Caster "Group of Death" - Page 2

Northerner · 04/22/07, 2:33 PM

We run a Spriest, EleSham, Mage, Mage, Destro Lock combination quite often and with great success. At this point though it's pretty much a given that we'll need a spriest in with our mages (10/48/3 specs) and whichever elemental shaman are around. I refuse to use a moonkin and I'm not sure I'm sold on the synergy there anyhow (we don't have one so it's moot I suppose).

There is definitely a need to make caster packs just like melee packs for optimal dps. At this point I'm even gearing around assumed totem for the 3% hit and without question I am in a world of hurt manawise if I cannot get a shadowpriest for a long fight. On the downside though, it makes evaluating performance a nightmare with so many people varying so greatly depending on what group buffs they are getting.

Nfariessence · 04/22/07, 5:14 PM

Arcane Mages are the king of dps, if they have unlimited mana (20 Arcane mages on Vael? lol). Other than that, there is really no conceivable group makeup that can keep an Arcane going full tilt for greater than 3-4 minutes. And after that they're relegated to normal dps or even worse, wanding. The problem with grouping up mages is that they don't *add* any kind of synergy to the group (without the addition of an Atiesh of course). They don't have an aura, they don't have a debuff to help with other damage, other than WC or Imp Scorch which doesn't require them to be in a group with other mages. Those 2 debuffs are 'low mana' maintenance, so adding to their mana supply via a SPriest really doesn't help anyone but the mage.

So unless you're looking at an extreme burn situation, mages with a SPriest are usually just able to skip out on the mana pots. A better solution are elemental shaman, moonkin druid, and any warlock that uses Shadow Bolt as a staple and has Imp. SB. The shaman and moonkin can do excellent DPS provided they get some mana help, and they buff the rest of the people in their group. The warlocks get to sponge off of both VT -and- VE for mana efficiency, and it allows them to spam Shadowbolt instead of replenishing mana via Drain Life. The increased SB spammage = more Shadow Vulnerability uptime from Imp SB = 20% more damage for the SPriest = more mana for the party = more damage, etc. This is particularly true of deep Destruction warlocks who would exhibit close to 30% crit in that group makeup and decent gear, and with 1100ish +damage would be hitting for 2.4k every time and critting for an easy 5k every 7.5ish seconds.

Also, arcane mages using AB are pretty much wasting the 3% hit from the elemental shaman, as it's almost hard to not get 6% crit from good gear/enchants.

Yes · 04/22/07, 6:30 PM

Actually, without 2/5 tier 5, an AB spamming mage will do only 150~ more dps then a fire mage (1288 vs 1130~) given .4s latency (very reasonable). No resonable amount of mana regen methods can sustain the 12k mana per minute ab uses, anyway.

The reason why people do not put locks into spriest groups (generally) is that no matter what, tapping is an easy way to get mana (ie, tap during being thrown on gruul, tap during mag knockback, tap during hydross repositioning for absolutely NO dps loss)

dukes · 04/22/07, 6:40 PM

Originally Posted by Yes

The reason why people do not put locks into spriest groups (generally) is that no matter what, tapping is an easy way to get mana (ie, tap during being thrown on gruul, tap during mag knockback, tap during hydross repositioning for absolutely NO dps loss)

We just about always have warlocks in shadow priest groups (run with 2 spriest groups normally, both dps rather than healing although it depends on fight). The amount of healing the warlocks take is quite a strain on mana, but mostly on global cooldown and healer focus. We still prioritise mages into spriest groups though generally - all our mages are deep fire (45+) so they need the mana regen, especially on fights like Morogrim with all the AoE going down.

I also agree with the fact adding mages to a dps group doesn't really add anything. It's the same as rogues in melee groups - they benefit a lot from the buffs thrown out, but they don't really contribute anything directly.

doogless · 04/22/07, 7:59 PM

For warlocks, it depends on their spec. An affliction warlock is really very self-sufficient and doesn't really need a shadow priest, but a 0/21/40 destruction warlock really does need the mana and health stream from a shadow priest to reach their max level of effectiveness.

Yes · 04/22/07, 9:01 PM

Every one of our locks is affliction (Because it has simply proven to do more raid dps while still keeping bloodpact, sort of healing themselves with siphon/3piece shadowweave, and an occasional pet tap).

The point of these uber groups is to make the pure dps classes to do dps, you wouldn't want to have a warrior fdruid shaman marks / beastiality hunter (At least I think not!) group.

GokieKS · 04/22/07, 10:02 PM

Originally Posted by Yes

beastiality hunter

Come again? o.O

As a warlock, I recognize that because I'm more self-sufficient than just about every other class out there, and that because the alternative for warlocks (running OOM and having to Dark Pact/Life Tap/Drain Life) is still quite a lot better than the alternative for, say, mages (running OOM and having to wand), mages get a seemingly more obvious benefit from being in a Spriest group. Whether that actually leads to better raid DPS though, I'm not so sure - there's usually a lot of other factors at work that's makes it hard to compare. For example, if an elemental shaman is present (in which case you would want to put him/her in a Spriest group), the WoA totem's +hit is more useful for warlocks who don't get innate +hit on any Destruction spells (which form the largest single part of a warlock's DPS, even the heavy Affliction spec ones), while the +crit is more useful for mages.

Yes · 04/22/07, 10:09 PM

Oh, sorry, it's a running joke, I even mistyped that. Ha.

What I do personally is drop 3% hit so I am no longer at max hit. Hence I gain the full 6% benefit when an ele shaman is present.

tedv · 04/23/07, 11:22 AM

Originally Posted by heel

Arcane Blast costs about 2100 mana per 5 seconds (2500 with the bonus). Four Shadow priests should do the trick . . . assuming you know four Shadow priests who can sustain 2500 dps.

It's not quite that bad, but it's pretty close. To sustain a mage spamming arcane blast, even with evocation, mana gems, mana potions, and mage armor, they'll need an extra 1700 m/5 at a minimum:

Arcane Blast Cost: -2100 m/5
Blessing of Wisdom: 50 m/5
Spirit Regen Rate (not casting): 220 m/5
Mage Armor Regen: 30% * 220 m/5 = 66 m/5
Evocation: 220 m/5 * 1600% * 8/5 = 5632 mana every 8 minutes = 59 m/5 (more with a spirit staff)
Mana Gems + Potions: ~1000 (gem) + ~2400 (potion) mana each every 2 minutes = 142 m/5
Top end Mana: 10k mana to deplete in 10 minutes = 83 m/5 acceptable loss

This adds to a net loss of: -2100 + 50 + 66 + 59 + 142 + 83 = -1700 m/5.

So you need shadow priests to provide a total of 1700 m/5. That's 425 m/5 from each of 5 shadow priests, requiring 1700 DPS from each priest. With no consumables and around +1100 spell damage (and curse of shadows), a shadow priest will provide the group with around 270 m/5. Even with 61 points in shadow, a priest still needs 2400 +damage to output 425 m/5.

My prefered caster group is Shadow Priest, Elemental Shaman, Mage x3 for threat sensitive fights and Shadow Priest x2, Elemental Shaman, Mage x2 for threat insensitive fights. (When threat is an issue, it's better to spread out the priest to distribute the increased threat load across the entire raid, even if the raid regenerates less mana overall from that setup.)

Zong · 04/23/07, 11:36 AM

Mana Tide is amazing for shadow priests, coupled with wrath of air. Consider a resto shaman, maybe?

Vontre · 04/23/07, 11:49 AM

Spamming arcane blast is not reasonable. Any good arcane mage will be cycling his spells to match his mana regeneration. For an arcane mage, more mana = more dps, quite simply. Arcane Blast spam is just a fun theory that doesn't happen anywhere except trash mobs (or maybe the next Huhuran, should there be one).

Adding a shadow priest to my group increases blast cycle dps by almost 100 points.

tunah · 04/23/07, 11:56 AM

Originally Posted by Zong

Mana Tide is amazing for shadow priests, coupled with wrath of air. Consider a resto shaman, maybe?

This means you're putting mana tide in a shadowpriest group rather than a non-shadowpriest group, i.e. giving tide to people with VT regen rather than those without access to VT. The value of mana regen likely diminishes as you get more*, so mightn't it be better to swap the shadowpriest into the shaman's group for tide? Or dropping Tide in the healer group instead and innervating the shadowpriest.

* e.g. a mage can scale up their DPS by consuming more MPS: wand -> scorch -> fireball -> arcane blast. The DPS gain you get by adding another 100mp5 is going to be less the higher up the scale you go, in the extreme case you can't use the mana fast enough and the DPS gain is zero.

(Edit: tangent but because Vontre mentioned it - an arcane mage will scale with mp5 the best of any spec, since they have the best arcane blast to use. Their DPS gains will still diminish as mp5 is added but they could still be one of the better targets for MTT when they have a spriest already - where a fire mage might not and an affliction warlock certainly wouldn't)

Jenos · 04/23/07, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by Zong

Mana Tide is amazing for shadow priests, coupled with wrath of air. Consider a resto shaman, maybe?

I'd have to disagree about the usefulness of mana tide to a shadow priest-the biggest benefit a shaman brings to a shadow priest is wrath of air, which alone brings me 15Mp5 in addition to far more DPS. In addition, mana spring helps a lot, but I don't really NEED mana tide during fights, and I'm sure those people I'm grouped with also feel that effect. Ideally, I would assume a shaman being switched in and out of groups to make the most effect of mana tide, but that takes a lot of coordination that my raid leader simply hasn't gotted used too when dealing with shamans(Having 1 raiding shaman in the guild kinda sucks. =/).

Vontre · 04/23/07, 1:51 PM

Originally Posted by tunah

(Edit: tangent but because Vontre mentioned it - an arcane mage will scale with mp5 the best of any spec, since they have the best arcane blast to use. Their DPS gains will still diminish as mp5 is added but they could still be one of the better targets for MTT when they have a spriest already - where a fire mage might not and an affliction warlock certainly wouldn't)

This is true, because full-stack arcane blast is very mana inefficient. With a shadow priest in my group I could sustain cycles with 2-3 full-stack blasts, but that doesn't mean it is the best use for the mana. Mages, like any dps caster, have a certain threshold of optimal mana regen where stacking more will have less effect, or possibly none (diminishing returns). A single shadow priest usually fits this bill rather nicely.

The advantage of arcane is that the scaling up with mana is almost indefinite, the mana will never go to waste on an arcane mage even if it's better spent elsewhere. However, arcane also scales best the other way around, providing the best efficiency for mana-constrained situations.

Gumibear · 04/23/07, 7:59 PM

I get the most benefit from an Elemental Shaman in my group, with a Beast Mastery Hunter being a close second. The more DPS I do, the longer I can sustain myself, and Totem of Wrath from a Draenei Shaman will pretty much hit-cap me in my boss gear.