Celthis

I assume the 1.3 is from Mangle.

 

Malazaar

No, the 1.3 multiplier to the base damage also occurs if no mangle is active on the target. I originally assumed the base damage was just higher than the tooltip states.

Since this issue has been brought up, here is my originial data concerning rip:

While trying to come up with a formula for calculating rip damage i noticed that none of the typical sources had anything to work with (they all had formulas, however, they always predicted wrong rip ticks). So i started some testing on my own. My subjects were Warp Chasers (or at least some mobs of that species) in Terrokar, just outside Shattrath City. I made sure i didn't have the 5 % Damage increase buff you sometimes have in Terrokar and Auchinduon and i always built up combo points using rake (so i did't have a mangle debuff up).

I shifted several items of my gear to get different AP values and then proceeded to do a 5cp Rip on the aforementionend targets. I wrote down the corresponding AP values and Rip ticks (i always exclusively noted the first rip tick).

After collecting 14 Data Pairs (ranging from 491 to 2732 AP) i did a linear regression using the commonly known Gauss-Newton-algorithm (method of least squares). I came up with the following formula:

y = 0.264*x + 1709

Where y is the total Rip damage and x the attack power value. Note that while doing all the tests i had Naturalist 5/5. If you eliminate the Naturalist factor from the Formula you get:

y = 0.240*x + 1554

I think it's also worth mentioning that all data collected fits perfectly into the model (no value was more than 6 damage points - 1 per tick - from the expected value).

So while the assumed scaling factor (24% AP) is obviously correct, the base damage is way higher than the tooltip states.


I assume someone else has done similar tests and come up with the 1092 * 1.1 * 1.3 (= 1561.56) formula. This value is outside the expected error window (6 points damage), it's damn close. Until the person that came up with this formula can say that the hell the 1.3 and 1.1 multipliers are i can't really tell which one is right.

 

Boevis

Quick, someone ask a moonkin without Naturalist to go rip something!

Last rumor I heard was that the 1.3 was from you having the mangle ability (not on the target, just in your spellbook) and the 1.1 was a double application of Naturalist, much like Ignite vs Fire Vulnerable mobs (+10% when ability is cast, +10% on the tic because it checks your +damage% modifiers)

Honestly, I'd rather not complain about it, since Rip's current behavior is the one of only things that keeps Feral as viable DPS.

Wiedekuh, with 40% crit surely you're already running into your own Rips as is. What are you going to do with your extra CPs, FB? ;p Honestly, I'd love to see a 4th finisher (rogues have 6?) or at least a removal of the energy destruction on FB so we could start doing 4r/1(2)fb cycles like sword/mutilate/hemo rogues.

 

Weidekuh

yeah well you're right. it happens quite often, that i have to wait for the old rip to finish and 'wasting' energy. i thought about to FB, powershift and go for rip again. the biggest problem is, that FB consumes all it's energy. it sucks big time, because you have to FB at around 35 energy. if i hesitate and my energy ticked again it's too late :/

well anyway. a new finisher would be really nice. something like expose armor or a group buff.

You are the leader of the pack! You drive everyone in your group into a frenzy state increasing damage done by 1% per CP

or smth like that ^^

 

Immortal

Well, there is nothing bad in having 5 CP and your own rip ticking on mob, until you have 81+ energy at the same time. But even with 2/5 t4 bonus and more than 40% crit i've never been in such situation.

 

Malazaar

Back to the Bite/Shred Issue - i took some time and plottet the energy equivalent points for bite and shred with different factors (bite skilled/not skilled, 4pc T6 - shred w/ or w/o mangle).

It's quite simple - if you are above the equivalent point, shred is more energy efficient, if you are below, bite ist better.

I used the following formula for the plot:

E = ( 0.15 * A * F + 802 * F ) / ( 0.1607 * A + 528.75 - 4.1 * F )

With E being the Energy Equivalent Point, A being the Attackpower and F = Fb / Fs * 42, with Fb being the Bite-Factor and Fs being the Shred-Factor.



On bleed immune mobs, i mangle, shred until 5cp, continue shredding until i have between 35 and 44 energy or until mangle runs out - at which point i use bite (i don't have bite specced).

 

angral

WTB finishing move that applies a self buff!!

I'm fed up with every Tom, Dick and Harry in my party and raid piggy backing off all my hard work! Honestly, how can I be expected to beat rogues at dps if every time I boost my own effectiveness with a buff they get the same increase?

Sarcasm aside: One pve use for Maim discovered so far. 100 energy, 5 point FB crits on clothies sitting down makes my month for pvpin'! Removing the ability to release giant damage numbers would destroy my joy in the pvp game. I love seeing big numbers pop up above peoples' heads, even if I die shortly afterwards, taking one of the hated foe with me makes it all worth while.

More finishers would be kinda cool, but would we ever use them?
As a rogue I only use SnD, Evis, KS and Rupture with any regularity.
Expose Armour is only used in pvp to stop enemy rogues from vanishing, or perhaps on a warrior flag runner.
Deadly Throw is another pvp only ability, and given how Druids to date have 0 speed debuffs we can drop on others, I very much doubt we'll get one.
Envenom is a cool way of being a finishing finisher on long fights, but again, druids do not use poisons, we have one stackable debuff in lacerate... It seems a bit of a stretch that we'll get a finisher that removes mangle, rake or fff for damage.

We have a rough equivelent of KS, Evis, Rupture and Expose Armour in Maim, FB, Rip and FFF. As i said above I doubt we'll get something similar to Deadly Throw or Envenom, and heaven forbid druids are given a self buff (OOC being the exception that proves the rule I guess).

Right now, the one thing I want to see more than any other is for our form weapons to be upgraded to lvl 70. instead of sitting exactly as they were at lvl 60.

**Malk, I cannot see your picture :[ **

 

Meddler

Thanks for the plot Malazaar, something I've been wondering about for a while - quick question though, and apologies if I've missed it somewhere in your formula, is there any inclusion of the larger loss of energy on a FB than a shred when the attack fails to hit for whatever reason?

If not I believe this would lower the amount of energy as an equivalence point per line, how much depending on what assumptions you're making about miss/dodge rates (hit capped's not an unreasonable assumption, there's not enough +feral skill around to eliminate dodge that I'm aware of though). Might be an unnecessary level of detail, thought I'd throw the thought out though.

 

Boevis

Interesting. I haven't even looked at FB in a long time, I had no idea it was actually worth shredding over FB if I'm sitting at 5 cps with 45+ energy ...

I will admit, I have no clue where your formula came from though, where did the .1607 * AP + 528.75 come from?

Also, you should probably take into account that at 77+ energy, you can Shred and then FB, 4.1 * 42 energy = 172.2 damage is never going to be better than spending the 42 energy on a Shred, so you can really just put a hard cap on FB's effectiveness at 57 (waiting 2 seconds will be better than wasting that 22 energy, I think anyway)

 

Malazaar

The plot doesn't consider if it actually makes sense to use bite, it simply states that bite is more energy efficient at some points. Who would run in 77 energy with 5cp on the target when he intents to bite, anyway ?

The formula is just Shred damage per Energy = Bite damage per Energy, solved for Energy (0.1607 is 1/14 * 2.25 - the AP scaling factor for shred). The point about the missed finisher is valid though - i will try to include that.

How much Dodge/Parry does a Raidboss have (ignoring FWS) ?

As far as i know, you lose all your energy on a bite miss (including excess energy - more than 35 ?) and retain approximately 82 % on the energy on a shred miss - i this correct ?

 

dukes

I'm not entirely sure I see the point in this as you'll never (normally) use bite over rip, regardless of how many combo points you have. It's just not possible to generate the amount of combo points needed to be able to use bite efficiently in between rip cycles.

As a PvP finisher, it's a pretty obvious thing, but shred will more than likely be more effective in that position (unless mangle runs out, obviously) due to there being a higher miss chance on PvP targets because of some talents, which means more energy loss from finishing moves missing.

With rip cycles being based around a 12 second point, there's no need for more finishing moves imo. The only point at which I get frustrated is when there's bleed immune mobs, in which case your graph actually helps. However, it's very very rare to be in a situation where you're dpsing elementals/undeads (the most often found bleed-immune things). It also shows that, in a raid situation where you have mangle and don't have the 15% damage for fero bite talent, that shred is almost always better.

If I get another 3 pieces of tier 6 I would be tempted to try out the fero bite finishing move and see just how ridiculously high it can crit in PvP though

 

Malazaar

We were talking about bleed immune mobs (such as Hydross for example) where using rip is obviously no option. It's also (slightly) interesting with trash mobs where you often have the situation that the mob is going to die in less than 12 seconds.

 

Boevis

Not that I think anyone from blizzard might read this, but I think a decent finisher would be something along the lines of "reduces targets chance to dodge by 1% for 6/12/18/24/30 seconds'

 

Schlurcher

Hello,
I wondered if anyone could tell me a naked, untalented, level 70 druids base HP, for both Night Elfs and Tauren. Im currently working on a spreadsheet and couldn't find any useful information, regarding this topic. I came with something like 3584 HP for Night Elfs, but unfortunatly I couldn't spare enough room to completely unstrip my character and verify this number.

P.S.: Sorry for hijacking your thread.

 

• nachrichter

I came up with 4498hp naked as a Tauren druid with 85sta.

4498 / 1.05 - 850 = 3434 base hp

On the Rip damage formula question, we semi-hijacked a rogue rupture thread ([Rogue]: Rupture Formula) a little while ago talking about it. I ripped some ogres above Shatt while balance/resto specced (with Naturalist, of course) and found (1092*1.3*1.1 + .24*ap) * 1.1 to be accurate while not specced for Mangle. Every respec I've done since then has been a "port to moonglade, respec, get summoned to instance x" deal, so I don't have any data without talent points.

 

Liar

That is what FAP weapons are for really. They may or may not be underpowered compared to normal weapons but the fact that our paw damage stagnates at 60+ enabled Blizzard to drop +FAP weapons as early as level 60 as opposed to level 70. Think about it, if weapon damage scaled until level 70, the best DPS weapon in early end game would have been the +FAP weapon from AQ/Naxx and that is a level 60 item. That would have been kinda retarded, no?

 

• sadris

On a related note:
http://elitistjerks.com/showthread.php?p=361349

 

Meddler

Getting back to an earlier topic thanks to all those that recommended debuff tracking mods r.e. mangle status. Tried a few and found Debuff Filter suits me perfectly in terms of ease of display/customisation which was great to find.

Follow up (and probably simpler question) along with that then - I've currently got debuff filter showing mangle and rip just below my character model (lower central screen if that makes sense) which makes it nice and easy to tell at a glance what I need up or should be waiting on. To accompany this though I'd like to add another energy bar (with energy numbers as well as a visual indicator) just below these debuffs to avoid having to look back and forth between energy and debuffs when trying to figure out when to hoard energy vrs when to spend based off curation rip/mangle durations.

Sounds like a really simple concept but haven't had much luck tracking something that did just this down, most of what I've found trawling Curse/ACE seems to be either positional tick bars or large packages with a lot of other functionality I'd prefer to avoid (big fan of minimal addons where possible performance/update hassle/clash wise). Anyone able to recommend something that fits the bill?

 

Boevis

I use Gonffbar (wowace) simply because I like the menu setup of most ace2 stuff. kEnergy (also on wowace) is a toned down version of gonff (fewer options, doesn't track cps)

 

dukes

You could use a HUD (Icehud or Archud come to mind) and then strip off everything but the energy bar/combo points, however you said you didn't like mods with too much extra to strip down. Either that or the energy bars Boevis recommended.

I'd also suggest Quartz for debuff timers - it has proper bars instead of just an icon for when they're up/not up (although again, you'd have to strip off some of the extra stuff).

 

Weidekuh

I think FB is even worse than listet in your graph. Thanks to another EJ-forum thread we all (should) know that agi/str blows +Hit out of the water in pure DPS/itempoint. So now i've got a very low +hitrating, around 2-3% +hit.
Missing a shred costs me 7.56 energy (18% from 42). Missing a FB costs 35 energy.

 

Carlos

Hi, I am reading this board for like 3 weeks. I must say that this is the best board I have ever seen regarding theoycrafting and game mechanics.

I have one question regarding the sometimes referenced Powershifting. I have not found a complete discription of it. I am currently using the normal Rip,Mangle,Shred... Rotation, but I would like to give powershifting a try is there a good explanation somewhere.

 

dukes

I believe if you read the first couple of pages of this thread you can get a good understanding of the complete mechanics behind it, but the general principle is:

Furor returns 40 energy. If you shift out of form and back again, you get a net gain of 40 energy as a result. You lose in total ~1 white attack, but sometimes you gain a default swing with your normal weapon. As long as you time it right, you shouldn't lose more than 5 energy and you definitely shouldn't lose any energy ticks.

This results in the equivalent of gaining one shred or mangle, which is a massive boost in DPS. If you can powershift well, you should be using mana pots aswell to boost the amount of shifts you can do.

Due to the volatile nature of druid cycles, it will take a lot of practice to get this right and not screw it up and lose energy/attacks because of it, so you might actually see a decrease in DPS to start with before you get used to it.

I still haven't really played around with powershifting due to focusing on too many things already (always checking raid status, making sure mana levels are acceptable for innervates, making sure that people are doing their job properly/etc) but the theory behind it is robust.

As an aside: Read the stickies in the main forum, and don't sign your posts.

 

Zeln

Entire thread on powershifting: Druid cat dps- Powershifting

 

Malazaar

As requested several times i included miss in my graph, which even further decreases bite's effectiveness. I only displayed an unskilled bite with a mangled shred (which is the most common situation i assume).

As can be seen, with low hit and high ap, you are getting close to the point where shred is even better than bite at 35 energy, at which point you can basically remove bite from your action bar (in pve).