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Old 06/13/07, 1:50 PM   #151
Feorthas
King Hippo
 
Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Blackrock
Originally Posted by Marwel View Post
Been evaluating my catform gear and going from strength heavy to more on the agility side but keeping my 8.6% hit

Now I ran across a disturbing two words I cannot get out of my head "crit cap", is there such a thing, and if so how does it work ?
Being "Hit Capped" means that you no longer receive any benefit from getting more +Hit; you have already pushed all of the "Miss" off of your table when rolling your attack and additional hit will not help you.

Being "Crit Capped" is just the same, except for crits (duh); +Hit pushes "Miss" off of your attack table and +Crit pushes off "Hit", meaning that you'll eventually get to a point where you can Crit, Glance, or be Dodged(/Parried/Blocked). Note that nothing pushes glances off the Attack table and +Skill pushes Dodge/Parry/Block off.

WoWWiki Link: Attack Table

The above link is a bit out of date, numerically, but the mechanics are still identical.

---

Yes, I'm bored at work today ^^;;

I am not your personal Frost Deathknight knowledge base. If you have a simple question, ask in the simple questions thread; if you have a more esoteric, specific, or complicated question, ask in the spec-appropriate thread.

My PM, WoWmail, and, especially, chat boxes are NOT the appropriate places for these questions.

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Old 06/13/07, 2:37 PM   #152
Celthis
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Blackhand
The crit cap is really never relevant for feral druids; it's only a concern for dual-wielders, and even then, only for those without solid +hit.

A feral attack table (attacking from the front, no +hit gear) might look something like this:

5% miss
5% dodge
5% parry
5% block

15% glance
35% hit
30% crit

With this table, you'd have to have a 65% crit rate before you hit the crit cap.

If we assume a dual-wielder (again, attacking from the front, no +hit gear) we might see a table like the following:

24% miss
5% dodge
5% parry
5% block

15% glance
16% hit
30% crit

This character would be at the crit cap only if they have a 46% crit rate and are attacking from the front. When you attack from behind, you turn 10% (5% block / 5% parry) of avoided attacks into hits. These hits are then eligible to crit, raising the crit cap to 56%. Additionally, every piece of +hit gear (until you hit the hit cap) also raises the crit cap by the same amount.

Last edited by Celthis : 06/14/07 at 12:01 PM. Reason: Hurr mobs can dodge from behind

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Old 06/14/07, 11:56 AM   #153
Feorthas
King Hippo
 
Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Blackrock
Originally Posted by Liar View Post
Would be great
Doh--completely forgot to put my spreadsheet up last night; ended up running Gruul's + Mag + Nightbane as part of a guild-app process and it completely slipped my mind. I'll make sure to get it online tonight.

Edit: Where would one host a spreadsheet on the interwebs these days? ^^;;

Last edited by Feorthas : 06/14/07 at 11:05 PM.

I am not your personal Frost Deathknight knowledge base. If you have a simple question, ask in the simple questions thread; if you have a more esoteric, specific, or complicated question, ask in the spec-appropriate thread.

My PM, WoWmail, and, especially, chat boxes are NOT the appropriate places for these questions.

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Old 06/14/07, 10:20 PM   #154
sasugaa
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Druid
 
Blackwing Lair
post deleted, found the answer.

Last edited by sasugaa : 06/14/07 at 10:49 PM.

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Old 06/15/07, 6:24 AM   #155
Tyvi
Never, Mags. Never!
 
Tyvi's Avatar
 
Human Death Knight
 
Turalyon (EU)
Originally Posted by Feorthas View Post
Edit: Where would one host a spreadsheet on the interwebs these days? ^^;;
The only thing that comes into my mind is RapidShare. I'm sure there are better options (heard about google spreadsheets) but this gets the job done just fine.

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Old 06/15/07, 10:01 AM   #156
Feorthas
King Hippo
 
Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Blackrock
Originally Posted by Liar View Post
The only thing that comes into my mind is RapidShare. I'm sure there are better options (heard about google spreadsheets) but this gets the job done just fine.
I'll play with google spreadsheets as that's probably accessible from work whereas rapidshare may be hit or miss. When it gets online I'll edit this post to indicate that it is up and running.

Edit: Ok, it's online and seems to be functional as a google spreadsheet here. You'll need the following to use it (Apologies for the sheer messiness of the sheet, but I never really thought it would go into public consumption :P.):
  • Your Feral (CAT) AP
  • Your Feral Crit%, not rating (enter as a whole #; it'll get converted to a % later)
  • Your Hit%, not rating (enter as a whole #)
  • Your Feral Weapon Skill Rating (yeah, I'm consistent, aren't I? :P)

You'll want to enter the above in the BASE column starting at Cell B8.

Once these are entered, it'll do the standard 'what if we had 1 more of Y' to your stats (I never made hit work because it would require some extra formula changes and I'm lazy; just enter +1 hit rating into a custom gear set if you want to see how valuable the sheet thinks it is) as well as provide two areas to plug in custom additions/subtractions.

Here are the assumptions the sheet is making:
  • You have my talent build; the AP and Damage multipliers are hard-coded in.
  • The attack cycle you are using is 88 seconds long, starting with 0 energy and a mangle debuff that has JUST been applied (t=0) to the completion of that cycle (t=88) with a new mangle being applied and 0 energy being available.
  • Cat Form's MH Weapon is a 55dps 1.00 speed 1H weapon with 8.64% Miss Chance on both Yellow and White attacks.
  • Glancing blows occur 25% of the time and reduce damage by 25%
  • You are attacking from behind and thus not subject to Block & Parry (only 5.6% Dodge / 8.6% Miss)
  • You never use Ferocious Bite or a 4 CP Rip
  • You receive 0% damage reduction from armor (so, best case scenario). I didn't put in DR because this was simply made to show relative effectiveness and not tell you your theoretical damage output ^^;;

Caveats:
  • Some of the formulas may be slightly off; I corrected them and updated some things last night but there is plenty of room for error remaining.
  • The 'attack cycle' I generated fudges numbers slightly for critrates different than 25%; the base 88 second cycle worked FLAWLESSLY for a 25% critrate but a higher/lower rate will yield additional/fewer CP (and thus more/less rips). I just decided to scale combo point generation upwards by a fixed ratio of (YourCritrate - 25%) / 25% rather than do more exact calculations.
  • Omen of Clarity is not taken into account. I decided not to model it because I'd have to resort to a fixed decrease in cost of all skills over the 88 second cycle timeframe and I'm not sure what kind of PPM I'd want to target.
  • The 'AP' value of each stat is relative and compared to the raw stats that you provided. I generated a number to normalize by in order to get +1 AP to be worth 1 AP and +1 Str to be worth 2.4 AP but even that only holds true in the general case (it's close, but not quite perfect).
  • Agi appears to be oddly overvalued. Considering that it contributes to not only AP but to crit as well as combo point generation may explain this though.
  • The AP Contribution to Rip is based on my own testing; 0.24*AP was way WAY too low whereas 0.4*AP is about right.
  • +Skill adds 0.1% Hit and 0.2% Crit; I know the hit is most likely correct but I'm unsure about the +Crit value.
  • I made this a while ago so some decisions & values don't make 100% sense to ME anymore, such as why I decided that Rip DPS should be calculated over 13.5 seconds rather than 12. There WAS a good reason though... I think ^^;;.
  • The "Additional Stats" table uses ratings and not % for Hit/Crit/etc.
  • The "Paired" DPS entry is somewhat broken at the moment; it was going to indicate your damage output with someone else putting mangle up, saving you the energy cost and allowing you to shred instead. Unfortunately, I never really followed through with that and it's safe to ignore.
  • No outside buffs can be applied. If you want to modify your AP/stats to simulate a buff, you have to do so manually ><.
  • I'm sure there are more ><

Last edited by Feorthas : 06/15/07 at 4:42 PM. Reason: uploaded sheet.

I am not your personal Frost Deathknight knowledge base. If you have a simple question, ask in the simple questions thread; if you have a more esoteric, specific, or complicated question, ask in the spec-appropriate thread.

My PM, WoWmail, and, especially, chat boxes are NOT the appropriate places for these questions.

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Old 06/15/07, 3:35 PM   #157
Brissa
Not enough rage
 
Brissa's Avatar
 
Gnome Warrior
 
Argent Dawn (EU)
Ive just brought my feral druid into karazhan and i realised I have no idea whats good and what isnt for ferals.

Is there any form of feral dps spreadsheet avaliable where its possible to get PAWN values?

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Old 06/15/07, 3:41 PM   #158
Celthis
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Blackhand
Originally Posted by Brissa View Post
Ive just brought my feral druid into karazhan and i realised I have no idea whats good and what isnt for ferals.

Is there any form of feral dps spreadsheet avaliable where its possible to get PAWN values?
I haven't heard of one, but I would look into Emmerald's work with the DPS lists, if you haven't already. PAWN values specify the relative worth of stats, right? Emmerald's lists assume something like { str=2.4, agi=2.39, ap=1, hit=1.7, crit=1.3 }. The numbers may be slightly off, but it's something along those lines.

Of course, if you're looking for values tailored to your current stats, I'm not sure what to tell you.

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Old 06/15/07, 3:57 PM   #159
Brissa
Not enough rage
 
Brissa's Avatar
 
Gnome Warrior
 
Argent Dawn (EU)
Originally Posted by Celthis View Post
I haven't heard of one, but I would look into Emmerald's work with the DPS lists, if you haven't already. PAWN values specify the relative worth of stats, right? Emmerald's lists assume something like { str=2.4, agi=2.39, ap=1, hit=1.7, crit=1.3 }. The numbers may be slightly off, but it's something along those lines.

Of course, if you're looking for values tailored to your current stats, I'm not sure what to tell you.
Yea I was looking for something that is relevant to your own stats. Just pulling numbers out of your arse (which is what your doing if you put in numbers without keeping it in relation to your current stats) isnt something that suits me very well.
Thanks for the info though.

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Old 06/15/07, 4:22 PM   #160
Feorthas
King Hippo
 
Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Blackrock
Originally Posted by Brissa View Post
Yea I was looking for something that is relevant to your own stats. Just pulling numbers out of your arse (which is what your doing if you put in numbers without keeping it in relation to your current stats) isnt something that suits me very well.
Thanks for the info though.
*cough*I just posted a spreadsheet that should do that*/cough*

*innocent whistle*

I am not your personal Frost Deathknight knowledge base. If you have a simple question, ask in the simple questions thread; if you have a more esoteric, specific, or complicated question, ask in the spec-appropriate thread.

My PM, WoWmail, and, especially, chat boxes are NOT the appropriate places for these questions.

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Old 06/15/07, 4:46 PM   #161
Grizlock
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Warrior
 
Destromath
Originally Posted by Celthis View Post
I haven't heard of one, but I would look into Emmerald's work with the DPS lists, if you haven't already. PAWN values specify the relative worth of stats, right? Emmerald's lists assume something like { str=2.4, agi=2.39, ap=1, hit=1.7, crit=1.3 }. The numbers may be slightly off, but it's something along those lines.

Of course, if you're looking for values tailored to your current stats, I'm not sure what to tell you.
I've started working on web page that will rank upgrades.

I want to be able to:
* Import Armory Profiles to get current gear and stats
* Load Optimal Gems
* Give a % upgrade value based on current items

Unfortunately I'm still working on the grid control so it is at least a few weeks off.

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Old 06/15/07, 5:24 PM   #162
Brissa
Not enough rage
 
Brissa's Avatar
 
Gnome Warrior
 
Argent Dawn (EU)
Originally Posted by Feorthas View Post
*cough*I just posted a spreadsheet that should do that*/cough*

*innocent whistle*
Talk about being blind -.-

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Old 06/15/07, 9:34 PM   #163
Feorthas
King Hippo
 
Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Blackrock
Updated spreadsheet:
  • Fixed an issue where the +1 Skill table was giving too much value to the additional point
  • Tweaked the AP normalization value--it's now more accurate

I am not your personal Frost Deathknight knowledge base. If you have a simple question, ask in the simple questions thread; if you have a more esoteric, specific, or complicated question, ask in the spec-appropriate thread.

My PM, WoWmail, and, especially, chat boxes are NOT the appropriate places for these questions.

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Old 06/15/07, 9:47 PM   #164
nachrichter
wordington bear
 
nachrichter's Avatar
 
Syragosa/Wordington
Orc Death Knight
 
No WoW Account
The Rip formula seems to be (1092 x 1.3 x 1.1 + .24 x AP) x 1.3 x 1.1. The 1.3 and 1.1 outside the parentheses are from the Mangle debuff and Naturalist, while the 1.3 and 1.1 inside the parentheses appear to apply regardless of spec.

[Rogue]: Rupture Formula

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Old 06/16/07, 3:11 AM   #165
Feorthas
King Hippo
 
Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Blackrock
Originally Posted by nachrichter View Post
The Rip formula seems to be (1092 x 1.3 x 1.1 + .24 x AP) x 1.3 x 1.1. The 1.3 and 1.1 outside the parentheses are from the Mangle debuff and Naturalist, while the 1.3 and 1.1 inside the parentheses appear to apply regardless of spec.

[Rogue]: Rupture Formula
Aha, now that would explain the slight discrepancies I've been noticing. Thanks for the correction! Modeled Rip values are now within 2 damage of the actual values (rounding error on 24% value for the AP scaler, most likely).

Updates:
  • Added Independent +1 AP table to supply a correct normalization value
  • Corrected Rip Damage
  • +1 Agi is still reporting an overly high value. Workaround: the two custom stat builds appear to be reporting more accurate values, especially on large ranges from my AP/Crit (~2400 / ~34.8).
  • Need to modify the sheet so that vastly different AP/Crit values in the raw data correctly modify the attack cycle (currently, the 'actual' cycle is static, resulting in errors when the cycle should be modified)

Edit: Corrected Str reporting issue -- multiplier was @ 2.2 vs 2.4 on all calculations. For those who are wondering, Agi reports at 2.57 at 2392 AP / 34.79% Crit when using a custom setup with only one point of Agi added; one break even point, in the current model, for Value Agi = Value Str is at 1943 AP / 34.79% Crit. If someone wants to play around with some more numbers, we can probably get a formula going for the curve that specifies where Agi = Str.

Last edited by Feorthas : 06/16/07 at 3:27 AM.

I am not your personal Frost Deathknight knowledge base. If you have a simple question, ask in the simple questions thread; if you have a more esoteric, specific, or complicated question, ask in the spec-appropriate thread.

My PM, WoWmail, and, especially, chat boxes are NOT the appropriate places for these questions.

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