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10/04/07, 11:42 AM
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#1026
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Don Flamenco
Night Elf Druid
Proudmoore
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Are we going with an ultimate list? If it were up to me, here's my list:
In terms of 2p4 vs 4p6, im going with a 4p6 setup because it is much more consistent than. T4 being 1% better than T6 assumes no powershifting, which means energy loss due to instability of "Bloodlust Procs" through powershifting is ignored.
Helm: [Cursed Vision of Sargeras]: 21 hit + 5 hit gem= 26 hit
Neck: [Choker of Endless Nightmares]: 21 hit
Shoulders: [Thunderheart Pauldrons]
Chest: [Thunderheart Chestguard]: 5hit gem: 5 hit
Back: [Razor-Scale Battlecloak]
Bracers: [Insidious Bands] : 12 hit + 5 hit gem= 17 Hit
Gloves: [Thunderheart Gauntlets]
Belt: [Don Alejandro's Money Belt]: 5 hit gem= 5 hit
Leggings: [Thunderheart Leggings]: 27 hit
Boots: [Shadowmaster's Boots]: 5 hit gem= 5 hit
Ring: [Band of the Eternal Champion]
Ring: [Ring of Deceitful Intent] : 19 hit
Trinket: [Dragonspine Trophy]
Trinket: [Tsunami Talisman]: 10 hit
Weapon: [Merciless Gladiator's Maul] : 18 hit
Idol: [Everbloom Idol]
From that setup, you get 153 hit rating. I used 5 yellow gems total for socket bonus matching on certain items. With the requirement of 2 yellow slots for Relentless Earthstorm Diamond, that leaves 3 yellow slots that could've been filled with 10 agility gems, meaning 15 agility "loss", ignoring the socket bonus. that translates into 43.8 AEP loss with full kings, which Ring of Deceitful Intent easily covers when compared with Shapeshifter's Signet. If I remember correctly, 153 yields more than 9% hit (138 yields 9% i think), which means you can go further and cut 1 yellow gem and still retain max hit. I'd be glad to debate about this though
Edit: Also forgot about 16 hit rating available for helm. This can either be changed into the Lower City's Glyph, or changing more socket choices. Also ignored Tsunami's 10hit by accident.
this just means that its more than easy to achieve 9% hit in endgame gear without even trying to get hit. So shapeshifter's really isn't that necessary at this point
Last edited by david0925 : 10/04/07 at 12:30 PM.
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10/04/07, 12:01 PM
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#1027
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Von Kaiser
Night Elf Druid
Arthas (EU)
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Well the reason I posted about a new set to be made, was to look at it as whole.
As for the 20 points in feral skill combat rating:
WoWWiki states that the first 5 points increase of any weapon skill lower the chance to miss by 3% against level 73 bosses, the next 5 points would only lower that chance by .5%.
The conclusion:
You get a big load of utility out of these first 5 points. If 142 hit rating is the maximum you want, 20 FSCR reduces the maximum needed to 95. That frees up 47 hit rating needed, which can be used for anything else (lets say 47 agility).
At least that's the way I understand it.
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10/04/07, 12:05 PM
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#1028
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Don Flamenco
Night Elf Druid
Proudmoore
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Originally Posted by Yaelle
Well the reason I posted about a new set to be made, was to look at it as whole.
As for the 20 points in feral skill combat rating:
WoWWiki states that the first 5 points increase of any weapon skill lower the chance to miss by 3% against level 73 bosses, the next 5 points would only lower that chance by .5%.
The conclusion:
You get a big load of utility out of these first 5 points. If 142 hit rating is the maximum you want, 20 FSCR reduces the maximum needed to 95. That frees up 47 hit rating needed, which can be used for anything else (lets say 47 agility).
At least that's the way I understand it.
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correct, but keep in mind that
-you need 2 yellow gems to use RED metagem, which means you will get 10 extra hit rating through socketing regardless
-you can't convert hit on items to other stats. All I did was following a natural progression of gear, not actively seeking hit
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10/04/07, 12:09 PM
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#1029
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Von Kaiser
Night Elf Druid
Elune (EU)
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If some experts around here can answer to me, it will be helpfull thanks =)
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10/04/07, 12:22 PM
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#1030
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Don Flamenco
Night Elf Druid
Proudmoore
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Originally Posted by Yilfin
If some experts around here can answer to me, it will be helpfull thanks =)
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For Skulkers, use 2 Agi gems and A.4agi/sta gem if you don't have the RED meta socket blue requirement fulfilled. B. another 8 agi gem if you do have the 2 blue slots covered. Use 40ap/10 crit rating leg armor (or 50ap/12 crit rating if you wish to invest more money)
the Edgewalker are better than Zierhuts pure dps wise unless you're hit capped already. Socket it with 8 agi and 4agi/4hit gem
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10/04/07, 12:26 PM
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#1031
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Von Kaiser
Night Elf Druid
Elune (EU)
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Currently i don't have a red meta gem as i use the t4 helm for both tanking and dps, and i have the +18 stamine meta gem in it ^^
So you think that the 50ap/12crit rating is better, even if i loose 400 health in cat form ?
Thanks for your answer =)
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10/04/07, 12:29 PM
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#1032
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Don Flamenco
Night Elf Druid
Proudmoore
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Originally Posted by Yilfin
Currently i don't have a red meta gem as i use the t4 helm for both tanking and dps, and i have the +18 stamine meta gem in it ^^
So you think that the 50ap/12crit rating is better, even if i loose 400 health in cat form ?
Thanks for your answer =)
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you already have Forestwalker's for tanking right? There's not a big need for hybridizing something that's clearly designed for dps (this is actually rogue pants, we just receive equal/greater benefit from it)
so in short. Its better to get the ap/crit enchant
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10/04/07, 12:32 PM
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#1033
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King Hippo
Night Elf Druid
Blackhand
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Originally Posted by Yilfin
Currently i don't have a red meta gem as i use the t4 helm for both tanking and dps, and i have the +18 stamine meta gem in it ^^
So you think that the 50ap/12crit rating is better, even if i loose 400 health in cat form ?
Thanks for your answer =)
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400 health in cat form will rarely increase your DPS. As long as your raid healing isnt slacking and you're not afraid to use pots/healthstones as needed you should be fine.
David0925:
For max optimization you can remove 2 of your 5 agi/hit gems. Looking at the best socket bonuses it would appear the chest and shoulders would be the best to throw your yellow/blue gems in for the RED metagem. The 1 extra yellow gem should probably go into the bracers since they have the next best set bonus (that can be filled with a yellow).
Last edited by Valerian : 10/04/07 at 12:40 PM.
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10/04/07, 12:34 PM
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#1034
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Von Kaiser
Night Elf Druid
Arthas (EU)
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Originally Posted by Yilfin
2700 ap, and 33,4% critics.
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According to the "Critical Strike Chance vs Attack Power" theory you are well on the side, where agility is more useful than strength, so these trousers would do best with 3 agility gems, I think.
Originally Posted by Yilfin
should i add to these legs the +50pa one (which is 25 strength without our talents increase), or the +40 stamina one (that add also 12 agi which is important in cat form) ? If i use these pants without the 40 stamina leg armor, i lost 700 health in cat form (9100 self-buff), compare to the forestwalker kilt, that is huge.
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You will have to decide, if you're comfortable with the health loss or not. For pure damage, the 50ap enchant is the better choice.
Originally Posted by Yilfin
Otherwise, my hit rating will go from 75 to 100, without the shapeshifter signet that i'll buy soon. Is it worth it to change my zierhut's lost treads for the Edgewalker Longboots, as it seems that i'll lost some raw power, but gain some hit that i'll not need ? If it's the case, what gems should i put in these boots ?
I'm a little bit lost, so thank you for your advises =)
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With the Shapeshifter's Signet you'll reach the hit cap, still I think they are better.
Gems would be the same (2x8 agility)
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10/04/07, 12:39 PM
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#1035
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Von Kaiser
Night Elf Druid
Elune (EU)
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Ok so go for the 50ap leg armor, thanks for your advises =)
Otherwise, i'll wait before socket the edgewalker longboots as i'll reach the hitcap (100 hit rating and 20 fcs), and maybe i'll spend money for two gems and an enchant for these boots for nothing.
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10/04/07, 12:53 PM
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#1036
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Don Flamenco
Night Elf Druid
Proudmoore
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Originally Posted by Valerian
400 health in cat form will rarely increase your DPS. As long as your raid healing isnt slacking and you're not afraid to use pots/healthstones as needed you should be fine.
David0925:
For max optimization you can remove 2 of your 5 agi/hit gems. Looking at the best socket bonuses it would appear the chest and shoulders would be the best to throw your yellow/blue gems in for the RED metagem. The 1 extra yellow gem should probably go into the bracers since they have the next best set bonus (that can be filled with a yellow).
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yep, i have that covered in that little paragraph under =)
The sake of the argument is that even stacking agi gem and avoiding actively seeking hit gear (Deceitful Intent and Choker are arguable) you'll come out well above the hit cap for current end game gear, which makes the Shapeshifter not as big of a deal as a lot of people make it out to be, especially if you exceed 6% hit (which is easily doable with natural selection of gear) the contribution of FCS from SS diminishes
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10/04/07, 1:11 PM
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#1037
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King Hippo
Night Elf Druid
Blackhand
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Originally Posted by david0925
yep, i have that covered in that little paragraph under =)
The sake of the argument is that even stacking agi gem and avoiding actively seeking hit gear (Deceitful Intent and Choker are arguable) you'll come out well above the hit cap for current end game gear, which makes the Shapeshifter not as big of a deal as a lot of people make it out to be, especially if you exceed 6% hit (which is easily doable with natural selection of gear) the contribution of FCS from SS diminishes
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I missed your edit in the post :P And your point is well taken. Further if Imp FF is ever moved into the feral tree its going to be even easier to blow right past the hit cap without needing any extra hit gear etc.
I was looking into calculating the most efficient set of gear for a fight where you had an oomkin with Imp FF but it was taking too much time to optimize and was generally just annoying. Still as gear gets more and more hit rating on it, knowing which pieces to use and which to substitute out does become more tricky.
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10/04/07, 1:33 PM
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#1038
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Don Flamenco
Tauren Druid
Gul'dan (EU)
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Regarding the endgame gear discussion:
I'm currently working on a little program which will calculate the dps of a set and try out all possible combinations of items (given what i feed the program) and spit out the ones which are best and also which cycle to use them with (4cp or 5cp). I'll let you know when it's finished.
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10/04/07, 2:21 PM
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#1039
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...
Goblin Death Knight
Cho'gall
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Originally Posted by david0925
Are we going with an ultimate list? If it were up to me, here's my list:
In terms of 2p4 vs 4p6, im going with a 4p6 setup because it is much more consistent than. T4 being 1% better than T6 assumes no powershifting, which means energy loss due to instability of "Bloodlust Procs" through powershifting is ignored.
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With the recent changes to Powershifting I've been testing my DPS without it and have found that thusfar, in most situations, I have not lost substantial DPS. However, seeing as though I don't see myself Powershifting in any sustained manner, I can't see the 4T6 surpassing the 2T4 within current mechanics/itemization. I'd very much like 4T6 to be the 'best' possible, but I don't see myself using it unless Powershifting is reverted or the mysterious 'no gcd for shifts' is implemented.
Also, with regards to Bloodlust resetting Energy ticks, I can't say I've witnessed this whatsoever. If this were the case when combined with not powershifting I'm relatively certain I'd see a much more substantial drop in DPS. My testing thusfar has utilized as much as possible similar gear and party makeup when compared to pre-patch powershifting.
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10/04/07, 3:00 PM
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#1040
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Bald Bull
Tauren Druid
Lightbringer
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Originally Posted by david0925
yep, i have that covered in that little paragraph under =)
The sake of the argument is that even stacking agi gem and avoiding actively seeking hit gear (Deceitful Intent and Choker are arguable) you'll come out well above the hit cap for current end game gear, which makes the Shapeshifter not as big of a deal as a lot of people make it out to be, especially if you exceed 6% hit (which is easily doable with natural selection of gear) the contribution of FCS from SS diminishes
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Part of the reason why I really want catform to count as DW. Hit is going to be out there because of the 3 other DW classes, and hos quickly we cap it means our itemization kinda sucks (essentially only 3 stats help us). DW would also help with haste and crit rating (they'd likely nerf our crit from Agi if we had DW)
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10/04/07, 3:41 PM
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#1041
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Don Flamenco
Night Elf Druid
Proudmoore
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Originally Posted by Windchilla
With the recent changes to Powershifting I've been testing my DPS without it and have found that thusfar, in most situations, I have not lost substantial DPS. However, seeing as though I don't see myself Powershifting in any sustained manner, I can't see the 4T6 surpassing the 2T4 within current mechanics/itemization. I'd very much like 4T6 to be the 'best' possible, but I don't see myself using it unless Powershifting is reverted or the mysterious 'no gcd for shifts' is implemented.
Also, with regards to Bloodlust resetting Energy ticks, I can't say I've witnessed this whatsoever. If this were the case when combined with not powershifting I'm relatively certain I'd see a much more substantial drop in DPS. My testing thusfar has utilized as much as possible similar gear and party makeup when compared to pre-patch powershifting.
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I'm not talking about bloodlust ticks resetting energy ticks. Rather, I'm talking about the human error that happens with powershifting that effectively waste the bloodlust tick when you shapeshift as soon as a tick happens. Also, there are waste ticks when it ticks 2-3 times in a row while you're waiting for 81 energy for rip+ mangle. Both cases are rare, but they do happen.
In that manner, -assuming power shifting is used liberally-, no unpredictable energy ticks will yield best results, hence my arguement that 4T6 is better in that perspective. We have also have a couple of people that noticed dps boost after switching to 4 piece t6 just because it elminates the randomess of their cycle through extra energy ticks, making powershifitng much easier to perform, and thus, they can perform it much more liberally
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10/04/07, 3:56 PM
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#1042
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Don Flamenco
Tauren Druid
Gul'dan (EU)
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Well as far as i can tell, 2t4 still surpasses 4t6. I do powershift quite frequently and i must say i lose more energy due to dodges/misses/parries and energy refund than to bloodlust ticks. Out of maybe 15 bloodlust ticks, i waste maybe one.
Also, as you approach or even surpass 50% Crit (especially with 2t4) i end up with an average cycle length of 13-15 seconds. That means i practically never save up more than maybe 60 energy. So the possibility of wasting a tick there is also minimal.
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10/04/07, 7:16 PM
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#1043
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Goblin Death Knight
Cho'gall
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I just don't find myself ever wasting Bloodlust procs outside of loss via Powershifting, which I'm doing much more minimally if at all. The massive nerf to the way Furor works in Powershifting cemented 2T4, as there is no element of 'randomness' involved, you simply manage your energy properly and avoid situations where you're somehow getting excess energy built.
Powershifting in itself is a tactic that most leaves one open to so-called 'unpredictable results' as various factors including ones not related to user error (server lag, frame lag) can have potentially random and detrimental effects on your DPS cycle. Don't get me wrong, I loved Powershifting as it was pre-patch, it added an interesting dimension beyond the otherwise boring DPS cycle of min/max WoW dps. However, with the recent change and all the potential negative factors associated with it, I just don't see very much of an upside in still utilizing it in any significant manner.
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10/04/07, 8:31 PM
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#1044
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King Hippo
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The damage lost on 2t4 procs is pretty easy to understand, once you know your own reaction time.
Say I average 4 (mangle, shred, shred, rip) moves per cycle and 16 seconds per cycle of autoattack. So I attack a total of 20 times (16 autoattacks). My reaction time (with lag contribution) is 2 seconds, which means if I get a bloodlust proc I'll miss it, and I use 3 attacks (2 autoattacks and my last shred) in the 2 seconds before I shift. This gives me a 3/20 chance of missing bloodlust, or 15%. Cut my reaction time down to 1 second, and it'll be 2/20.
The formula is generally, then:
(1 + r) / (m + c)
Where r is reaction time, m is miss chance, c is cycle time.
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10/05/07, 1:10 AM
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#1045
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Goblin Death Knight
Cho'gall
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And if you're not powershifting, you're missing 0/20, which was my point.
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10/05/07, 3:18 AM
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#1046
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Don Flamenco
Night Elf Druid
Proudmoore
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Originally Posted by Windchilla
And if you're not powershifting, you're missing 0/20, which was my point.
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You're still gaining 40 energy, minus how much energy that has elapsed ( due to new energy tick model). It certainly doesn't give as much return as before, but it still gives net return.
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10/05/07, 5:38 AM
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#1047
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Dukes
Tauren Druid
No WoW Account (EU)
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Originally Posted by dukes
The basic premise is that you shift out and in when you're low on energy (<10 for decent gains). Furor will give you 40 energy straight up, so you end up gaining around 30-40 energy dependant on what you started with. It always used to work like this, with a "perfect" energy gain as long as you shifted in between energy ticks, making the maximum of 40 energy gained very easy to do.
Over the course of two minutes or so, you could easily get around 180 energy (5 shifts worth, minus a few per shift for "imperfect" shifts) if you were paying attention. 180/42 = 4 extra shreds (168) with a bit left over for dodges/etc. 4 shreds at around 1500 damage each = 6000 extra damage without crits, or ~13000 damage with (50-100 DPS or so), plus 4-8 combo points (probably another 30-40 dps on it's own).
The system has changed slightly to reset the energy tick to when you shift back into form (i.e. it's now an individual energy tick instead of a global one). This means you have to be quick on shifting form, or else you'll waste some more energy than before. Depending on how good you are at timing it and how much energy you started with, you should gain anywhere between 20 and 35 energy or so. Lag inherent to the game along with reaction time makes it vitually impossible to be gaining the "maximum" 40 energy that you might have in the previous system. On average I estimate the gain to be around 25 per shift (assuming normal amounts of lag = loss of 10 energy, plus 5 energy wasted on average from before the shift), instead of the previous 35. It's a pretty big change, but it's still worth doing if you do it right.
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That's from about 40 posts ago or so. Even if you do lose the 2t4 proc, you still break even at worst, and gain 15 energy or so at best.
After having been powershifting a lot yesterday and watching the effects, I'm not entirely convinced that it completely resets the energy tick every time you do it, and I'd be more willing to make it a range of 20-45 energy gained rather than 20-35. There's still definitely a net gain (or at least, no net loss) there regardless of whether you get a 2t4 proc or not.
And so we get back to 4t6>2t4. Which is exactly what I experienced when I got 4t6 and noticed a good 50-100DPS upgrade from WWS. Unfortunately it's very hard to compare parses due to variability of how many warlocks we have in the raid (changes if we have CoR or not) and whether I'm in the melee group or not, how many bloodlusts the melee group/group I'm in gets, how much the attempt screws up (death and decays, cripples, shadow of deaths, adds running loose in the raid, etc) and other factors that will always change per fight (actual crit rate, for example). As a general trend, my DPS has definitely gone up, which is partly due to the knowledge that when I powershift I can do it when I'm ready to do it, and not do it and fear "wasting" 20 energy from a 2t4 proc. The stat upgrade on using 2 more pieces of t6 over t4 is also pretty significant.
It should also be a lot easier to time powershifts well and not waste any time/energy through them once the cancelform command comes in 2.3.
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10/05/07, 7:36 AM
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#1049
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Glass Joe
Night Elf Druid
Magtheridon (EU)
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May i ask what kind of latency and fps is needed to keep these new powershifts up?
Im often playing in a latency span between 110-180ms and an FPS at 15-20(in bossfights or where much is happening) and i tend to find it pretty difficult to time the shifts for the gain :/.
Also when 2.3 comes it seems that powershifting will be even better since you will not have to wait for the server to respond.
Last edited by ThatSammyBoy : 10/05/07 at 7:49 AM.
Reason: saw the answear to 2.3 in dukes post..
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10/05/07, 9:34 AM
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#1050
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Driving Instructor
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Tublade you meant T5 pants right?
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