Of course the AP equivalency figure for Bloodlust is not quite right because of the Rips issue. With the Brooch you can get a "tailing" Rip which will still receive the Bloodlust bonus even after your Bloodlust buff has faded, giving you 2 Bloodlust-powered Rips over a time period exceeding the duration of the trinket and thus giving you a "shadow" AP bonus past the 20 second period. Consequently, the Bloodlust is a little better than it seems and not strictly inferior to the Crystalforged as the 'pure numbers' would indicate.
Of course the AP equivalency figure for Bloodlust is not quite right because of the Rips issue. With the Brooch you can get a "tailing" Rip which will still receive the Bloodlust bonus even after your Bloodlust buff has faded, giving you 2 Bloodlust-powered Rips over a time period exceeding the duration of the trinket and thus giving you a "shadow" AP bonus past the 20 second period. Consequently, the Bloodlust is a little better than it seems and not strictly inferior to the Crystalforged as the 'pure numbers' would indicate.
True its value will be somewhat over 118 AP due to timing issues since you can only get one rip out of the Crystalforged.
I have been using Crystalforged and Bloodlust recently since I had found that the Hourglass is worse, but upon getting new gear it seems that the hourglass has spiked back up in value again to be higher than both Crystalforged and Bloodlust in my case. Im unsure which of the two, Crystalforged or Bloodlust, I should replace with the hourglass, but I am leaning towards keeping the Crystalforged due to the slightly stronger passive bonus (since every now and then the trinket gets used and immediately Im needed to shift to heal/res/innervate etc)
You just proved that Str scales with Crit, not that it scales with AP.
Sorry, that was just a brainfart of mine.
I wanted to prove that STR does scale (in regard to the "opposite" stat: that would be AGI=Crit here), though in a limited fashion.
Obviously STR and AP are in a constant relationship ^^
Last edited by suicuique : 07/25/07 at 6:25 AM.
Reason: clarification
I think it requires testing. On the Rogue spreadsheet thread, parses allowed them to more or less conclude that weapon skill gave 0.1% to hit and that was all.
That said from the conclusions reached in that thread, it seems that there is either confusion in how hit actually works or that there are two different models for +hit for dual wielders and non-dual wielders:
Dual wield: 5% (base) + 19% (dual wield penalty) + (Mob Defense - Char Weapon skill)*0.1 = 25.5% miss chance vs a 73 mob. This is the agreed upon number for the dual wielding miss chance.
Non-dual wield: Here it gets a bit iffy. The number is almost universally agreed to be 8.6% but its unclear how that is reached. Some theories:
5% (base) + 0.2*(Mob Defense - Char Weapon Skill) = 8%. This is the theory using the wowwiki numbers, as quoted above. Now if the 0.2% per point when the Defense 10 or more above Weapon skill, is a penalty, the standard 0.04*(Mob Defense - Char Weapon Skill) gives the extra 0.6% needed to hit the 8.6% Standard.
These two theories, for 73 mobs result in the same thing and we can see they are analogous as well. There is the base miss chance, the 0.04*(Mob Defense - Char Weapon Skill) and a factor that takes the mobs Level into account (one case directly, the other indirectly through a penalty based on Weapon Skill).
To determine which would be correct, the solution, I believe, would be to test them on a level 72 Mob. Against a 72 Mob, the first theory gives:
5% (base) + 1%*2 +0.04*(10) = 7.4%
Whereas the second theory gives:
5% (base) + 0.1*(10) + 0.04*(10) = 6.4%
Technically a test with anywhere between 6.5% hit and 7.3% hit (and no weapon skill) against a 72 mob should allow verification of this theory. Any misses mean that the first theory is correct, whereas no misses at all mean that it would be the second. Granted it could also mean its another, third theory we dont know about, but it would at least let us determine which of these other two can be ignored.
I did this test. I unequipped my Clefthoof Hide Leggings, and was not using Earthwarden or the Shapeshifter's Signet, so I had +0 feral combat skill. Using +hit gems and some old Moonglade gear, I brought myself to exactly 103 hit rating. Then I went to Blade's Edge Plateau and cherry-picked the L72 Apexis Flayers, recording the combat log. I scored 402 consecutive hits with no misses.
If Theory 1 holds, my expected miss rate would be 7.4% excluding gear.
103 hit rating gives me +6.53%, so my expected miss rate should have been 0.87%.
Thus my expected hit rate should have been 100-0.87% = 99.13%.
The chances of scoring 402 consecutive hits with a 99.13% hit rate is .9913^402 = .0298. Rather unlikely.
Therefore the evidence points to Theory 2 as the correct one.
In slightly more direct terms, if you're using more than 6.5% hit against anything but raid bosses, you're using too much. I'm finally getting around to swapping the 12 stam on my Treads to 12 agility (hopefully someone who I know who can do it will be around tonight) to bring my hit lower (currently using the crafted LW boots from SSC plans).
Still wondering if there are any number gurus around to confirm the numbers I posted for feral DPS stats
str ~ 2.47 edit: had my number off
agi ~ 2.4
hit ~ 1.1
crit ~ 1.5
feral weapon skill = 0.85 assuming that website is somewhere close to correct
Someone posted earlier that Agi is actually better for DPS. I'd like an explanation why if that is the case.
\"Seriously just delete Druids, Shamans, and Paladins and make a new class called \"Support\". Give them Auras, Blessing, Innervate, MotW, Battle Rez, and a Restoration Tree.\"
Still wondering if there are any number gurus around to confirm the numbers I posted for feral DPS stats
str ~ 2.47 edit: had my number off
agi ~ 2.4
hit ~ 1.1
crit ~ 1.5
feral weapon skill = 0.85 assuming that website is somewhere close to correct
Someone posted earlier that Agi is actually better for DPS. I'd like an explanation why if that is the case.
Because agi gives you crit which generates CP growth faster. The higher your crit, the less chance a cycle will last longer then 12 seconds. More cycles = higher dps.
Originally Posted by missiletoad
I get enjoyment out of constructing buildings out of my fries and demolishing them with my chicken nugget army as I make monster noises. But you people. You people are FREAKS.
Haste = 1.41
STR = 2.60 (I'm using 5% 'half kings')
AGI = 2.83
AP = 1.00
Hit = 1.93 (obviously becomes worthless once you hit 8.6% +hit)
Crit = 1.81
Crit/Agi is more valuable than it may seem because of the multipliers (3% crit bonus metagem, Primal Instinct talent) and the effect on combo point generation, as Tytal said. Haste scales from anywhere between 1.3 AEP (not having OoC, not having 2t4, only 30% white damage which is very low) to around 1.7 AEP (both OoC and 2t4, something like 40% white damage).
Im unsure if the FCS is using the theory from wowwiki where the first 5 is more valuable than the rest or how in fact its modeled. Weapon skill always seems to be a sticking point in any theorycraft discussion due to no concrete knowledge on what it does exactly.
Read here a long time, first time posting. This site has fueled a lot of theorycrafting on my part ^^
Anyway, I was thinking this morning about how ridiculously useful Malorne 2 pc is, and how nice it would be to be able to use off set or 4-5 t6 pieces when we get there. After doing my own calculations on it, I see there's no reason I should ever get rid of Malorne (I'm planning on keeping hat/gloves right now) as long as 60% of my dps is yellow.
Maybe we should revisit that stat we forgot about, Haste Rating. With enough haste, relatively less of our dps will be yellow and we could use more high-stat pieces in good conscience. Has anyone considered this?
I did this test. I unequipped my Clefthoof Hide Leggings, and was not using Earthwarden or the Shapeshifter's Signet, so I had +0 feral combat skill. Using +hit gems and some old Moonglade gear, I brought myself to exactly 103 hit rating. Then I went to Blade's Edge Plateau and cherry-picked the L72 Apexis Flayers, recording the combat log. I scored 402 consecutive hits with no misses.
If Theory 1 holds, my expected miss rate would be 7.4% excluding gear.
103 hit rating gives me +6.53%, so my expected miss rate should have been 0.87%.
Thus my expected hit rate should have been 100-0.87% = 99.13%.
The chances of scoring 402 consecutive hits with a 99.13% hit rate is .9913^402 = .0298. Rather unlikely.
Therefore the evidence points to Theory 2 as the correct one.
This also lends credence to the theory on wowwiki that if the Defense is more than 10 greater than weapon skill, there is a larger penalty. If this wasnt the case a level 73 mob should only have a 7.1% miss chance (5 + 0.1*15 + 0.04*15) and it is generally agreed upon that they have an 8.6% miss chance.
4 piece t6 is affecting Rip/Fero Bite. My normal breakdown of skills on something like Teron is ~40% white, ~40% shred+mangle, ~20% rip. Haste rating only affects 40% of that DPS, and will cause 2t4 to be even better than with no haste.
I'm not sure if what you're saying is "4t6 is better because of stat upgrades as long as you stack haste" or "t6 in general is better if you stack haste, and the 4 piece is just a bonus". In either case, 2t4 wins out because haste will affect that bonus and will have absolutely no effect on 4t6. As far as I can see if the best combo is to get 3t6+2t4, although it is closely matched by 5t6.
As far as my own opinion/character stands - I will be using t6 for tanking and 2t4+random/t5 for DPS (although I may try 4t5 just because it means I don't have to pay so much attention to not wasting energy because of 2t4 procs when sitting at 70+ energy already and getting OoC procs, which does happen quite a lot). Tanking is a much bigger role as it stands for me, while DPSing is limited to a few select fights, so obviously I'd select gear in that way.
Read here a long time, first time posting. This site has fueled a lot of theorycrafting on my part ^^
Anyway, I was thinking this morning about how ridiculously useful Malorne 2 pc is, and how nice it would be to be able to use off set or 4-5 t6 pieces when we get there. After doing my own calculations on it, I see there's no reason I should ever get rid of Malorne (I'm planning on keeping hat/gloves right now) as long as 60% of my dps is yellow.
Maybe we should revisit that stat we forgot about, Haste Rating. With enough haste, relatively less of our dps will be yellow and we could use more high-stat pieces in good conscience. Has anyone considered this?
Thing is, haste gives us more malorne procs as well since there is no internal cooldown on the ability and it is not PPM based.
X% haste will give X% increase in normal attacks and thus X% increase in white damage. It will also give slighly less than X% increase in malorne procs (since some procs come from yellow attacks). However, more malorne procs allow a positive feedback effect to allow more special moves and thus more malorne procs. At a rough glance haste would appear to affect both sides of the "argument" pretty evenly so I dont suspect it will greatly affect the overall power of the 2 set Malorne bonus.
4 piece t6 is affecting Rip/Fero Bite. My normal breakdown of skills on something like Teron is ~40% white, ~40% shred+mangle, ~20% rip. Haste rating only affects 40% of that DPS, and will cause 2t4 to be even better than with no haste.
I'm not sure if what you're saying is "4t6 is better because of stat upgrades as long as you stack haste" or "t6 in general is better if you stack haste, and the 4 piece is just a bonus". In either case, 2t4 wins out because haste will affect that bonus and will have absolutely no effect on 4t6. As far as I can see if the best combo is to get 3t6+2t4, although it is closely matched by 5t6.
As far as my own opinion/character stands - I will be using t6 for tanking and 2t4+random/t5 for DPS (although I may try 4t5 just because it means I don't have to pay so much attention to not wasting energy because of 2t4 procs when sitting at 70+ energy already and getting OoC procs, which does happen quite a lot). Tanking is a much bigger role as it stands for me, while DPSing is limited to a few select fights, so obviously I'd select gear in that way.
Just wondering, what 2 pieces of T4 are you using? Im using the helm and shoulders at the moment Im not sure if they're optimal though (especially since I have the engineering goggles at my disposal for the helm). Shoulders seem like a good choice since the upgrades there are minor. I know for sure T4 legs are far inferior to T5 legs and the new Karazhan chest piece is quite a bit better than the T4 (and T5) chest for DPS. So Im left with either using Shoulders + Gloves or Helm. Gloves Im using Dexterous Manipulation which are quite good themselves as well.
I'm actually using helm, shoulders and chest right now - hoping to replace chest with Nether Shadow one at some point in the future but it's hardly a top priority. I'm certainly not going to bother with the kara crafted one (way too expensive for what it is). Windslayer wraps are better than any other gloves available apart from T6 (as long as you aren't hit capped and prefer to have hit than just raw stats because of cycle-timing). I'm planning on keeping shoulders+helm for the future - the other pieces to replace those slots just aren't appealing really (tier pieces obviously are good, but theres very few offset pieces for those slots which are actually good for druids).
In the majority of fights I would never use shadow prowler - lack of stamina and lack of armour means it's not worth it for offtanking in comparison to the other options. It's also not really suitable for a lot of fights where raid damage is going around and so stamina/intellect are not negligible stats (which also seem to be the ones I get to purely DPS on - Teron, Naj'entus and Illidari council to name a few).
OOC is a procs per minute type of buff. So haste is useless for it.
2pcT4 is a 4% proc off all hits, giving 20 energy
Living Root is a 3% proc off all hits, giving 64 strength for 15 seconds.
10.5 Haste Rating = 1% haste effect (lvl 70)
Items with haste rating:
Band of Devestation = 31
Grips of Damnation = 37
Shadow-walker's Cord = 37
Swiftstrike Bracers = 27
Swiftstrike Shoulders = 38
Crystalweave Cape = 26
Total haste rating = 196
Total haste effect = 19% (being generous)
From my Morogrim WWS stats a couple of weeks ago:
Melee 36%, 275 hits, 220 avg dmg.
Other hits (shred, mangle, ravage) 40%, 87 hits (avg mangle dmg was 714)
Total hits = 362, for 18 2pcT4 procs (5%, above average)
Assume the fight lasts for exactly the same duration and I have exactly the same ap, crit and hit values but with the extra 196 haste rating.
275 * 1.19 = 327 hasted white hits. Which would give me approximately 2 extra 2pcT4 procs over the course of the fight.
I would therefore had done an extra (327-275)x220 + 714 = 12514 damage!
That equates to an extra 25 dps.
Truthfully the bonus damage could have been slightly more than that once you account for possible extra Hourglass procs... I may be clutching at straws here.
Now let's assume that I had the Living Root equipped instead of my Hourglass. 362 hits at 3% would give 11 procs. With the haste bonus and being generous, let's say I get an extra 2 procs of the Living Root as well. Under ideal circumstances that would be an extra 30 seconds with an extra 64 strength, on a fight that lasted 8 minutes.
Suffice to say: haste rating is nigh on useless, and I need to stop innervating and ressing people during Morogrim.
**Added a capital letter so the punctuation ... am I even allowed to say nazi's on this forum? Probably best to go with: police do not get me another demerit.**
**Editted for silly maths mistake. (remember to add trailing zeros)**
The "standard" rotation is Mangle, shred to 5 cp, wait for 80+ energy, rip->mangle, shred to 5 cp, wait for 80+ energy, etc.
Rip gains the bonus if the mob has mangle when it ticks. If mangle runs out half way through the rip, you get 3 ticks of +30%, 3 ticks of default. As soon as the mob gains the mangle debuff again, you get the +30% back. There some strange stuff that can happen though, like seeing double benefit of mangle, no benefit even though mangle is on, and other weird things.
I do have a theory as to why we sometimes see double benefit on mangle, but I need to take some time to test it as it could be completely wrong.
Back to rotations...okay, I was paying more attention to my rotation last night in SSC when I got to DPS, and I don't see the benefit of waiting for 80 energy. I am basically keeping Mangle up all the time, and often I'm at 5cp well before Mangle is in danger of running out, so I hit Rip immediately and then refresh Mangle as needed. I just didn't see any benefit in waiting for energy when I was rarely in danger of Mangle not being up.
Am I missing something, or is the 80+ energy strat just a way to simplify something that in practice doesn't actually work the same as on paper?
Back to rotations...okay, I was paying more attention to my rotation last night in SSC when I got to DPS, and I don't see the benefit of waiting for 80 energy. I am basically keeping Mangle up all the time, and often I'm at 5cp well before Mangle is in danger of running out, so I hit Rip immediately and then refresh Mangle as needed. I just didn't see any benefit in waiting for energy when I was rarely in danger of Mangle not being up.
Am I missing something, or is the 80+ energy strat just a way to simplify something that in practice doesn't actually work the same as on paper?
The point of waiting for the 80 energy is to Rip > mangle immediately so you do not have to reapply it during the course of the Rip. The extra energy guarentees that you will have enough to shred 3 times during the course of the Mangle, which should net you at least 5cp. The point is to Mangle as few times during the course of the fight and hit as many shreds during mangles as possible.
I would therefore had done an extra (327-275)x220 + 714 = 1754 damage!
That looks a little wrong, might want to recount your math.
52*220 + 714 = 12154
Also assuming you had anything more than 2 energy when the fight ended, you would be able to use that energy on a shred, or an earlier rip cycle. So choosing a mangle for that 40 energy is less than ideal, as a shred will net you upwards of 2000 average.
In the majority of fights I would never use shadow prowler - lack of stamina and lack of armour means it's not worth it for offtanking in comparison to the other options. It's also not really suitable for a lot of fights where raid damage is going around and so stamina/intellect are not negligible stats (which also seem to be the ones I get to purely DPS on - Teron, Naj'entus and Illidari council to name a few).
While very slightly better than T5 in terms of DPS I agree I wouldnt use it over the Nordrassil Chest. However it is a significant DPS upgrade over Malorne and I would certainly use it over it in that case (and since Im currently using Primalstrike its definately worth the upgrade especially considering I dont foresee myself getting the T5 chest or better too soon).
Wrong, so far as I know. PPM procs work on your BASE speed to get a proc per swing %. More swings means more procs.
...
PPM stands for Procs Per Minute. Which means no matter what, you will get an average of X procs per minute, regardless of your usage of special moves/attack speed.
I wrote up a small 2-page spreadsheet to calculate the value of feral combat skill as Equivalent Attack Power.
The Excel spreadsheet is on rapidshare.com here and on google docs here.
On page 1, I compare the two theories of how 8.6% is the miss rate against L73 boss mobs. Based on my testing above, I am going with Theory 2. That says there is an additional .2% penalty to hit for each point of difference between the mob's defense and your weapon skill, if that difference exceeds 10. (The penalty is only .1% for a difference in the [1-10] range.)
That penalty is added to the .04% chance to miss for each point of difference between the mob's defense and your weapon skill, for all skill levels. Therefore each weapon skill vs. boss mobs is worth .24% to hit.
On page 2, I compare the value of +skill to +hit and +crit, using the standard Equivalent Attack Power. I'm using Tunah's posted values of:
Hit = 1.93
Crit = 1.81
The first table on page 2 shows the benefit of +1 skill vs mobs of levels 70-73. The grayed-out values are complete guesses, unfortunately -- if anyone has hard data I will be happy to update the spreadsheets. But using those values for now in the next table, I convert 1 skill rating into .2538 skill, and translate that into +hit and +crit, and lowered chances for the mob to dodge and parry.
The next table converts these values into +hit and +crit ratings, using the well-known conversion factors of 15.77 and 22.08 respectively. Now I can say that against a boss mob, +1 skill is equal to +.96 hit, +.40 hit (from lowered dodge), 1.12 crit, and 2.40 hit (from lowered parry).
We can convert these numbers to EAP as a function of mob level and whether you are attacking from the front. Assuming you are not hit capped, attacking a boss from the front (generally a bad idea) results in 1 skill rating = 9.29 EAP. This huge figure is largely a result of reducing the mob's chance to parry. If you attack the same mob from behind to eliminate parry, 1 skill rating = 4.66 EAP, still better than either agility or strength (at about 2.6-2.8 according to Tunah).
This only works for the first 5 skill, or 20 skill rating (roughly 1 piece of equipment). Beyond that, each +skill is worth only 2.48 EAP, meaning it is less valuable than agility or strength.
When fighting L72 trash mobs from the front, though, the reduction in parry makes the first 20 skill rating worth 5.57 EAP each, and the next 20 worth 4.02 EAP. At that point, your weapon skill is equal to the mob's defense, and further skill rating is worth only 1.33 each.
In summary, when fighting boss mobs, 1 piece of +skill equipment is very valuable, and the 2nd or 3rd piece is somewhat less so (slightly worse than agility or strength). When fighting trash mobs from the front, 1 piece for L71 and 2 pieces for L72 are worthwhile.
PPM stands for Procs Per Minute. Which means no matter what, you will get an average of X procs per minute, regardless of your usage of special moves/attack speed.
Doesn't PPM work off base speed, so any haste buff means you will proc more often? I'm sure this was the case in the past, but I've never played a class that cared much about PPM, so I don't really follow these things. Basically, I remember people saying that if something was a base 2 PPM with a 3.4 speed weapon, if you hasted it, you would get > 2 PPM since it would proc based on how often you swing a 3.4 speed in 1 minute.
The point of waiting for the 80 energy is to Rip > mangle immediately so you do not have to reapply it during the course of the Rip. The extra energy guarentees that you will have enough to shred 3 times during the course of the Mangle, which should net you at least 5cp. The point is to Mangle as few times during the course of the fight and hit as many shreds during mangles as possible.
But the thing is, using the wait for 80 energy method I would end up Mangling more often than necessary. In many cases, I would hit 5cp, still have Mangle on the mob and be ready to slap on a Rip. No sense waiting for a Mangle since I can just do one on my next tick, or after another Shred even.
PPM stands for Procs Per Minute. Which means no matter what, you will get an average of X procs per minute, regardless of your usage of special moves/attack speed.
A common misconception, but the Grog is correct. This is why warriors with 2H and sword rogues with slow mainhands have always had better uptime on proc based enchants than dagger rogues (the big one pre-BC being crusader, and currently mongoose).
A PPM enchant has a fixed percentage chance to proc based on the speed of the weapon in question *at rest*. Just as buffs that increase your attack speed do not lower your damage per hit (save Seal of the Crusader, but that's in the tooltip), they also do not lower your chance to proc a PPM based enchant.
Your specials use the same chance to proc that is assigned to your autoattack hits at "normal" speed. This is how it works with PPM based weapon enchants.
The exact mechanics of your OOC may be different. It says "melee attacks" which may not include specials.
07/24/07, 4:42 PM
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