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Old 04/22/07, 3:39 AM   #31
dukes
Bald Bull
 
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Dukes
Tauren Druid
 
No WoW Account (EU)
Originally Posted by DecimusGarona View Post
Can anyone do the math on the Bangle and how it affects mana regeneration over time? Currently I am using it as my 2nd trinket with the prayer book as my first, but once I get enough badges for Essence of the Martyr I'm not sure which trinket to replace. Having a +spirit buff for innervate is pretty nice, I'm just not sure how it works out in the long run when compared to other trinkets.

15% mana regen in casting, proc rate seems ~1/min (internal cooldown, etc).
If you get 1 mana/tick from 4.5 spirit (thanks boevis), and assuming 15 mana/tick base:
400 spirit = 104/tick = 260 / 5
500 spirit = 126/tick = 315 / 5
600 spirit = 148/tick = 370 / 5
700 spirit = 171/tick = 427.5 / 5
800 spirit = 193/tick = 482 / 5

So say you have 600 spirit and 0 mana/5, and then you get one proc/min. Assume that every 6 minutes you use the trinket 3 times and one of them co-incides with the bangle proc.

If you are constantly in the 5 second rule, that means you get 5 lots of 30% regen (15 sec), 1 lot of boosted 30% regen (15 sec - ignore the 5 secs of extra from the other regen), 1 lot of boosted 15% regen (20 sec), and one innervate with boosted regen.

600 spirit: 370/5 would be 56/5 with 15% regen, or 112/5 with 30% regen.
730 spirit: 443/5 would be 67/5 with 15% regen, or 134/5 with 30% regen.

5 lots of 30% regen (15% extra): 56mana/5 over 15 secs = 168 mana back each = 840 mana
1 lot of boosted 30% regen (15% + 130 spirit extra): 67/5 over 15 secs = 201 mana back = 201 mana
1 lot of boosted 15% regen (130 spirit extra): (134*4 - 112*4 = 88) mana back = 88 mana
1 lot of innervate with boost (400% + 130 spirit): 72*4*4 = 1155 mana if your mana pool can support it which it should be able to if you're refreshing during it.

So over a 6 minute period, assuming you're using it like this with 600 spirit (not unreasonable imo) and you're getting 1proc/min average, you get 2284 mana total, 381mana/minute, or ~32mana/5. That's assuming I got the maths right, obviously. You also get the benefit of ~30 more +healing to the aura if you're using tree form. Innervate really makes the trinket shine as without it you'd "only" get 18-19 mana/5 total out of it.

Last edited by dukes : 04/22/07 at 5:57 AM. Reason: changed value of spirit.

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Old 04/22/07, 4:19 AM   #32
Exewut
Soda Popinski
 
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Orc Warrior
 
Al'Akir (EU)
Originally Posted by Kazanir View Post
It's so good it will be in danger of a nerf. Imagine just bringing 3 such druids to a raid.
They don't nerf underpresented classes mostly, bears only got nerfed until everyone and his mother got a feral. I'm more than happy to see this buff, as it is now we usually only have 1 resto in most of our raids, and only 2 in our guild. If this change totally overpowers resto's and makes it so we have 1 more Battlerezz in our raid I'll be very happy, but somehow I just don't see that happen.

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Old 04/22/07, 4:59 AM   #33
Boevis
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Tauren Druid
 
Lightbringer
Spirit/4.5 Dukes, iirc.

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Old 04/22/07, 6:04 AM   #34
dukes
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Dukes
Tauren Druid
 
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Originally Posted by Exewut View Post
They don't nerf underpresented classes mostly, bears only got nerfed until everyone and his mother got a feral. I'm more than happy to see this buff, as it is now we usually only have 1 resto in most of our raids, and only 2 in our guild. If this change totally overpowers resto's and makes it so we have 1 more Battlerezz in our raid I'll be very happy, but somehow I just don't see that happen.
Our normal raid setup is 8 or 9 healers. 3 Paladins always (blessings), 2 healing priests normally (at least one with spirit), 1-2 shamans, 1-2 druids. Shamans are always nice, as although their healing power is (generally) slightly less than the other healing classes, totems for another group easily outweighs any negatives on that side, and they have chain heal/earth shield. Of our 2 healing druids, one is 27/0/34 and the other is 1/0/60 but doesn't use tree for raiding, and very often comes top 2-3 of effective healing (was top of effective on leotheras by about 10% which may just be luck of getting 5k+ heals off on the tank at the right time).

I still don't see why Tree has a slowing effect on it - the fact you can't depoison/curse is enough of a hindrance (or do the opposite and let depoison/curse work and leave the slow - its a 41 point talent so theres no way it should have so many detrimental effects.)

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Old 04/28/07, 9:55 AM   #35
fr0d0b0ls0n
Von Kaiser
 
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Pandaren Monk
 
Sanguino (EU)
Originally Posted by Mencius View Post
I am 27/0/34... I smoke pure resto druids constantly. Tree just cannot keep up with a smart hybrid druid. Even our feral/restos can sometimes beat the tree druids.

I'm not going to derail anymore, but tree really stinks, IMO.
How do you compare? With a healing meter that counts the last tick of Lifebloom to other players? (And that tick can be a 25% of a TOL heal). I always win in heal every other class if i take in count the overheal (a TOL has like 10-15%, not 25-30%). And I'm talking about now, not 2.1.

TOL isnt for main healing anyway (not very efficient, but i do Heroics in TOL as the only healer) but is great for stacking HOTs on the tanks and healing for virtually no mana the raid. Healing 2794 (what i heal now) for 176 mana is great for ppl that dont need uber fast heal.

And, sometimes, as a gift, chaining single Lifeblooms I give the tank 96 TPS.

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Old 04/28/07, 12:22 PM   #36
Mencius
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Dunemaul
[Druid] HoT Build vs. HT Build After Patch

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Old 04/28/07, 1:50 PM   #37
Lupison
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Night Elf Druid
 
Argent Dawn
Okay this thread is about ToL being a main tank healer. As a Tree I disagree with that. Trees just can't MT heal, we jsut can't. But that's the point of the trees.

The purpose of Trees is to be a hot machine on raids to cancel out all those lovely AE spells pretty much every single boss in BC has. The other purpose of a tree is to take spirit items over regen items.

Personally on Test my 3 stacks are hitting 560. Even thoguth this seems large, compared to 2-3 pallies spaming the tank it's like an ant. It's just there to give a slight boost to the tank so he lives just a tad bit longer. It's pretty obvious to me Trees were just meant to be the raid healers.

And as for this whole "IWONDAMAGEMETERSME>YOU" argument. Of course a tree will more than likely be the #1 or #2 overhealer, they can't control that. They see a guy taking damage they're gonna slap a hot of some sort on them, there's no way for them to tell "let see, I think he'll get for exactly 2k damage, so I should do rank 4 of this paticular hot". That's just doesnt happen.

I'm very spirit heavy in my gear, breaking 600 with full buffs, and if I ever get Nightbane's staff it'll be 660. And I never have major mana issues. I always use just as many potions as the priests and our HT druid, if not the same then less.

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Old 04/28/07, 1:56 PM   #38
Monsanto
Don Flamenco
 
Tauren Druid
 
Mug'thol
Originally Posted by Lupison View Post
And as for this whole "IWONDAMAGEMETERSME>YOU" argument. Of course a tree will more than likely be the #1 or #2 overhealer, they can't control that.
One thing about HoTs is that they generally don't show up on the healing meters (though I'm sure the lifebloom bomb would). Overall, that's probably a bad thing since it hides information from you that you could use to improve your game. But it's awfully nice to impress girls with your kickass overheal percentage.


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Old 04/28/07, 4:14 PM   #39
dukes
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Dukes
Tauren Druid
 
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Originally Posted by Lupison View Post
Personally on Test my 3 stacks are hitting 560. Even thoguth this seems large, compared to 2-3 pallies spaming the tank it's like an ant. It's just there to give a slight boost to the tank so he lives just a tad bit longer. It's pretty obvious to me Trees were just meant to be the raid healers.
3 stack of lifebloom, trinketted, ticks for 650+ without amplify magic on test (1400 base healing, +288 from trinket) for me. Add in Rejuve for ~800, regrowth for ~400 and you end up with 1k healing per second on a single target if you keep everything up. That's maybe slightly less than FoL spam from a paladin, but you get about half the time free for keeping hots up on other people and it's more mana efficient as a tree in general.

The point of having a tree keeping hots up on MT is that in between those two crushing blows for 4.5k you get a load of hot ticks, which effectively turn those crushings into normal hits whilst you continue to raid heal. It's a buffer against burst damage, as other people have said, and the reaction time is non existant, plus you can always swiftmend for a pretty decent amount (2.5k+).

The bloom shows up as a person healing themselves, "your Lifebloom heals you for 1156" or whatever, not the person who cast it (same mechanic as Prayer of Mending/LoTP/Judgement of Light).

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Old 04/28/07, 7:05 PM   #40
wilfan
Von Kaiser
 
Draenei Shaman
 
Kazzak (EU)
Originally Posted by DecimusGarona View Post
The fact that its actually worse than useless in PvP is also extremely lame (yes I actually heal as a resto druid in PvP, please don't mock me).
One of the tree druids I sometimes run 5 mans with went into arena in a tree form the first time. Against a warlock. Got banished.

This would never happen to a (holy) pala, so druids definitely aren't taking their place.

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Old 05/01/07, 7:55 PM   #41
Sonrise
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Hyjal
Tree Form in my opinion is essential in some encounters. After reading all the replys I can see some of you thought like I did, until I tried it with the right build and stats.

Personally, HOTS are the ultimate dmg mitigators. I dont' know about you but I hate those fights where the tanks HP is jumping from 100% to 20% and so forth constantly. Hots prevent this spiking dmg from happening. I simply run Regrowth, Rejuv, and Lifebloom (1x stack, repeated as it procs) to mitigate the dmg. If I see a significant spike, I hit swiftmend and often paired with Lifebloom brings the tank back up. I only stack Lifebloom 3x if it is a critical moment (such as Gruul's AE silence) however this could change in 2.1 for me.

Also, you can stack Lifebloom 3x and refresh it every 6 sec. With the right stats you can actually GAIN mana from this.

If you believe HOTs aren't worth it then simply stop laying hots and cast HT and you'lll see what the difference is. HT hits hard but it's wayyy to slow. It's not like pre-BC where we could get 2 sec casts of HT that hit for a decent amount.

Also, the tree aura is essential as well. if you are in the main tank group and within 45 yards of the MT, according to the tool tip (since they changed it) every single heal on that MT from anyone in the raid will get that buff. With 600 spirit, that's 150+healing. Ever since I switched to spirit it has seemed to make a difference.

Also, there is a quote in this forum that I had to respond to:

I am 27/0/34... I smoke pure resto druids constantly. Tree just cannot keep up with a smart hybrid druid. Even our feral/restos can sometimes beat the tree druids.

I'm not going to derail anymore, but tree really stinks, IMO.
You are basing this on healing meters, which is the most inaccurate way to gauge healing for a tree druid, because you do not recieve any registery of hots in the combat log if the target has full health. The only time tree druids will "smoke" you is if they are instructed to heal the entire raid in a mass dmg encounter. The only guaranteed credit we get is regrowth and lifebloom procs.

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Old 05/02/07, 4:29 AM   #42
dukes
Bald Bull
 
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Dukes
Tauren Druid
 
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Originally Posted by Sonrise View Post

You are basing this on healing meters, which is the most inaccurate way to gauge healing for a tree druid, because you do not recieve any registery of hots in the combat log if the target has full health. The only time tree druids will "smoke" you is if they are instructed to heal the entire raid in a mass dmg encounter. The only guaranteed credit we get is regrowth and lifebloom procs.
Lifebloom actually works along the same mechanic as Prayer of Mending, where it shows up as healing done by the person you cast it on (say I were to cast it on someone called Bob, it would be "Bob's Lifebloom heals them for 1200" not "Dukes's Lifebloom heals Bob for 1200"), so it's not guarenteed. I'm pretty sure most people forget this and so assume that Tree's are pretty worthless for healing when you look at healing meters. It does help to cut down on overheal % though

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