so my guild did maulgar, gruul, mag last night. I decided that since i didnt need to tank i would play around with gear a bit. Now none of this is numbers based as i didnt have recap running or something similar (i was also playing natur enemy cast bar settings)
On gruul, i went in with 9% hit(over the 8.6 + cap people throw around). and noticed that on specials i didnt miss. Or if i did i didnt notice it.
when we went to mag i switched up some gear to get the malorne bonus/more ap but lowered my + hit at 7.31% and i will say that i noticed quite a few shred misses.
i'm beginning to lean towards the 8.6 number that is thrown around but i'm not much of a math guy so i could still be wrong.
Running 90 hit rating (char sheet gives this as +5.71% hit) I just had a white attack miss against Reth'Hedron (level 73 world elite, not boss flagged.)
'War' is too small a word for what I'm fighting. Like a candle in front of the whole burning Sun. Now, I am not going to die today. I have other projects, and other options.
Running 90 hit rating (char sheet gives this as +5.71% hit) I just had a white attack miss against Reth'Hedron (level 73 world elite, not boss flagged.)
Not exactly a huge sample, but running the same hit rating I white hit Reth' 320 times and had 10 misses which is a 3.0959% miss rate.
'War' is too small a word for what I'm fighting. Like a candle in front of the whole burning Sun. Now, I am not going to die today. I have other projects, and other options.
Not exactly a huge sample, but running the same hit rating I white hit Reth' 320 times and had 10 misses which is a 3.0959% miss rate.
Can you try it with the supposed 6.5% hit? I'm incapable of getting guildmates to help me with "pointless testing" Also, there's 73 none elites in Blades Edge if you want to try less difficult opponents.
Can you try it with the supposed 6.5% hit? I'm incapable of getting guildmates to help me with "pointless testing" Also, there's 73 none elites in Blades Edge if you want to try less difficult opponents.
Anyways here is a good approach when gathering druid DPS gear (this is my opinion):
1) Rate crit higher than you would normally do
Crit on pure math is DPS, however crit for druids in practical is worth more and cheaper on item budget when boosting DPS.
- Primal Fury allows better DPS cycles, enabling you to spend less time reapplying Mangle for Shred and Rip damage boost. More crit = More primal fury.
- Primal fury allows you to pull off more finishing moves. Finishing moves are way more energy efficient than other moves.
- Predatory Instinct = 10% more bang for the buck
- Items like Hourglass of the Unraveller comes to mind.
- In addition to Hourglass of the Unraveller, it should be mentioned crit benefits more from AP procs or trinkets like Hourglass or Bladefist Breath etc. Giving Bladefist breath as example, 200 AP is 200 AP, but crit allows you to turn those 200 AP into more damage since it scales those 200 AP up, while strength/AP from other gear won't affect such AP procs or trinkets at all.
2) Get 7-8% +hit
Missed attacks cost energy, missed finishing moves cost ALOT of energy. Feral Combat skill is also an option
3) Avoid haste buffs from gear
Haste is generally designed around either casters, hunters or Dual Wielders. While druids DO benefit from it, chances are that there is other gear around that will grant you a larger DPS benefit. Leave the haste gear for fury warriors, rogues and hunters IMO.
As you stated, that's old Data. We are collecting new Data, because lets be honest, Blizzard does change things from time to time. Last test was over 1000 attacks with 5.33% Hit vs level 71 mobs - 0% Miss. Within Probability for 1 Def = .1% Miss (5.5%), possibly confirms 1 Def = .08 Miss (Crezax) (5.4%) or 1 Def = .04 Miss (5.2%)(Tooltip). Statistically impossible for it to be 1% per level + .04% per defense (6.2%) with the tests I've done so far, my base Miss would be 6.2 and a .87% miss chance would be noticed over 1000 attacks.
Oh, and Crit Rating should be valued lower than Agility or Strength by quite a bit. 22.1 Rating for 1% crit versus 25 Agi for 1% crit and 25 AP. I don't think there's much competition honestly, Druids like Stats.
3) Avoid haste buffs from gear
Haste is generally designed around either casters, hunters or Dual Wielders. While druids DO benefit from it, chances are that there is other gear around that will grant you a larger DPS benefit. Leave the haste gear for fury warriors, rogues and hunters IMO.
We've had two Dragonspine Trophies the past two weeks of Gruul. I was planning on grabbing one after our regular DPS had it. I figure it's worth a looksee considering maybe 30-40% of my damage most fights is pure white damage, though I'd have to run some long tests compared to my hourglass or Bladefist's to be sure. I think losing the crit rating on either of those would be painful, but I wonder if Druids have the Trophy and are reporting strong dps gains.
JUICE! Aww I'm sorry. Did... did anyone want some juice?
We've had two Dragonspine Trophies the past two weeks of Gruul. I was planning on grabbing one after our regular DPS had it. I figure it's worth a looksee considering maybe 30-40% of my damage most fights is pure white damage, though I'd have to run some long tests compared to my hourglass or Bladefist's to be sure. I think losing the crit rating on either of those would be painful, but I wonder if Druids have the Trophy and are reporting strong dps gains.
I didn't say "avoid haste buffs like they doom you". I will however recommend that you pass for any DPS class that would benefit more from it than you, especially dual wielders.
If it is an upgrade, of course take it, but chances are that you will possibly have a replacement in sight very soon. Personally i believe that even Hoursglass of the Unraveller provides more DPS for a druid than Dragonspine Trophies, it adds critical strike rating and the AP is a powerful combination with Shred and finishing moves.
2 hours of finding and killing level 73's with 5.52% Hit
White: 1351 attacks: 95 (7.03%)Hit, 372 (27.54%)Crit, 555 (41.08%)Glanced (ouch), 47 (3.48%)Miss, 282 (20.87%)Dodge+Parry
Yellow: 518 attacks: 282 (54.44%)Hit, 114 (22.01%)Crit, 26 (5.02%)Miss, 96 (18.53%)Dodge+Parry
1869 total Attacks: 73 total Miss (3.91%), 378 total Dodge+Parry (20.22%).
5.52 + 3.91 = 9.43% miss rate experienced as well as 10.11% Dodge and Parry.
I really don't know what to say about this. It's pretty obvious I'm wrong about it being .08 or .1 per defense for level +3 and something like +3% miss + .x per defense certainly works here (though there's a .83% difference between observed and .02 per defense)
I was testing +hit gear on white attacks, 73 scorpions in blades edge. Still need increase sample size but it's looking likely that white damage does indeed have a base 8.6% chance to miss in cat form. Posting some screens on the off chance you might find the data useful. CHL equipped for a total of +18 fcsr.
Ochiba said:
We should probably put that in context by posting actual damage per second and mentioning whether any pots were used if we want to discuss actual druid damage potential.
My own DPS is rather meh but I'm working on it. I'll post actual numbers from this week later.
I'd like to return to this question if we could (and I'd like to see your numbers!). I liked the discussion on +hit that recently concluded in this thread but DPS numbers still nag at me, and I'm not equipped with the time or mental fortitude to do for cat what Bekah did for oomkin, so instead I'd like to collect some data if I can.
To start off, here are my numbers from tonight's Gruul kill.
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...4035,4410&a=16
My gear is in the Armory. The Vest of Vengeance is an eyesore, I know.
I was in a group of Enh Shaman/Fury Warrior/Rogue/Rogue/me.
Buffs: Juju Power (although I think this failed to stack with something, since I didn't see it on me all night...), Flask of AP, Fel Strength, Major Agi, Major Str, Salv, Kings, [Rumsey Rum & Stam food].
I'm not experienced at all with DPSing on my cat as I spend much of my time in 5, 10, and 25-mans tanking. I think my 'shot cycle' in cat was fairly poor, particularly in terms of Mangle timing, but I'm not sure as to the extent of the damage lost to that.
I was somewhat disappointed with this result given how heavily I potted, but I don't really have another feral druid benchmark to judge my damage by.
I'd like to return to this question if we could (and I'd like to see your numbers!). I liked the discussion on +hit that recently concluded in this thread but DPS numbers still nag at me, and I'm not equipped with the time or mental fortitude to do for cat what Bekah did for oomkin, so instead I'd like to collect some data if I can.
To start off, here are my numbers from tonight's Gruul kill.
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...4035,4410&a=16
My gear is in the Armory. The Vest of Vengeance is an eyesore, I know.
I was in a group of Enh Shaman/Fury Warrior/Rogue/Rogue/me.
Buffs: Juju Power (although I think this failed to stack with something, since I didn't see it on me all night...), Flask of AP, Fel Strength, Major Agi, Major Str, Salv, Kings, [Rumsey Rum & Stam food].
I'm not experienced at all with DPSing on my cat as I spend much of my time in 5, 10, and 25-mans tanking. I think my 'shot cycle' in cat was fairly poor, particularly in terms of Mangle timing, but I'm not sure as to the extent of the damage lost to that.
I was somewhat disappointed with this result given how heavily I potted, but I don't really have another feral druid benchmark to judge my damage by.
I'm not really sure what you're asking for with this post. Are you looking for DPS comparisons? If so, are you looking for Druid vs Druid comparisons, or 'benchmarking' us up against the 'pure' melee?
As far as our DPS cycle goes, you really just have to keep the train of thought that, "I cannot waste CPs". As soon as you get that stuck fast in your head, and think about the effect your next ability might have on potential combo point usage, then you're golden. I strongly suggest some sort of debuff timer mod, similar to nECB, to track Rip and Mangle durations; it helps immensely.
Also a simple adjustment to most feral cycles is understanding where to put the Mangle. Mangle, optimally, should be almost exclusively your 1st/2nd CP (crit dependant). Also, Mangle NEEDS to be applied within 2 seconds after a Rip. That's the only way to ensure that Rip gets the full Mangle benefit w/o wasting CPs. Also, never, never, never, never (did I mention never?) Shred unless Mangle is up. It's just not worth it, ever. If you find yourself outside of these guidelines, then you need to check your cycle, see where you can improve upon it. If that means more +crit/agi, then get more crit/agi. Usually though, the problem lies in +hit, though that's often hard to prove, and I'm mostly biased
Something I'm curious about, and haven't really done a whole lot of testing, is the value of 4pt Rips. Let's say that Mangle just expired, only 4CPs on the target, 0-10 energy remaining. What's the best way to maximize our damage in this scenario? Would it be best to Rip->Mangle (through powershifting to conserve time), or Mangle->Rip, and hope that you don't miss a Rip tic between Mangle re-applications? Right now, for me, since I'm used to watching my DoT timers, I'll Mangle->Rip, then keep an eye out for a chance to stagger the Mangle after the Rip. But is that the best way?
For reference, I don't have any troubles DPSing. I'm frequently in the top 3 of whatever melee is in the raid, and depending on the fight, am usually in the top 5 overall. It's not the best, but I'm very consistantly dealing 800-1k DPS, on almost any fight, regardless of fight mechanics.
I'm not really sure what you're asking for with this post. Are you looking for DPS comparisons? If so, are you looking for Druid vs Druid comparisons, or 'benchmarking' us up against the 'pure' melee?
Druid vs. Druid. Sorry, I thought I made that clear.
Also a simple adjustment to most feral cycles is understanding where to put the Mangle. Mangle, optimally, should be almost exclusively your 1st/2nd CP (crit dependant). Also, Mangle NEEDS to be applied within 2 seconds after a Rip. That's the only way to ensure that Rip gets the full Mangle benefit w/o wasting CPs.
Right. Yeah, I haven't been consistent enough about this. I guess my biggest mistake in this department is Ripping when I only have 30-40 energy rather than letting it tick for a Mangle buffer.
Did you both note that under Sol's 6.09 and 6.60 +hit samples, that the miss percentage was constant? Granted, small sample size, but might this not be simply the rumored "fixed" miss chance that can't be mitigated/avoided? Might this help explain your most recent results Boevis, if there is a fixed miss chance?
I doubt it, if that was the case then the miss rate for 7.04% and 8.94% should be constant as well. I'm going to go back and increase sample size to 1000++ when I get some free time, and I expect to get ~10 misses @ 7.04% and hopefully zero @ 8.94%.
Re: Feral DPS cycles. Tangedyn (just google his name) did some pretty hard number crunching on the optimal attack cycles. 5 point rip was always better than 4. The crunching might have been done pre-BC, but I can't think of anything that would really change the result.
Sol: Good point. What are you using to parse the combat logs btw?
The whole idea of 4 point finishers is just plain stupid if you ask me, it was a good theory, but we'll never reach the amount of crit necessary to make it work.
Granted i don't have a "mangle-bitch" i find the following dps cycle optimal:
1) Mangle, build 4-5 cps with Shred until mangle debuff wears off.
2) wait for 81+ Energy
3) Rip, Mangle, Shred as long as you have the debuff and <5 cp
4) repeat
I find using a 4 cp rip (if i don't crit and get some dodges) is better than an additional mangle/shred without the debuff just to get to 5 cp.
Unfortunately I don't have much opportunities to dps and quite frankly I prefer tanking anyway. However, I'll share a couple of experiences I had as a cat.
Firstly, here is our very first Gruul kill: http://www.ruin-guild.co.uk/images/images/gruuldm.jpg
The kill was roughly a month ago (2 weeks before the "fix") so my gear has changed quite substantially since. There's one maybe not so obvious flaw in that screenshot and that's that it includes the shatter damage, however at the time of the kill I played with SWS and removed the shatter damage which actually put me above 3 ppl just on top of me. Obviously you'll just have to take my word for that and it's probably also worth noting that I would have been buffed/flasked to the teeth.
My second example is Nightbane last week. During the flying phases I was helping the MT control the skeletons and ultimately lost a lot of dps time (30 secs per air phase x3 = 1minute 30 seconds of bear form I guess - not sure how long air phase is but 30 seconds seems right). However at the end of the fight I worked out my dps to have been 717 for the whole fight (simply damage dealt divided by time taken) and this was without any pots buffs or anything else which I thought was pretty damn good.
Last Magtheridon we had 5 warriors so I didn't have to tank for once. I thought I'd buff up a bit so here's the result: http://ruin-guild.co.uk/images/images/buffed.jpg
As you can see I didn't have my bloodlust brooch up at the time either. I really wish I had checked my dps or damage or somethinge else that I could measure my performance by, but I didn't so I have nothing to offer but my damage relative to the raids (me and the enhancement Shaman were leading by a fair amount but we were the only ones potted too).
I'm not very much into theorycrafting, I enjoy reading lengthy discussions though and so I pose this question as Athinira said he thinks haste should be avoided; given the t4 proc being a static 4%, wouldn't haste effects not only boost damage through extra swings, but more t4 procs (and OOC?) giving a better overall dps boost compared to other trinkets?
I ask this because I picked up Dragonspine Trophy the other day (without going into detail, I got it dirt cheap in a mainly caster raid) and personally I love it, it procs very often but at the same time having a worthless proc up 100% time is... worthless.
As a sort of disclaimer I guess, I don't dps much like I said at the very beginning and so my experiences could have been massive coincidences or whatever but I do belive feral dps is very strong atm and I'm just itching for Magtheridon this week to "benchmark" my dps properly (although I'll probably have to tank something).
On a sidenote (doesn't deserve its own thread i think), has anyone else noted that rip does significantly more damage than the tooltip states ?
According to the tooltip, a 5cp Rip should do 1092 Damage - several sources state Rip gains 24% of Attackpower as bonus. It's modified by Naturalist and Mangle (10% and 30%) as well as general damage buffs (such as 5% Damage in Terrokar).
I did some testing with varying AP values and the best i could come up with was that while 24% of AP is the correct scaling factor, the base value is 1554 rather than 1092.
I'm fairly certain that my math is correct and i felt like sharing it since an extra 462 Damage is nothing to laugh about.
(Formula for 5cp Rip damage per tick would be: (1554 + AP*.24)*1.1(Naturalist)*1.3(Mangle)/6 )
This is from this weeks mag kill. I tanked the first add (we kill the first 2 adds at the same time) and then I went into kitty to dps (throwing some innervates & combatrezz around).
My group didn't really have any dps buffs (only 1 warrior with battleshout) and my consumable use was minimal (strength potion and a 25 agility one, god I'm cheap! ) and I used my dps gear with arena shoulders (notice how I took heaps more damage than most of the other add tanks, only 50% armour reduction and 350 defence didn't help).
I'm pretty happy with the result, I wasn't on cubes though on that try but so where most of the dpsers.
[e] I've heard of ferals hitting 1K dps (other than the pre nerf swipe spam), I have no idea how they do that, unless they fully pot/flask up, and even then.
Solid night of effort on Morogrim. I was in a group with Warrior/ Enh Shaman/ Rogue/ Rogue. Consumables used were Onslaught/ Major Agi/ Mastery/ Assault/ Strength food. I logged out in my dps gear, so you can Armory me. I averaged 2 graves per attempt. I will probably wear the same next Magtheridon kill to compare.
Solid night of effort on Morogrim. I was in a group with Warrior/ Enh Shaman/ Rogue/ Rogue. Consumables used were Onslaught/ Major Agi/ Mastery/ Assault/ Strength food. I logged out in my dps gear, so you can Armory me. I averaged 2 graves per attempt. I will probably wear the same next Magtheridon kill to compare.
<--- confused
Are we looking at 5 attempts-worth of Morogrim? EDIT: I can't add :P
As far as consumables go, we have alot of stamina on most of our 'best' gear, so I've never felt bad about chugging the Fel Strength as opposed to Onslaught. If it's a problem, you could always offset it with Elix of Fort
Last edited by HaklePrime : 04/21/07 at 9:28 PM.
Reason: Blah, can't add
As far as consumables go, we have alot of stamina on most of our 'best' gear, so I've never felt bad about chugging the Fel Strength as opposed to Onslaught. If it's a problem, you could always offset it with Elix of Fort
Okay, don't laugh, but since I don't dps that often, so I didn't know about Fel Strength...
So next week for SSC, I'll have another 120 AP (actually 132 with that shaman). Let's see that rogue keep up now!
Thank god my wife has a 70 herbalist and doesn't mind farming for me.
Last edited by Alandriel : 04/22/07 at 2:32 AM.
Reason: Basic literacy on my part
I recently moved from a fairly casual kara guild to a more hard-core guild. Prior to move, I was usually very near the top of any instance or raid I was a part of. This annoyed the hell out of some players, and naturally they called for more druid nerfing, but in reality it was just that I had farmed most of the best feral gear out there. I wasn't cocky about it, but I was confident that my dps was good, and that even when not tanking, I was making a worthy contribution to the raid.
After the move, I'm so so far down the charts it gives me pause. It made me wonder if there was something about my technique that needs correcting. In general, I make sure to keep mangle up at all times. The rest of the time, I spam shred to 5 points and then rip. All the while, power-shifting any time my energy meter drops below 5 or 6 points.
Is this the generally accepted way for a cat to dps? Any pointers would be appreciated. If anyone has a link to a good write up, that'd work too.
04/11/07, 1:53 PM
) and I used my dps gear with arena shoulders (notice how I took heaps more damage than most of the other add tanks, only 50% armour reduction and 350 defence didn't help).
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