Feral Druid DPS - Page 29

angral · 07/24/07, 11:52 AM

nickhexum: [Druid] Why is +hit good for DPS?

In a less flawed world druids would get a self buff finisher like that other energy using class that shall not be named. Failing that, my goal is to have enough crit that I am ready and waiting with 5 cp's for Rip to drop so that I can have continuous, rolling rips (while never wasting energy).

Unfortunately I am currently unable to find the gear in the game to give me 100% crit while eliminating dodges and misses. Nor is there enough haste gear available to rort OOC, Living Root and 2pcT4 for more than they're worth. (Speaking of which, how much of a letdown is the Living Root. WTB a druid class trinket that is more than a gimmick)

So in the mean time I steadily increase my AP and crit ratings, and take solace that my raid spot is not justified by my raw dps numbers.

Now, Bloodlust Brooch and Crusade Card: Both give 120ish AP on average. Head to head, I'd like to garner people's thoughts. I love how my Rip is macro'd to use the Brooch whenever it is up, almost ensuring that I get two Rips with the Broochs' buff. On trash pulls there is usually very little chance to use Rip, instead I find myself FB'ing and powershifting immediately afterwards. My gut is telling me that on trash mobs and the like where I can not get one Rip up, let alone two, but where I can keep the full buff stacked on myself for all my FB's the Card might be the winner.

Using the Card is safer. Ravage Mangle Shred all critting have seen me die at the start of trash pulls on numerous occassions, and popping the Brooch between the Ravage and the Mangle does not help matters.

Bloodlust Brooch can cooldown between packs, meaning that you have less dps downtime than the cooldown would lead you to believe, meaning that I could be barking up trees anyways.

Others thoughts and experiences?

Dalamar · 07/24/07, 12:30 PM

The extra rip damage that many of us will see occasionally is caused by having two different completely individual mangles affect one rip before the rip ticks once.

This is easiest to reproduce using a cast bar mod such as NECB -

Do your usual 5cp, wait for 80 energy, Rip then Mangle immediately.

As the Rip ticks off, you will need enough energy for another Rip + Mangle(usually requiring 2p tier 4 procs, an OOC proc or a lucky string of crits), as the Mangle buff timer counts down to about 1.2 seconds(accounting for my ping) put up a new Rip and Mangle immediately. The later you did the previous mangle before the first rip tick the better. You cannot allow the mangles to overlap and this will be extremely hard to do with other ferals on the same target.

With this method you can get about a 25% repro on a bonus 30% rip damage. All in all it is a very small dps increase but it is nice seeing the rare 800+ Rip ticks.

On a side note I wonder about the possibilities of coordinating Rips with a designated Mangle Bitch to allow for the bonus damage Rips.

Also this works in reverse, often if you are too quick or too slow you may experience a 400~ damage Rip that will not be affected by a fresh mangle. This happens all too often in raids with multiple Feral Druids. With another Feral in the group I have need a double stack of an inverted mangle once or twice before, 290~ ticks of a 5cp Rip make baby Jesus cry.

Valerian · 07/24/07, 1:59 PM

Originally Posted by angral

nickhexum: [

Now, Bloodlust Brooch and Crusade Card: Both give 120ish AP on average. Head to head, I'd like to garner people's thoughts. I love how my Rip is macro'd to use the Brooch whenever it is up, almost ensuring that I get two Rips with the Broochs' buff. On trash pulls there is usually very little chance to use Rip, instead I find myself FB'ing and powershifting immediately afterwards. My gut is telling me that on trash mobs and the like where I can not get one Rip up, let alone two, but where I can keep the full buff stacked on myself for all my FB's the Card might be the winner.

Using the Card is safer. Ravage Mangle Shred all critting have seen me die at the start of trash pulls on numerous occassions, and popping the Brooch between the Ravage and the Mangle does not help matters.

Bloodlust Brooch can cooldown between packs, meaning that you have less dps downtime than the cooldown would lead you to believe, meaning that I could be barking up trees anyways.

Others thoughts and experiences?

Bloodlust is generally better I believe since you can time the use to get the most out of it (this was mentionned in a thread on the previous page I believe). Also of note the Crystalforged Trinket is better than either of the other two you mentionned by a very slight amount.

Daenerys · 07/24/07, 2:14 PM

Originally Posted by Valerian

Bloodlust is generally better I believe since you can time the use to get the most out of it (this was mentionned in a thread on the previous page I believe). Also of note the Crystalforged Trinket is better than either of the other two you mentionned by a very slight amount.

I could use some serious upgrades in my trinket slots...how does the Crystalforged rate compared to other, (relatively) easily-attainable trinkets?

Valerian · 07/24/07, 2:22 PM

Originally Posted by Daenerys

I could use some serious upgrades in my trinket slots...how does the Crystalforged rate compared to other, (relatively) easily-attainable trinkets?

7 weapon damage and 216 AP for 10 sec every min

216/6 = 36 AP

7 weapon damage at roughly 12.5 AP per weapon damage = 87.5 AP

total =123.5 AP equivalent.

Bloodlust is 118 AP equivalent
Blessings card is very slightly below 120 AP equivalent (due to build up time).
Depending on your gear, hourglass is pretty close if not better as well despite having an approximately 45 sec internal cooldown.

• Vykromond · 07/24/07, 3:32 PM

Of course the AP equivalency figure for Bloodlust is not quite right because of the Rips issue. With the Brooch you can get a "tailing" Rip which will still receive the Bloodlust bonus even after your Bloodlust buff has faded, giving you 2 Bloodlust-powered Rips over a time period exceeding the duration of the trinket and thus giving you a "shadow" AP bonus past the 20 second period. Consequently, the Bloodlust is a little better than it seems and not strictly inferior to the Crystalforged as the 'pure numbers' would indicate.

Valerian · 07/24/07, 3:42 PM

Originally Posted by Vykromond

Of course the AP equivalency figure for Bloodlust is not quite right because of the Rips issue. With the Brooch you can get a "tailing" Rip which will still receive the Bloodlust bonus even after your Bloodlust buff has faded, giving you 2 Bloodlust-powered Rips over a time period exceeding the duration of the trinket and thus giving you a "shadow" AP bonus past the 20 second period. Consequently, the Bloodlust is a little better than it seems and not strictly inferior to the Crystalforged as the 'pure numbers' would indicate.

True its value will be somewhat over 118 AP due to timing issues since you can only get one rip out of the Crystalforged.

I have been using Crystalforged and Bloodlust recently since I had found that the Hourglass is worse, but upon getting new gear it seems that the hourglass has spiked back up in value again to be higher than both Crystalforged and Bloodlust in my case. Im unsure which of the two, Crystalforged or Bloodlust, I should replace with the hourglass, but I am leaning towards keeping the Crystalforged due to the slightly stronger passive bonus (since every now and then the trinket gets used and immediately Im needed to shift to heal/res/innervate etc)

suicuique · 07/25/07, 5:19 AM

Originally Posted by Boevis

You just proved that Str scales with Crit, not that it scales with AP.

Sorry, that was just a brainfart of mine.
I wanted to prove that STR does scale (in regard to the "opposite" stat: that would be AGI=Crit here), though in a limited fashion.

Obviously STR and AP are in a constant relationship ^^

Hobbes · 07/25/07, 8:15 AM

Originally Posted by Valerian

I think it requires testing. On the Rogue spreadsheet thread, parses allowed them to more or less conclude that weapon skill gave 0.1% to hit and that was all.

That said from the conclusions reached in that thread, it seems that there is either confusion in how hit actually works or that there are two different models for +hit for dual wielders and non-dual wielders:

Dual wield: 5% (base) + 19% (dual wield penalty) + (Mob Defense - Char Weapon skill)*0.1 = 25.5% miss chance vs a 73 mob. This is the agreed upon number for the dual wielding miss chance.

Non-dual wield: Here it gets a bit iffy. The number is almost universally agreed to be 8.6% but its unclear how that is reached. Some theories:

5% (base) + 1%* (Mob level - Char level) + 0.04* (Mob Defense - Char Weapon Skill) = 8.6% for a 73 mob.

5% (base) + 0.2*(Mob Defense - Char Weapon Skill) = 8%. This is the theory using the wowwiki numbers, as quoted above. Now if the 0.2% per point when the Defense 10 or more above Weapon skill, is a penalty, the standard 0.04*(Mob Defense - Char Weapon Skill) gives the extra 0.6% needed to hit the 8.6% Standard.

These two theories, for 73 mobs result in the same thing and we can see they are analogous as well. There is the base miss chance, the 0.04*(Mob Defense - Char Weapon Skill) and a factor that takes the mobs Level into account (one case directly, the other indirectly through a penalty based on Weapon Skill).

To determine which would be correct, the solution, I believe, would be to test them on a level 72 Mob. Against a 72 Mob, the first theory gives:

5% (base) + 1%*2 +0.04*(10) = 7.4%

Whereas the second theory gives:

5% (base) + 0.1*(10) + 0.04*(10) = 6.4%

Technically a test with anywhere between 6.5% hit and 7.3% hit (and no weapon skill) against a 72 mob should allow verification of this theory. Any misses mean that the first theory is correct, whereas no misses at all mean that it would be the second. Granted it could also mean its another, third theory we dont know about, but it would at least let us determine which of these other two can be ignored.

I did this test. I unequipped my Clefthoof Hide Leggings, and was not using Earthwarden or the Shapeshifter's Signet, so I had +0 feral combat skill. Using +hit gems and some old Moonglade gear, I brought myself to exactly 103 hit rating. Then I went to Blade's Edge Plateau and cherry-picked the L72 Apexis Flayers, recording the combat log. I scored 402 consecutive hits with no misses.

If Theory 1 holds, my expected miss rate would be 7.4% excluding gear.

103 hit rating gives me +6.53%, so my expected miss rate should have been 0.87%.

Thus my expected hit rate should have been 100-0.87% = 99.13%.

The chances of scoring 402 consecutive hits with a 99.13% hit rate is .9913^402 = .0298. Rather unlikely.

Therefore the evidence points to Theory 2 as the correct one.

dukes · 07/25/07, 9:09 AM

In slightly more direct terms, if you're using more than 6.5% hit against anything but raid bosses, you're using too much. I'm finally getting around to swapping the 12 stam on my Treads to 12 agility (hopefully someone who I know who can do it will be around tonight) to bring my hit lower (currently using the crafted LW boots from SSC plans).

nickhexum01 · 07/25/07, 9:34 AM

Still wondering if there are any number gurus around to confirm the numbers I posted for feral DPS stats

str ~ 2.47 edit: had my number off
agi ~ 2.4
hit ~ 1.1
crit ~ 1.5
feral weapon skill = 0.85 assuming that website is somewhere close to correct

Someone posted earlier that Agi is actually better for DPS. I'd like an explanation why if that is the case.

Crowbite · 07/25/07, 9:50 AM

Originally Posted by nickhexum01

Still wondering if there are any number gurus around to confirm the numbers I posted for feral DPS stats

str ~ 2.47 edit: had my number off
agi ~ 2.4
hit ~ 1.1
crit ~ 1.5
feral weapon skill = 0.85 assuming that website is somewhere close to correct

Someone posted earlier that Agi is actually better for DPS. I'd like an explanation why if that is the case.

Because agi gives you crit which generates CP growth faster. The higher your crit, the less chance a cycle will last longer then 12 seconds. More cycles = higher dps.

dukes · 07/25/07, 10:28 AM

Originally Posted by nickhexum01

Still wondering if there are any number gurus around to confirm the numbers I posted for feral DPS stats

str ~ 2.47 edit: had my number off
agi ~ 2.4
hit ~ 1.1
crit ~ 1.5
feral weapon skill = 0.85 assuming that website is somewhere close to correct

Someone posted earlier that Agi is actually better for DPS. I'd like an explanation why if that is the case.

Check the thread Angral pointed you to ([Druid] Why is +hit good for DPS?)

Tunah posted values of:

Haste = 1.41
STR = 2.60 (I'm using 5% 'half kings')
AGI = 2.83
AP = 1.00
Hit = 1.93 (obviously becomes worthless once you hit 8.6% +hit)
Crit = 1.81

Crit/Agi is more valuable than it may seem because of the multipliers (3% crit bonus metagem, Primal Instinct talent) and the effect on combo point generation, as Tytal said. Haste scales from anywhere between 1.3 AEP (not having OoC, not having 2t4, only 30% white damage which is very low) to around 1.7 AEP (both OoC and 2t4, something like 40% white damage).

Valerian · 07/25/07, 10:29 AM

Originally Posted by nickhexum01

Still wondering if there are any number gurus around to confirm the numbers I posted for feral DPS stats

str ~ 2.47 edit: had my number off
agi ~ 2.4
hit ~ 1.1
crit ~ 1.5
feral weapon skill = 0.85 assuming that website is somewhere close to correct

Someone posted earlier that Agi is actually better for DPS. I'd like an explanation why if that is the case.

These dont look similar to the numbers Im getting at all. In my current gear (around 3k AP, 35% crit) mine look like (using Tunah's spreadsheet)

Str = 2.46
Agi = 2.75
Hit = 1.84
Crit = 1.89
FCS = 3.16
Haste = 1.54
Wdmg = 12.11

Im unsure if the FCS is using the theory from wowwiki where the first 5 is more valuable than the rest or how in fact its modeled. Weapon skill always seems to be a sticking point in any theorycraft discussion due to no concrete knowledge on what it does exactly.

Fuoco · 07/25/07, 10:30 AM

Read here a long time, first time posting. This site has fueled a lot of theorycrafting on my part ^^

Anyway, I was thinking this morning about how ridiculously useful Malorne 2 pc is, and how nice it would be to be able to use off set or 4-5 t6 pieces when we get there. After doing my own calculations on it, I see there's no reason I should ever get rid of Malorne (I'm planning on keeping hat/gloves right now) as long as 60% of my dps is yellow.

Maybe we should revisit that stat we forgot about, Haste Rating. With enough haste, relatively less of our dps will be yellow and we could use more high-stat pieces in good conscience. Has anyone considered this?