Feral Druid DPS - Page 2

Lord BEEF · 04/10/07, 6:53 PM

I would think the hourglass would be ideal. Due to high crit and fast attack speed, druids crit a lot so the hourglass would be activated very frequently. The hidden cooldown of course comes into play but I think it'd be your best bet overall.

dukes · 04/10/07, 6:59 PM

Originally Posted by Boevis

Malorne 2/5 is a flat 4% chance on hit. http://www.thottbot.com/s37311

I am very confident that our base miss is no more than 5%
http://elitistjerks.com/showthread.p...616#post321616
And elsewhere on the page is some of my testing on druid Hit % and the effects of +skill. As always, I'm adding to it.

Only dealing with white damage, consider this:
3500 AP 35% Crit
NW/PI full feral this gives us ~335 damage on our attacks, critting for 737
Out of 1000 attacks (with base 5.6% dodge on the boss)
56 attacks miss
350 attacks crit (350 * 737 = 257,950)
594 attacks hit (594 * 335 = 198,990) = 456,940

25 more Agi gives you 25 AP and 1% crit 25 AP raises damage to 337/741
360 attacks crit (360 * 741 = 266,760)
584 attacks hit (584 * 337 = 196,808) = 463,568 a 1.45% increase

25 more Str gives you 60 AP raising damage to 340/748
350 attacks crit (350 * 748 = 261,800)
594 attacks hit (594 * 340 = 201,960) = 463,760 a 1.49% increase

Not much of a difference.

You seem to be forgetting that a crit also gives 2 combo points for specials, which I'm sure is quite a bit of DPS - assuming no t4 bonus, 20 energy/2 seconds = 120 energy in the time it takes for rip to run out, which means you can do 2 moves and a rip without the talent, without clearcasting. With clearcasting, the combo point talent, and the malorne bonus, you can pretty much keep a 5 point rip going 90% of the time, which is a lot of damage. I like stacking AP, but I'm inclined towards getting more crit atm as I'm sitting on ~2.7k ap unbuffed and 33% crit.

Liar-> I'd use the Hourglass. Internal cooldown is ~45-50 seconds, works out as something like 50ap constant as well as the crit bonus. I've been using the Bloodlust/Hourglass combo for a while and it's doing well for DPS. Activated trinkets are better for rogues though IMO, mainly due to being able to use them with cooldowns (adren rush + blade flurry + bloodlust brooch is some sick damage).

I think this thread basically belongs in the druid discussion thread btw (3 roles 5 stages etc).

Tyvi · 04/10/07, 7:15 PM

Thanks for the advise guys.

I am going to go with Bloodlust/Hourglass combo then unless someone has a convincing reason to not use the Hourglass.

Zadnak · 04/11/07, 1:00 AM

Originally Posted by Liar

Thanks for the advise guys.

I am going to go with Bloodlust/Hourglass combo then unless someone has a convincing reason to not use the Hourglass.

I use Bloodlust/Hourglass when I dps in heroics or on bosses. Its a good combination, but I don't have any numbers to back it up.

Boevis · 04/11/07, 5:03 AM

Originally Posted by dukes

You seem to be forgetting that a crit also gives 2 combo points for specials, which I'm sure is quite a bit of DPS - assuming no t4 bonus, 20 energy/2 seconds = 120 energy in the time it takes for rip to run out, which means you can do 2 moves and a rip without the talent, without clearcasting. With clearcasting, the combo point talent, and the malorne bonus, you can pretty much keep a 5 point rip going 90% of the time, which is a lot of damage. I like stacking AP, but I'm inclined towards getting more crit atm as I'm sitting on ~2.7k ap unbuffed and 33% crit.

No, I wasn't forgetting, it's just more math than I was willing to do at that point and time. Using the same numbers from earlier as well as my 20 second cycle from the powershifting thread. ( Druid cat dps- Powershifting ) And assuming you switch between all 3 idols...
3500 AP 35% Crit
Mangle - ((3500/14+54.6)*1.6+264+23)*1.1*1.2 = 1022
Shred - ((3500/14+54.6)*2.25+405+81)*1.1*1.3 = 1675
Rip - (3500*.24+1092+120)*1.1*1.3 = 2934
Auto = 335 from before

And now my brain starts to hurt because I forget how to do probability. Missed attacks extend the cycle giving more auto's and a missed Shred if no crits occur will cost you the benefit of the Mangle debuff for the final Shred. Each Crit shortens the cycle by 2 seconds, resulting in 2 fewer Auto and 1 fewer Shred. Ignoring misses, I think it's something like ...
(0C*(M+S*4+R+A*19))/20 + (1C*(M+S*3+R+A*17))/18 + (2C*(M+S*2+R+A*15))/16
But like I said, I suck at probability.

On the note of Trinkets, Hourglass is really good, and Abacus is terrible. And not that this is the main Druid thread, but I honestly feel that how Blizzard has always designed trinkets is proof that they simply don't consider Druids at all when designing gear except as an afterthough. 26 crit rating use: +200 AP, gee thanks Blizzard, now where's the 26 Agi, use: +100 Str trinkets? The best Feral gear in the game shouldn't make Rogues jealous.

Kink · 04/11/07, 6:05 AM

I am sure I missed a shred last night when I was at 7.2% to hit, on Nightbane. I will keep a specific eye out for it in the future. I recently got a new neck and lost some +hit and it brought me below the 8.8% to hit I had for ages (and never saw a miss with). Probably raiding tonight, though maybe as a tank, blech.

As far as DPS goes, last night I was fully potted and fighting for the top spot on the meters in nightbane. We had 3 other excellent DPSers so I was just happy to see everyone in the same place (a few thousand between us all) instead of being top and wondering why everyone else is slacking =)

Cat DPS is excellent. It seems to me that it is very very crit dependant. More so than just AP. With the 35% crit I had last night my damage would sometimes rocket, 2 CPs, the huge crit numbers, constant rip cycles really make your DPS quite insane. Anyways, Feral druids can definately keep up with rogues, hunters, mages and locks at the moment. It might be tougher for us, and you probably will not beat those crazy locks, but you still do very respectable DPS.

dukes · 04/11/07, 6:19 AM

All i meant from that comment about forgetting 2 combo points on a crit was that although there's practically no difference between agi and strength on base stats, once you factor in more combo points agi pulls away quite a bit from strength until you hit the glancing cap. I still prefer using things like Windslayer Wraps over Wastewalker with 2 agi gems though - AP is still pretty important for Rip DPS and provides a decent base damage boost.

Has anyone else noticed a lower crit rate on shred than they should have? I seem to never get more than about 26-27% crit with it, when my crit on char screen shows ~34% raid buffed. Last night on Mag over 2 fights - around 15 minutes of data, in tanking gear, 24% crit - I had 14% total crit with shred. Every Kazzak I've ever done I always check too, and it's NEVER equal or above what it should be. However, in PvP it seems to have a 50% crit rate.

Daboran · 04/11/07, 6:59 AM

Originally Posted by Kink

Cat DPS is excellent. It seems to me that it is very very crit dependant. More so than just AP. With the 35% crit I had last night my damage would sometimes rocket, 2 CPs, the huge crit numbers, constant rip cycles really make your DPS quite insane. Anyways, Feral druids can definately keep up with rogues, hunters, mages and locks at the moment. It might be tougher for us, and you probably will not beat those crazy locks, but you still do very respectable DPS.

Crits indeed do mean some pretty amazing damage streaks sometimes. On Nightbane last night I was about 60-80k off the top KTM threat after a landing transition where I needed to shift out and heal/rez/innervate. As soon as I got back to dps I went on a truly amazing crit streak and had to actually stop using specials for fear of pulling aggro off the MT.

Boevis · 04/11/07, 7:30 AM

Originally Posted by dukes

Has anyone else noticed a lower crit rate on shred than they should have? I seem to never get more than about 26-27% crit with it, when my crit on char screen shows ~34% raid buffed. Last night on Mag over 2 fights - around 15 minutes of data, in tanking gear, 24% crit - I had 14% total crit with shred. Every Kazzak I've ever done I always check too, and it's NEVER equal or above what it should be. However, in PvP it seems to have a 50% crit rate.

The Rogues on these forums have already proved that specials are on a 2 roll system, and assuming your tank gear has little or no +hit on it, that's a potential 14.2% avoidance by Mag, leaving you 85.8% hits that can crit. 24% * 85.8% = 20.59% Of course, there's a new theory that 1 skill or defense changes +hit by .1% not .04% as is generally believed, keeping the %dodge the same that would give the boss 15.1% avoidance. 24% * 84.9% = 20.37% effective crit with shred.

Solstice · 04/11/07, 7:45 AM

Hmm, so under a 2 roll system the first roll includes all avoidance while the 2nd roll is purely between hit and crit?

Boh559 · 04/11/07, 11:10 AM

so my guild did maulgar, gruul, mag last night. I decided that since i didnt need to tank i would play around with gear a bit. Now none of this is numbers based as i didnt have recap running or something similar (i was also playing natur enemy cast bar settings)

On gruul, i went in with 9% hit(over the 8.6 + cap people throw around). and noticed that on specials i didnt miss. Or if i did i didnt notice it.

when we went to mag i switched up some gear to get the malorne bonus/more ap but lowered my + hit at 7.31% and i will say that i noticed quite a few shred misses.

i'm beginning to lean towards the 8.6 number that is thrown around but i'm not much of a math guy so i could still be wrong.

Kazanir · 04/11/07, 1:53 PM

Running 90 hit rating (char sheet gives this as +5.71% hit) I just had a white attack miss against Reth'Hedron (level 73 world elite, not boss flagged.)

Kazanir · 04/11/07, 2:41 PM

Originally Posted by Kazanir

Running 90 hit rating (char sheet gives this as +5.71% hit) I just had a white attack miss against Reth'Hedron (level 73 world elite, not boss flagged.)

Not exactly a huge sample, but running the same hit rating I white hit Reth' 320 times and had 10 misses which is a 3.0959% miss rate.

Boevis · 04/12/07, 1:22 AM

Originally Posted by Kazanir

Not exactly a huge sample, but running the same hit rating I white hit Reth' 320 times and had 10 misses which is a 3.0959% miss rate.

Can you try it with the supposed 6.5% hit? I'm incapable of getting guildmates to help me with "pointless testing" Also, there's 73 none elites in Blades Edge if you want to try less difficult opponents.

Athinira · 04/12/07, 5:50 AM

Originally Posted by Boevis

Can you try it with the supposed 6.5% hit? I'm incapable of getting guildmates to help me with "pointless testing" Also, there's 73 none elites in Blades Edge if you want to try less difficult opponents.

No need, 8.6% apparently for any melee and ranged DPS that is not Dual Wielding:
http://elitistjerks.com/showthread.p...191#post324191

Anyways here is a good approach when gathering druid DPS gear (this is my opinion):
1) Rate crit higher than you would normally do
Crit on pure math is DPS, however crit for druids in practical is worth more and cheaper on item budget when boosting DPS.
- Primal Fury allows better DPS cycles, enabling you to spend less time reapplying Mangle for Shred and Rip damage boost. More crit = More primal fury.
- Primal fury allows you to pull off more finishing moves. Finishing moves are way more energy efficient than other moves.
- Predatory Instinct = 10% more bang for the buck
- Items like Hourglass of the Unraveller comes to mind.
- In addition to Hourglass of the Unraveller, it should be mentioned crit benefits more from AP procs or trinkets like Hourglass or Bladefist Breath etc. Giving Bladefist breath as example, 200 AP is 200 AP, but crit allows you to turn those 200 AP into more damage since it scales those 200 AP up, while strength/AP from other gear won't affect such AP procs or trinkets at all.

2) Get 7-8% +hit
Missed attacks cost energy, missed finishing moves cost ALOT of energy. Feral Combat skill is also an option

3) Avoid haste buffs from gear
Haste is generally designed around either casters, hunters or Dual Wielders. While druids DO benefit from it, chances are that there is other gear around that will grant you a larger DPS benefit. Leave the haste gear for fury warriors, rogues and hunters IMO.