Also, looking back at the WWS parses from the last 2 days shows something very very interesting. In my current gear I have 81 hit rating (5.14%) and 20 feral combat skill rating (+5 feral weapon skill) from Shapeshifters Signet.
In all the fights were I was DPSing I had 0 misses other than Teron and Najentus and all the misses in those fights I can attribute to only having 320 2h mace skill and shifting for innervate/barkskin/res.
Am I missing something here or does this completely screw over any theories people had about how much hit we need - I thought it was 8.6% total (with Feral Skill giving 0.4% per point for the first 5. which would give me a total of 7.14%). Logged off in my DPS gear which is macroed through Closetgnome, and I haven't updated it in the last couple of days so it's definitely what I was using, other than replacing Primalstrike Belt for the Shadowwalkers Cord yesterday but that doesn't change the hit rating: The Armory
It would appear that in any fight where you can manage to do it perfectly, having any more than 2 rogues/2hwarriors will give you more benefit from keeping mangle up. However, purely from a "is this really going to help?" standpoint, you probably need 4 of the above classes (especially if your warriors are all DW), and even in that situation the difference is going to be negligible really.
Yeah, I think I agree with that conclusion. Thank you for providing your thoughts.
Cursed Vision of Sargeras
108 AP
39 Agi
38 Crit Rating
21 Hit Rating
Y - 10 Agi or 5 Agi / 5 Hit for the 6 Stam bonus
35 ap for 38 crit rating and 21 hit rating, plus the fucking awesome graphic versus probably the worst in the game, seems pretty solid choice for me. (graphic is definitely worth a bit to me) But again, thats only if you want to say screw it to 2piece tier 4 which is dumb.
Also, looking back at the WWS parses from the last 2 days shows something very very interesting. In my current gear I have 81 hit rating (5.14%) and 20 feral combat skill rating (+5 feral weapon skill) from Shapeshifters Signet.
In all the fights were I was DPSing I had 0 misses other than Teron and Najentus and all the misses in those fights I can attribute to only having 320 2h mace skill and shifting for innervate/barkskin/res.
Am I missing something here or does this completely screw over any theories people had about how much hit we need - I thought it was 8.6% total (with Feral Skill giving 0.4% per point for the first 5. which would give me a total of 7.14%). Logged off in my DPS gear which is macroed through Closetgnome, and I haven't updated it in the last couple of days so it's definitely what I was using, other than replacing Primalstrike Belt for the Shadowwalkers Cord yesterday but that doesn't change the hit rating: The Armory
This looks like statistical anomalies to me, I have seen odd things happen on WWS logs before. Personal favorite was the Rage Winterchill where with just shy of 50% crit, I rolled a total average of 26% crit on the fight, likewise with a Teron Gorefiend where I rolled a 29% crit on average. But yeah, with 1% miss, you are going to see fights where you don't miss, especially with how quick your guild kills these bosses.
Coming to the conclusion that we just aren't putting up the DPS numbers that we should, it is becoming more and more apparent that something needs to be done.
I hate to bring this up again, but it has been addressed on numerous occasions, with dozens of pointed arguments and promises of "we are looking into it." Hell, people have even been banned over it. But lets face it, Procs are needed, primarily Windfury. This is a painful subject for most of us, simply because we have been thoroughly shitstomped by arguing this over and over, but once again I want to address this. We had them in the BC beta, it felt balanced, druids were not seen warping around simultaneously soloing 5 man arena teams and killing raid bosses with their all mighty procs. Again, this is one of those things that just seems to have no logical argument behind blocking us from having.
Is always my favorite, the Druid and the Rogues share the same group with the same setup, yet the Rogues nearly double the Druids DPS and damage, the Enhancement Shaman and Warrior are nearly 50% above on both accounts as well. You may say this Druid is shit, or the rogues are INSANE, but there is very little I can see about this druid that doesn't tell isn't pretty solid on dps and gear.
This leads me to my latest revelation, scaling is broken, we do not advance through tier 6 at proper rates. "Why?" you may ask, primarily because of haste rating and the procs that it gives. Rogues/Warriors/Enhancement Shaman are able to stack haste rating on gear, stack the procs that give it, stack heroism/bloodlust, stack haste equivalent skills such as flurry and slice and dice, stack the pots and enchants that give it, and combine that all with a wonderful totem that adds to all this to produce numbers that are clinically retarded.(see above)
Now I am not saying that Druids aren't able to get haste rating and pot on cooldown and all that, we can get Dragonspine, we can use haste pots(albeit at a significant cost), and we can get Heroism/Bloodlust, but we cannot justify our spot in a DPS group. The facts are there, we are NOT doing the damage we should, procs are a part of this. Why? Because on top of not being able to utilize Windfury when in the group, we are largely ignored from a spot in a warrior/shaman/rogue/rogue group over another rogue or warrior because we will not top the damage of a rogue or warrior even considering that we are providing 5 crit to the group, there is simply no contention there. Largely Ferals are limited to a Hunter group aura, in which case we are largely limited from our dps potential, or we are in the MT group again restricting potential.
Weapon procs will not break druids, they are not brutally overpowered, none currently exist on our *druid* weapons right now, so it isn't even an issue until new tiers. Weapon enchants are quite balanced as it is, we would gain nothing more than a rogue gets with just one weapon equipped, we do not have an offhand for double procs, there is nothing that would "overpower" druids with having windfury or having mongoose on our gear.
I just plugged both into my simulator and ran it over 100,000 sec, the haste gloves were better by about 7dps.
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We had them in the BC beta, it felt balanced, druids were not seen warping around simultaneously soloing 5 man arena teams and killing raid bosses with their all mighty procs.
TLDR - YuO GieV WInDFUrRY!
Actually, no it didn't feel balanced in the slightest while tanking. The problem with windfury is that they need to be VERY careful how they implement it. It needs to have a limiter on it so that while in bear form it isn't active, and in cat form it is. Threat generation is already pretty damned good in bear, with windfury it would be pretty ridiculous - bear form is (imo) balanced fine right now, just lacking cooldown abilities which is maybe what it should be because of "hybridding".
It appears that both forms use the same weapon system (assumed because of feral combat skill affecting both) and so they would have to rework the system to sort it out. Considering that the only people it affects are feral druids doing DPS in high end content, it seems like a problem that they'll only get around to fixing once a significant number of people are there.
The other thing to consider is the severe knockon effect on both OoC and Malorne 2 piece, and if you were to implement windfury, would you allow druids mongoose? 136 AP, ~2% haste and ~5.4% crit is a pretty sick proc, but then rogues can get double procs, so is it that bad? I don't think so.
Your example druid - who isn't a bad example primarily, but he lacks both OoC and 2t4 by the looks of it which is just weird. He also has a 24% crit rate on shred and only 66 ticks of rip (132 seconds) over a 230 second fight, probably at least partly because of shred crit rate and the lack of OoC/2t4.
267 attacks in that fight (including specials) - If we add windfury on to that we get:
267*0.2 = 53 extra attacks with 579 AP added (637 with unleashed rage).
Taking his average melee hit of 379, crit of 852 with a crit rate of 45%, average windfury hit would be approximately:
(windfury*armour*crit%*critmulti) + (average hit from hits and crits)
((637/14)*0.8*(1.45*(1+0.03+0.10)))+((379*.55)+(852*0.45)) = (45.5*1.3108) + (208+383.4) = 59.6+591.4 = 651
or a total extra damage of 34503 damage over the fight from windfury alone.
Procs wise, I can't compare for him because he (apparently) gained 0 clearcasts and 0 Bloodlust (2t4) procs. Therefore taking an average over my last 3 terons:
120+320+60 = 500 total, average of 167 per fight.
12+5+9 = 26 total, average of 8.7 per fight.
Scaling these up for 20% more attacks gives an extra 33.4 (or average 2 procs) from 2t4, and 1.74 (or average of 2 procs) for OoC. This is the equavalent of 3 extra shreds, or ~7.5k extra damage.
So, total contribution from windfury is maybe 40k damage, over a period of approximately 3minutes 50, or 175 DPS total.
Upshot is: For cat form it's not overpowered in the slightest at this level. If they could implement it in such a way at this level, it would be a decent increase but not an overpowering one. Adding OoC, 2t4 and windfury on to his ~1150 current DPS would put him at around 1450 DPS (~80 from OoC, ~50 from 2t5, ~170 from windfury), which is certainly competitive in those damage meters.
The other issue is not so much procs, but itemisation in general. For DPS we lack any offset gear specifically designed for druid DPS past Terestians Stranglestaff - every other piece past that has either bonus armour or bonus intellect. Although I love being able to be a hybrid, those stats do NOTHING for me on fights where I don't use them (see: teron, kaz'rogal, najentus to name a few). I do wish they'd stop putting intellect on our tier sets - base mana pool is more than enough and if they converted it into AP/crit rating (healthy mix of both to get the most out of ilevel) then I think everyone would be happier (except people who look at druid stats from screenshots and go LOL OVERPOWERED because we have 5350 AP and 46% crit, while rogues in the same raid are running around with more crit and weapons with over 100 dps base).
TLDR version - windfury wouldn't be overpowered as long as you only implement it in cat. I hope the developers are actually looking at WWS's from the top guilds and seeing how classes are over/underperforming in comparison to each other.
Sadris: Fair enough - maybe haste has a bit more of an impact with better gear than we think (in which case I might stick with shadowalkers cord - don't really have any options at the moment anyway).
Is always my favorite, the Druid and the Rogues share the same group with the same setup, yet the Rogues nearly double the Druids DPS and damage, the Enhancement Shaman and Warrior are nearly 50% above on both accounts as well. You may say this Druid is shit, or the rogues are INSANE, but there is very little I can see about this druid that doesn't tell isn't pretty solid on dps and gear.
Just to play devil's advocate, rogue/fury warrior/enh shaman synergy is so good that you can't use those classes as a basis for DPS comparison. Comparing feral DPS to the other DPS classes/specs, I don't see a dire situation.
The trend I see in BT/Hyjal parses is "melee group of death" classes and warlocks topping meters, with the odd BM hunter or mage performing well on certain fights. Ferals aren't being outperformed by the other hybrid-class DPS specs (with the possible exception of enh shamans with BT weapons). For example, instead of looking at the rogues doing 2000 DPS, look at the classes Dukes is outperforming in the set of BT/Hyjal WWS he linked above.
I'm hardly against druids getting procs; I've always thought the reasoning against procs and potion-use in forms is tenuous at best. I just think the rogue/cat comparison is tired and absurd at this point. With combat potency + haste + windfury totem, rogues are making everyone look puny.
Last edited by Patterns... : 07/28/07 at 11:13 AM.
Reason: missing word
I think feral dps is fine, even maybe a little overboard at the beginning of TBC. However, we're really looking at the relative growth rate for every class, and druids really get the shaft here when every class is growing faster than druids in dps. This is especially true with procs and haste effect. Warriors, Shaman, and Rogues all have abilities that increase their attack speed by 30%, which is a lot to increase proc rate on various stuff. As a result, their DPS increase with gear in degree of two, if the druid is increasing at degree of one. In addition, the point allocation wasted on our weapon as well as attempting to hybridize our weapon (i.e Pillar of Ferocity) is rather annoying; we do not need a 70dps staff, so please take away the extra dps and add it to str, agi, or fap. We can swap weapons in combat, so give us a staff with 50ish dps (that's base, i believe, much like caster's 41.4) with plenty of stats on it and no armor. We DON'T need hybridizing of weapon.
Other than that, give us a innate ability to buff ourselves much like the 30% speed they get, except maybe a % increase to our AP since haste isn't our focus. This will help druids scale better, in my opinion
The concept of SnD for Feral has always intrigued me.
Take Dukes Gathion WWS, substituting a SnD for every other Rip (so 15 SnD)
15 * 30 = 450. 540 seconds of dps time. 450/540=83.33% SnD Uptime.
.8333*.3(haste bonus)*246,062 (white) = 61515.5 bonus white damage
118,463(rip)/2 = 59231.5 damage lost from rips
20*.3*83% = 5 Clearcasting
35*.3*83% = 8.75 Bloodlust
9 Bonus Shreds or 22500 bonus shred damage
1 Bonus Rips or 3948 bonus rip damage.
28732 more damage total, or an extra 53 DPS.
I honestly think a Haste effect is a better choice than giving us procs, since it wouldn't effect Bear in the least, and as mentioned earlier, giving bear WF/Mongoose would just be not right. Just give cat Flurry or a 40% SnD (I say 40% because 30% only gives 53 dps, I personally believe we should be within "I did my cycles properly" of matching warrior/shaman dps)
I think a finishing move which scales with both AP and crit would be a step in the right direction. (The abortion known as eviscerate doesn't count =p )
The concept of SnD for Feral has always intrigued me.
Take Dukes Gathion WWS, substituting a SnD for every other Rip (so 15 SnD)
15 * 30 = 450. 540 seconds of dps time. 450/540=83.33% SnD Uptime.
.8333*.3(haste bonus)*246,062 (white) = 61515.5 bonus white damage
118,463(rip)/2 = 59231.5 damage lost from rips
20*.3*83% = 5 Clearcasting
35*.3*83% = 8.75 Bloodlust
9 Bonus Shreds or 22500 bonus shred damage
1 Bonus Rips or 3948 bonus rip damage.
28732 more damage total, or an extra 53 DPS.
I honestly think a Haste effect is a better choice than giving us procs, since it wouldn't effect Bear in the least, and as mentioned earlier, giving bear WF/Mongoose would just be not right. Just give cat Flurry or a 40% SnD (I say 40% because 30% only gives 53 dps, I personally believe we should be within "I did my cycles properly" of matching warrior/shaman dps)
One thing to note about using that Gathion WWS - every single melee was threat capped (including me as I didn't have salv and didn't realise I'd need it until it was point out I was 3k above the tank after 2 minutes ;p - 6 cowers shows how close I was at points) so the gap could easily be bigger between me and the rest of them. Boomkat is _always_ threat capped, regardless of fight.
A haste finishing move would certainly be interesting - maybe something like "2% of AP in haste rating per combo point", which would be fine imo, 4.6k AP is something that I would say is "standard" for me while raid buffed (without trinkets), which returns 460 haste rating or ~44% haste rating. Maybe that's slightly too much, but I know blizzard like to use integers (1.5% of AP in haste rating would sound weird) and 1% is slightly too low. They could use 2% of critical strike % in haste rating per point (returning ~50% haste for 50% crit, which I'm starting to get close to raid buffed - 39.57% crit unbuffed without the 0.5% crit 5 feral skill). That would probably work better, but it favours stacking agility even more so than now, and I'm pretty sure blizzard intended strength to be the main DPS stat.
They could even mix it up a bit and do 1% of AP + 1% of critical strike %age per point (around 500 haste rating with both 5k ap/50% crit). It would certainly help to even the odds, but I'm not sure if 50% haste is pushing it a bit (but then, doing 2347 dps on kazrogal as one of our rogues did is just freaking ridiculous).
Personally I'd like to see better itemisation and maybe a slight self buff from fairie fire(feral). 10% haste would be good, and would work for both bear and cat form (seeing as bear gains marginally from melee haste towards threat gen). Windfury instead of the fairie fire haste would be good too .
The point of giving us windfury though is to make it viable to place a druid in a "standard" dps group and for it to be optimal. I feel we should be in that spot, war, en sham, rogue, rogue, druid. We currently are better replaced by a rogue or even another warrior in most fights because of the SIGNIFICANT increases in dps windfury provides.
I would love to see another pve finisher, as our current selection leaves something to be desired, especially on void reaver(LOL COMBO POINTS) and other mechanical/undead mobs and bosses. Ferocious Bite has always been a joke, and Maim did nothing other than increase survivability slightly on pre-Kael trash when mages are slacking.
But again, I suggest windfury because it is simply the easiest/quickest fix they could make, as bandaid fixes are always what druids receive when it comes to addressing our MAJOR issues.
Personally I would like to see Tiger's Fury changed to a finishing move. Make it maintain the +dmg bonus, and add a haste effect or a +crit effect to it per combo point. Another would be something like:
Cauterize
Finishing move
"Seals enemy wounds, causing bleed damage and forcing the druid into a state of bloodlust, increasing attack speed"
1cp: 20% of bleed damage from rip and rake, .2% of AP in haste rating
2cp: 40% '' '' '' " " " " .4% " " " " "
etc
edit for clarification: this would work similar to conflagrate/swiftmend, and would allow great synergy with alternating rip, as well as making rake possibly useful.
I honestly do not think that's overpowered, but is what is required to acutally make me think about using this move for anything other than stealth launched openers. If I could keep it up perfectly it would add 47 dps. Not exactly game breaking given my current numbers, or the numbers of people with better gear than me.
Unfortunately I think that's about as likley to happen as getting a non combat point generated self buff :[
And while we're all bitching and moaning about how our dps is not keeping up with the Jone's, spare a thought for those poor RetNub's :]
I think a great deal of the gap would disappear if the dev's bothered to put in actual cat gear and not rogue items that suck less than all the other rogue items or the hybrid t6 set.
The new bp is a good start, but we need actual cat gear. Not no-crit rogue items, not high-armor bear items.
I think a great deal of the gap would disappear if the dev's bothered to put in actual cat gear and not rogue items that suck less than all the other rogue items or the hybrid t6 set.
The new bp is a good start, but we need actual cat gear. Not no-crit rogue items, not high-armor bear items.
cat gear needs high agi. Yes, i agree we want Str more than AP, but in terms of rogue gear, we don't need too much extra itemization on ARMOR, we need better WEAPON and scaling
I came across this WWS (Deus Vox) which I think is a better example of endgame feral dps. There also was a Teron parse that expired with the same druid doing similar numbers. Her gear is very very good and unlike a lot of other similar progressed druids you see in other parses she bothered to learn how to powershift. Skimming over the log it looks like it allows her to change the cycle just a bit by using mangle before rip and with the energy from powershifting she can always re apply the mangle right as it runs out. This also gives her maximum benefit from the BT trinket. My point is that this is someone that maximizes her dps output and I think is a better example of tier 6 druid dps potential than the one you linked.
I came across this WWS (Deus Vox) which I think is a better example of endgame feral dps. There also was a Teron parse that expired with the same druid doing similar numbers. Her gear is very very good and unlike a lot of other similar progressed druids you see in other parses she bothered to learn how to powershift. Skimming over the log it looks like it allows her to change the cycle just a bit by using mangle before rip and with the energy from powershifting she can always re apply the mangle right as it runs out. This also gives her maximum benefit from the BT trinket. My point is that this is someone that maximizes her dps output and I think is a better example of tier 6 druid dps potential than the one you linked.
1. She's specced and geared for full DPS, not spectacular, but 20% mangle damage and mana reduction on shifting does help. No arguing about "she can tank" or "she can heal" because her spec makes her as useful for tanking as a Fury warrior, who you will notice she did 100 less DPS than. I would kill to be able to resocket/enchant all my gear for DPS.
2. She powershifted 18 times in a 202 second fight, that's something like 10500 mana. At the end of that fight, I'd bet good money she was OOM, probably didn't even have the mana for another shift. On such a short fight, even I can pull off amazing numbers with my T4 level DPS gear (one kazzak I did 1200 dps)
Weapon is a single slot, and not itemized that much worse than any other option.
There are 12 armor slots, and not ONE is filled with a properly made BT/Hyjal cat dps item.
1. She's specced and geared for full DPS, not spectacular, but 20% mangle damage and mana reduction on shifting does help. No arguing about "she can tank" or "she can heal" because her spec makes her as useful for tanking as a Fury warrior, who you will notice she did 100 less DPS than. I would kill to be able to resocket/enchant all my gear for DPS.
Not having the threat generation talent is a tad odd, though perhaps unnecessary with the gear she has for tanking. Regardless though, that talent can easily be added at the expense of Brutal Impact and Nature's Grasp which would allow for a full tanking spec along with no reduction in DPS ability. Further if we're looking at top end druid DPS it would only stand to reason you would compare people in full DPS gear (socketed and gemmed appropriately).
2. She powershifted 18 times in a 202 second fight, that's something like 10500 mana. At the end of that fight, I'd bet good money she was OOM, probably didn't even have the mana for another shift. On such a short fight, even I can pull off amazing numbers with my T4 level DPS gear (one kazzak I did 1200 dps)
Im unclear exactly how passive regen works in cat form, but assuming you're mostly out of the 5 sec rule (does FFF put you in it?) she would, unbuffed have gotten like 4600 mana back just through that regen. Buffed it would be even more than that. Granted short fights will allow for this type of burst easier, using mana pots or whatnot (dark runes etc) should allow for this level of powershifting almost indefinitely.
I copied Lamissa's spec and did some heroics (alts with blue gear ftw, was able to hog the damage and see what numbers came up). The first one didn't go so well, I kept shifting at unfortunate times on bosses. I rebound my catform key to a mouse button and tried again and had much more success. Boevis has a point about the mana issue, I would find myself rationing my shifts on the bossfights.
The lack of FB damage also hurt on the trashpacks, where typically it's mangle, one or two shreds til mob is near dead, FB, powershift, next mob. While trash mob dps is not considered often as it is a non-optimal cycle for just about everyone, I felt that the difference in FB's was more significant in terms of overall run dps than the extra damage on the boss fights. Unfortunately, I'm not in the habit of keeping records of heroic clears or raid trash. On raid trash where you can sometimes get a rull rip or two up on a trash mob if you skip a target or on a solo mob... not enough data at this time.
On the boss mobs themselves I powershifted at every opportunity until I only had enough mana for one more shift. I still used a typical cycle of mangle, shreds, powershift and rip, but I was also actively powershifting between shreds about every other cycle. Sometimes this would enable an extra shred during a rip timer, other times it would only ensure that there was a minimum delay between rips. (I do not have the ashtongue trinket, so I did not keep mangle up 100%)
It felt more hectic and the almost continual rips felt good (even got the mangle bug twice on Bladefist). But the lack of straight up tank'n'spank fights in heroics is not condusive to accurate testing. Fun was had, but as I typically use my innervate on a spriest to power the mage group's mana, I agree with Boevis that this level of DPS is not sustainable over a long fight. The standard powershifting routine is what I will have to live with for now. Double tanking the first and second target on Kael's weapons, Mag's and the like makes Feral Instinct too important to me to give up for Natural Dhapeshifter.
Im unclear exactly how passive regen works in cat form, but assuming you're mostly out of the 5 sec rule (does FFF put you in it?) she would, unbuffed have gotten like 4600 mana back just through that regen. Buffed it would be even more than that. Granted short fights will allow for this type of burst easier, using mana pots or whatnot (dark runes etc) should allow for this level of powershifting almost indefinitely.
Shifting triggers 5sec rule. Unbuffed regen is 46/47 mana per tick for me (base tauren spirit plus 6stats). 18shifts in 202seconds would leave ~112 seconds of regen time, or 56 ticks, for ~2600mana unbuffed. Adding spirit buff and kings would give me an additional ~70 spirit, which should get me to ~63mana/tick.
Shifting every 15sec leaves me 20 ticks/minute, or 1260 mana/minute. Four shifts per minute would consume 2320 mana/minute. 1060 mana consumed per minute. You could keep up with that with SMPs.
Shifting every 12sec leaves 35sec of regen, 17.5 ticks, call it 1103 mana/minute gained. Five shifts per minute takes 2900 mana. Spending 1797 mana/minute there. Chaining SMPs you should be able to maintain that for quite awhile. (Total drain after SMPs would be ~600mana/minute.)
07/27/07, 4:01 PM
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