If i get into that situation I'll normally use an extra shred rather than overwrite with a new rip. I have no idea which is mre efficient for DPS, but I might have a go at working it out later.

I'd love to see this, as I sorta do either depending on my mood, with no clue as to which is actually better for DPS. =P

@Tunah - Thanks for the info! Sounds like you're of the opinion that 8 Agi is still the way to go unless you get up to insane crit rates. The reason I asked the question primarily has to do with gem choices, and whether there is a crit level where 8 Str gems start to outstrip 8 Agi in total DPS gains.

I don't really have done the precise math, but I think the time left on a preexisting rip has a lot to do with actually dps gain/loss when compared to a shred. Most of the time we're not really concerned with DPS, but DPE (energy) since that's really the limit for us. When rip is refreshed, lets say, when it has 10 seconds left, and it ticks for 3600 total damage. The DPM for this will be 600(tick) x 14 (12 seconds from reapplying, and 2 seconds from the first tick) divided by 60 energy (the energy required for two ripes), that'll give you

Marginal DpE for reapplying rip when only 1 tick has gone off= 1 extra tick, which means you're trading 30 energy for 600dmg. in this case, 600/30 = 20 Dmg/E

Same case scenario, but lets look at a rip with 2 seconds left when reapplied

Marginal DpE in this case is 5 x 600 / 30 = 100 Dmg/E

The timing for using shred over reapplying a rip before time runs out is when the average Damage per energy for the shred to have better returns than the DPE of the marginal return of the rip, lets just say on average, the shred here does 2100 dmg on average, then the average DpE will be 2100/42 = 50 Dmg/E, which means that when there is less than 7 seconds left on the rip timer (realistcally 6, since rip ticks every 2 seconds.). 600 x 3 / 30 = 60. it'll be more efficient to reapply rip, if it has more than 7 second left, then it is more efficient to apply another shred for damage.

This is all really rough math work, so don't pummel me if the math is flawed or flat out wrong =P

I'm sure someone who has more time and/or better than me at math with variables can probably graph the best time for shred and rip depending on one's crit rate and attack power, but if one knows his average shred damage and rip damage, then he can work out a best time to reapply rip should there be a conflict for overlapping timer (again, that's assume my math is correct)

While this looks correct from a DPE standpoint, it doesnt take into account the fact that you "waste" a combo point (or two) by using Shred when at 5 combo points.

Well granted neither Rip nor Shred at 5 CP will give another combo point, but using Rip THEN Shred results in 1 or 2 combo points whereas using Shred then Rip results in none.

Another thing to think about in the scenario where Rip has say 2 seconds left to tick, if you Shred at that point, you are going to lose the opportunity to Rip for X seconds (X being the time it takes to regen enough energy to rip). If that's longer than the 2 seconds left on Rip, you will have a situation where you don't have Rip up, meaning less DPS, right?

I understand what you're trying to say here in terms of orders. So basically, we're looking at

Shred x X then rip

or

Shred x (X-1), rip, then shred again, X being the number we need to shred due to unnatural burst of energy regeneration, so the tradeoff will be 1.x combo points on average (depending on your crit rate) and the impact it has in terms of DPE for this combo cycle versus the DPE for the cycle for the other rotation.

Well the entire point of the exercise is that you need to spend your energy because you're at 100. If you're at <80 energy and Rip is still ticking and you're at 5 combo points, obviously you can afford to wait another tick.

There is, but you'll never hit it.
Using T4-level gear, the break even point is ~55% crit. This point will get higher as your AP gets higher, since AGI scales with AP but STR doesn't. Since AGI has AP, stacking AGI to gain 20% crit will give you more AP which will push the limit higher still. So unless you start putting critrating gems in your gear (a bad idea in any case), AGI > STR until like 60, 65% crit.

Well, that's a matter of perspective[1] You're going to have OOC no matter what, so it's not particularly useful to say "crit's just as good, it's OOC that's getting worse" - we care about the rate of change of DPS with respect to critrate, and this decreases as crits line up more frequently.
It's a more interesting argument with malorne bonus - assuming you've got high crit, the malorne bonus is less valuable and might be swapped out. Equally, assuming you've got malorne bonus, high crit is less valuable and might be swapped out.

And yeah, when you're actually playing, it's not terrible to sit at 5CP and shred again, nothing wrong with a free shred - it increases your DPS. It's at the gear evaluation level that you want to avoid this situation, because it means you're not getting as much mileage out of your crit chance as normal. First derivative positive, second derivative negative.

[1] Strictly, they're both true: DPS = f(x,y) where x = crit, y = ooc.
d^2f/dx^2 < 0, and d^2f/(dy dx) < 0, at the points we care about.

Hello everyone. I am new to these forums as you can tell, but have been following this topic for some time now as it has some great information pertaining to Cat DPS. While I understood much of the math that has been laid out I am still not sure about one thing.

A few pages back it was said that keeping 2 pieces of the Malorne Harness set was a fantastic idea... yet a few pages later it was mentioned that 4+ pieces of the Nordrassil Harness was better as the raw stats mixed with the predictability of Energy gain was more beneficial. (I might have read that wrong)

If losing the first bonus in the Malorn set is not a big deal would it be safe to assume that the Thunderheart Harness as a complete set is better for DPS than that of Nordrassil? Forgive me if I come off as a novice, but when you read things like the quotes below... it makes me wonder.

The two set bonus, not including haste effects, results in approximately 1 extra energy per second. Energy is generated at 10 energy per sec normally so this is a 10% increase in your energy generation. Since your yellow attacks are energy limited (not cooldown limited) this 10% increase in energy generation is worth almost a 10% increase in your overall yellow damage. Im not sure the exact way to model it, but Tunah's spreadsheet shows it as extremely good (better than 4 piece T6). Similarly looking at Lolaan's spreadsheet and modifying something things in it to get this ability working, shows pretty similar results.