ticks of lifebloom, not the end-burst.

Kilmarnok · 04/21/07, 6:23 PM

Have any raids gotten together on the PTR to test the multi-druid lifebloom method of healing? I know it may be a challenge on everyone's regular realms, but the PTR allows more of a population of resto druids to congregate; the only difficult part would be getting the other raid members to agree to have druids be the primary healers by using HoT spells.

Then again, if we (druids) can get 40 of us together to down Onyxia, we could possibly pull this off ourselves...

DecimusGarona · 04/21/07, 6:31 PM

Originally Posted by Playered

Note: I highly doubt a tree druid could sustain this as long as a dreamstate druid could.

This is wrong and I'll use your own math to prove it.

Originally Posted by Playered

[Estimated Math, not 101% accurate but close enough for general speculation]

Using Dreamstate spec:
2400MPM [200MP5 Raid buffs/gear]
600MPM [50MP5 BOW]
300MPM [25MP5 Flask]
1200MPM [Mana Pots]
=4500 Mana Per Min (No Innervate, no shaman totem, no SP)

Rounded up:
1900MPM [LB]
2100MPM [Rejuv]

The above 3x LB would cost 5700MPM, using the above consumables/buffs thats a loss of 1200MPM, so aslong as you have above 7200 max mana, your IV will cover the loss every 6mins and you will be able to maintain it (unless you have something shit like 200 spirit) indefinatly.

Now taking the numbers you quoted, namely spending 5700MPM on keeping 3 lifebloom stacks going, and multiply it by 0.8, a tree would be spending 4560MPM. That is a difference of 1140 mp/minute, or 95 mp/5. Unless you happen to have over 950 intellect (which I doubt is even possible), this beats the pants off of dreamstate regeneration. If you toss in higher mana cost spells such as rejuvenation or regrowth, the equivalent mana regeneration for tree becomes much higher, though you may also go out of mana eventually with the unforeseen added expenditures. While this doesn't take into account loss of decurse/depoison/other abilities, I believe this does provide the highest indefinitely sustainable HPS in the game bar none.

Another aspect to consider is that if you are healing entirely with HoTs, then the 5 points in empowered rejuvenation (which affects all HoTs despite the poor name?) is unreachable if you also have 33 points in balance for dreamstate.

Obviously 33/0/28 is the route to go for healing touch as a main healing spell, but if you plan on using HoTs deep restoration is clearly the superior choice (despite the frustrating lameness of tree form).

dukes · 04/21/07, 6:41 PM

Another thing to mention is that you will almost certainly pick up the 15% more spirit talent, so you'll end up with more regen from that. If you then gear slightly more in favour of spirit (using Bangle of Endless Blessings instead of a mana/5 trinket, for example) you can gain a lot out of it. Oh, and 25% more effectiveness on Lifebloom because of Empowered Rejuve, AND the tree bonus on top. The effectiveness of a Tree-specced druid for pure HoT healing massively outdoes a Dreamstate healing spec.

One thing to mention, which I just mucked about with on Test server, is that when you use the Bangle of Endless blessings and stack lifebloom, the amplify effect from tree-forms +spirit bonus continues after the use effect wears out. The effect from Fecundity (Ribbon of Sacrifice trinket) doesn't however. Seems like Amplify Magic and Tree form's aura apply different rules to the Ribbon, which is quite weird. I was able to get a 718 tick of Lifebloom with full stack of Ribbon/Essence of the Martyr active though, so in a raid situation with Amplify and more +healing (running ~1350 on test, ~520 spirit so add another 130ish for tree aura) I can see Tree's keeping 750/800+ stacks running constantly on people in their group (those affected by aura), which is rather good really.

DecimusGarona · 04/21/07, 7:27 PM

LC Prayer book is also a very good tree longevity trinket, if you bind the trinket to your lifebloom spell, and assuming you cast 8 lifeblooms while the trinket is active (accounting for latency, and that you might not be using every GCD that is available), it works out to an equivalent of saving 176 mana every minute, or 14.6 mp/5 and +70 heal equivalent.

Can anyone do the math on the Bangle and how it affects mana regeneration over time? Currently I am using it as my 2nd trinket with the prayer book as my first, but once I get enough badges for Essence of the Martyr I'm not sure which trinket to replace. Having a +spirit buff for innervate is pretty nice, I'm just not sure how it works out in the long run when compared to other trinkets.

Kazanir · 04/22/07, 2:23 AM

Originally Posted by dukes

I can see Tree's keeping 750/800+ stacks running constantly on people in their group (those affected by aura), which is rather good really.

It's so good it will be in danger of a nerf. Imagine just bringing 3 such druids to a raid. All of a sudden they can keep the main tank healed of 2400+ DPS just be refreshing a stack every 7 seconds. It's a stable 2400 hp/s too...the granularity of the heals is very low. Unless your MT could get killed from full->0 in under a second, he's going to get a tick of that healing. This is what makes Lifebloom superior to the other HoT spells. Meanwhile, it's easy to either heal others with a Lifebloom stack or keep a Rejuv up on the tank and use Swiftmend (and maybe NS Regrowth) to cover damage spikes just in case while a couple "normal" healers top off whatever the several thousand points of HoT healing aren't.

[top] 600HPS Total

[top] 600HPS
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