Though I do think the main point behind the whole "hat" thing is that T6 hat is the last item you'll get and T5 hat is bad.
As for shoulders, I think the main problem is that you're comparing T4 to T5 and not T4 to every item available in that slot, take a brief look using the upgrade button from the modified spreadsheet shows 1 upgrade for t4 shoulders if you're using the t4 gloves to keep set bonus, and that's t6, compared to gloves which have a multitude of upgrades including Gloves of Dexterous Manipulation.
edit: Ugh, T5 shoulders were listed as 24 agi in the spreadsheet not 35, and just about every socket bonus was screwed up.
Not arguing with your conclusions, but how do you get an AEP of 1.24 for Str and 1.32 for Agi?
Str 2.72
Agi 2.9
Hit 1.9
cut for clarity
Though I do think the main point behind the whole "hat" thing is that T6 hat is the last item you'll get and T5 hat is bad.
As for shoulders, I think the main problem is that you're comparing T4 to T5 and not T4 to every item available in that slot, take a brief look using the upgrade button from the modified spreadsheet shows 1 upgrade for t4 shoulders if you're using the t4 gloves to keep set bonus, and that's t6, compared to gloves which have a multitude of upgrades including Gloves of Dexterous Manipulation.
edit: Ugh, T5 shoulders were listed as 24 agi in the spreadsheet not 35, and just about every socket bonus was screwed up.
I use a slightly modified version of Lolaan's cat dps spreadsheet for my AEP numbers
2.90/2.72 = 1.066
1.32/1.24 = 1.064
Your agi/str ratio is pretty much the same as mine, as I would expect for most druids that try to keep a decent balance of AGI and STR. The actual numbers are relative.
I totally agree that there is no reason to hold on to the 2pc T5 bonus, if you can get better, by all means do so, and if you want the 2pc T5, you only need 2 pieces, not 3, so don't hesitate to replace one.
Is it just me or did you completely forget that T6 Gloves have a Socket and T4 don't ?
Looks like it. Assuming you want to get the socket bonus (which isn't completely perverse), you'd probably go for a [Shifting Nightseye] in which case that's going to give you an extra 4 agi and 2 str, which will push it above the helm in terms of upgrades from tier 4.
<Fric> I think the only kind of gay buttsex I'd enjoy on any level would be assraping a smug hipster douchebag (also possibly a roid head and/or fratboy/Jersey Shore cast member)
Using Boevis' numbers, and assuming all sockets are [Delicate Living Ruby] (which would give a higher AEP than matching for socket bonuses, i think?) i get:
Is it just me, or is this far more confusing than it ought to be?! =P
I picked up T5 shoulders last night and I have T5 pants. I have 5/5 T4, all gemmed/enchanted for tanking, though I use T5 pants in my tanking set now. In DPS gear, I use Malorne Shoulders and Gloves currently for 2 pc bonus, even though the shoulders have the tanking enchant on them (15 Agi on gloves is the same for both). I am currently logged out in my DPS gear so you can see the other slots.
Here's my question: how should I gem the shoulders? I'm going to stick with the Malorne shoulders for tanking, so I've decided I definatly want the DPS enchant on my new T5, but for gems I'm not sure. I can either go with a stam/dps mix for use in PvP (I don't PvP much so I don't have PvP gear and I kinda want 2 pc T5 for PvP since it should be useful there) or just go all-out DPS for PvE. But if I gem them for use in my PvE DPS set, I will then lose 2 pc T4 bonus since I'm currently using shoulder/gloves. I guess then I would use the T4 helm for DPS, even though it is also enchanted/gemmed for tanking.
And finally, you will notice that I gemmed my chest all weird. Don't ask what I was thinking, because I honestly can't remember why I chose those gems (probably I had them cut and lying around so decided to use them). Would you recommend I re-gem that chest ([Bloodsea Brigand's Vest]) with 3x 8 Agi gems, or is there another DPS chest I should wait for or just gem this up cause I'll have it for a while (currently my guild is on Kael, so Hyjal/BT will be soon, but the later bosses in those zones are still far away)?
Edit - I think my last question is answered above...looks like Shadow Prowler's is a clear upgrade once 2.2 hits. Guess I'll start collecting those mats and get a LW to save some nethers for me!
currently my guild is on Kael, so Hyjal/BT will be soon, but the later bosses in those zones are still far away?
Nether Shadow tunic is off Supremus (easymode to get to once you kill Kael) and is significantly better than anything else iirc as long as you can use the hit rating.
Nether Shadow tunic is off Supremus (easymode to get to once you kill Kael) and is significantly better than anything else iirc as long as you can use the hit rating.
Hmm, that is nice. Thing is, I'm sitting at 163 hit atm in cat gear. =P How would you rate that against Shadowprowler's if you ignore the hit?
Edit - and how appealing is this to Rogues? I usually don't go for the DPS stuff that Rogues are after until it's dropped a couple times, since I won't use it 100% of the time and they will.
Most rogues would rather have either the [Midnight Chestguard] or T6. Archimonde is not a long way away once you start Hyjal/BT, so the midnight at least is a definite viable alternative for them. We've had 4 drop (first to a rogue, second druid, third DPS warrior (he was using a blue chest at the time), fourth druid). It depends more on luck of drops than anything else really, but it also depends on DKP (guild dependant).
Well 52 stam is a lot. With that stamina (and the extra armour) you could use the [Nether Shadow Tunic] for tanking stuff, should you be so inclined, whereas I'd not tank very much in the [Shadowprowler's Chestguard], so I although I'm pretty sure I'll be making myself one, if I was about to start in BT I probably wouldn't. Does that help?!
<Fric> I think the only kind of gay buttsex I'd enjoy on any level would be assraping a smug hipster douchebag (also possibly a roid head and/or fratboy/Jersey Shore cast member)
Well 52 stam is a lot. With that stamina (and the extra armour) you could use the [Nether Shadow Tunic] for tanking stuff, should you be so inclined, whereas I'd not tank very much in the [Shadowprowler's Chestguard], so I although I'm pretty sure I'll be making myself one, if I was about to start in BT I probably wouldn't. Does that help?!
Yeah, the Stam does look good. Normally I tend to ignore stam, but that much is hard to ignore! I guess it will depend on when 2.2 goes live. If it's next Tuesday, I'll probably go ahead and get a LW to hook me up. But if it's still 3 weeks away, we should be spending some decent time in BT by then (I hope =P).
Is it just me or did you completely forget that T6 Gloves have a Socket and T4 don't ?
Grr, yes, forgot about sockets completely... /bonk
Significant changes would be +socket on legs(T5,T6) and +socket on gloves(T6)
Using for consistency:
Str 2.72
Agi 2.9
Hit 1.9
Assuming best possible gems in each piece(usually 8agi for T5 or less and 12agi for T6 or less), ignoring bonuses when it wouldn't benefit the total value, etc. and using Relentless Earthstorm Diamond meta on helm(meta is relative, since they all have the same number of meta sockets.)
Using Boevis' numbers, and assuming all sockets are [Delicate Living Ruby] (which would give a higher AEP than matching for socket bonuses, i think?) i get:
which would make equiping those extra peices of T4 an even better choice, unless i've missed something?
Not rechecking your math since I recall doing the math and yeah the 4 piece T4 bonus does make 4 pieces of T4 extremely good. I think my personal numbers were a bit different from Boevis' but its definately very close using either of the two setups you mentionned. Im using (or will be once Shadowprowler's is out) the first since my T4 chest is used gemmed for tanking but either would work for dps.
Even if your T6 would be equally good enchanted/gemmed for dps, 2pc T4 would still outweight the stat increase of two T6 pieces.
Is there a spreadsheet with some proof of that? Counting 4piece t6 as a constant benefit for dps, while 2piece t4 can be somewhat random proc.
Also, from purely DPS pov, I thought Ashtongue Talisman of Equilibrium + Tsunami Talisman looked like the best combo for druids. Especially considering the incoming nerf of haste rating.
I used my own spreadsheet to calculate that (which isn't ready yet in overview terms). I came up like 1 % more dps when using 2t4+3t6 instead of 5t6 (helm and shoulders of t4). I figured i can't be that far off as i was always very close to other spreadsheets.
2t4 bonus is about 5.5 % damage increase, 4t6 is about 2.5 % damage increase. So Helm and Shoulders of T6 would have to yield a 3 % damage increase over their T4 counterparts - which i i'm pretty sure they don't.
Regarding the BT Exalted Trinket. I don't know how you came up with it being the best druid trinket - i wouldn't even consider it for a second.
I use Mangle once every cycle, which is about every 16-18 seconds. It's an average of 28 str at best. Sure, you do most of your shreds in the 8s window after mangle, however, rip and mangle itself should be totally unaffected.
Assuming you could have any gear set from all of SSC and TK what would you use for DPS? This is what I came up with...how would your setup differentiate?
I am a little torn on the trinket selection. There is many good options including [Bloodlust Brooch], and [Crystalforged Trinket]I am excluding DST because I refuse to take that from a rogue, warrior or enh shaman.
I am aware that there are better items available for the chest and hands but these two pieces give the four piece bonus which accounts for the difference.
That's more or less the exact dps gear setup I had about a month ago. I chose to drop the t4 set bonus in favour of 2 piece Nordrassil though (I went for legs and gloves) as I usually had mana to spare even when power-shifting profusely - there are many occasions where being able to spot heal without losing valuable dps time really pays off. I think you'll find that keeping 2 t4 (head and shoulders) while changing the rest to ~t5 (gloves, legs, maybe chest) will net pretty much the same AEP as keeping the 4 pc t4 bonus intact, only you gain instant regrowth and a bunch of stamina and AC to boot. Also you might be better off just gemming the boots and chest with living rubies.
For trinkets there's some discussion earlier in this thread if I remember right, the general consensus was that there's not much between bloodlust and crystalforged on paper (i think CFT came out ever-so-slightly ahead) but the ability to time BLB to cover 2 5cp rips makes it preferable.
To digress, I'm not sure if it's been mentioned already but I finally picked up an [Ashtongue Talisman of Equilibrium] a couple of days ago and it's occurred to me that sticking to the traditional dps cycle (mangle -> shred to 5cp -> wait for 80+ energy -> rip -> repeat) is probably no longer optimal. The trinket grants 140 strength for 8 seconds - this means that putting mangle at the start of the cycle will (40% of the time) increase the AP on, say, 3 shreds by 344 excluding BoK and UR. The alternative is moving mangle to the end of the cycle, so that rip gets the benefit of the extra AP. But this has disadvantages too - putting mangle at the end of the cycle would usually cause 1 tick of unbuffed rip, and also you'd still have to mangle after a shred crit on 3cp which means more chance of wasting a combo point. So I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on this. I remember seeing a WWS earlier in this thread of a druid @ teron that was running a shred -> mangle -> rip cycle and pulling off some fairly impressive numbers so I think that might be the way to go.
If we have to use the BT rep trinket, the rotation will probably look like this
Wait Until 80+ Energy
Mangle > Shred until 5 CP > Rip To be a Cycle
Inc very rough math (not refined =P)
Problem right here is that for the Rip to actually receive the benefit of the bonus from the Ashtongue to actually benefit the Rip, you need the rip to go off within 12 seconds after the mangle. 12 Seconds is 120 Energy Regeneration. Doing that cycle, assuming 40% crit on the mangle/shred, is going to require 3.6 Attacks on average (about 1.4 combo points per special). Average energy cost to complete a cycle is going to be (40 + 42 x 3) x 0.9 (4 attacks, times 0.9 is 3.6 attacks), which is about 150.
This means that while this cycle is doable, random streak will screw you over on the consistency part. Also it requires a very high crit rate for the sake to shorten energy requirement on cycles to proc the trinkets more often. If you have the mana to feed it, more frequent powershifting will help this cycle quite a bit.
Also, with 2 piece bonus of Tier 6 of reducing Mangle Energy Cost. Applying an extra mangle to reapply the buff to Rip, as well as having another chance to proc/refresh the Ashtongue buff, wont be as bad.
Is it good enough? I don't know, but from number perspective it seems doable, just a bit chancey.
Yes but the problem is that the trinket buff only lasts 8 seconds rather than 12 seconds, so keeping mangle at the start of the cycle isn't an option if rip is to get the benefit. Effectively what it comes down to is:
+140 strength on 3 shreds
or
(+140 strength on a 5cp rip and 2 shreds) - (30% of 1 rip tick + the dps loss from occasionally having to mangle at 5cp)
To clarify, the 30% of 1 rip tick comes from the fact that if you'd have to mangle directly before rip rather than directly after, meaning that mangle would expire before the last tick. Come to think of it, if shred crits @ 3 cp it would probably be better to adjust the next cycle and rip -> mangle -> shred to 4cp -> mangle -> rip.
Yes but the problem is that the trinket buff only lasts 8 seconds rather than 12 seconds, so keeping mangle at the start of the cycle isn't an option if rip is to get the benefit. Effectively what it comes down to is:
+140 strength on 3 shreds
or
(+140 strength on a 5cp rip and 2 shreds) - (30% of 1 rip tick + the dps loss from occasionally having to mangle at 5cp)
To clarify, the 30% of 1 rip tick comes from the fact that if you'd have to mangle directly before rip rather than directly after, meaning that mangle would expire before the last tick. Come to think of it, if shred crits @ 3 cp it would probably be better to adjust the next cycle and rip -> mangle -> shred to 4cp -> mangle -> rip.
Yeah, basically you'll need to crit so much that you can finish a cycle in 8 seconds and start another cycle that's likely different (so a 2-cycle cycle), or you just need to apply mangle more frequently.
Seriously though, they probably just got lazy with the itemizing. Shaman's Stormstrike trinket lasts 12 seconds if i recall correctly?
Sorry to go back to some earlier material. On one of the first few pages in the thread, there was talk about the swapping of idols, and how it makes you lose white attacks. I wanted to test it out myself, so I used a macro recorder program, that I would never, ever use for AV, to spam a trinket swap macro every 100ms. The result is that I completely stopped all auto attacks.
So yeah, most definitely not worth it to swap idols (i.e. idol of feral shadows)
08/23/07, 4:33 AM
, so I although I'm pretty sure I'll be making myself one, if I was about to start in BT I probably wouldn't. Does that help?!
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