Feral Druid DPS - Page 48

Malazaar · 09/09/07, 6:38 PM

This seems correct to me, however it would mean the +2 wpndmg are worth about 24 AP. +4 stats adds 4 strength = 8*1.2(HotW)*1.03(SotF)*1.1(BoK)*1.1(Shaman) = 11.96 AP and also 4 agility = 4*1.03(SotF)*1.1(BoK)*1.1(Shaman) = 4.99 AP and 4*1.03 (SotF)*1.1(BoK)/25(Agi/Critmod) = 0.18 % Crit.

So it's 16.95 AP + 0.18 % Crit vs 24 AP. 0.28 % Crit is worth about 7.97 AP with my stats thats 24.92 ap (4 stats) vs 24 ap (2 wpndmg) for me.

Voldin · 09/09/07, 7:17 PM

You're more than welcome to double check my math on the feral DPS modeling. I'm fairly well convinced that it is roughly correct, but I'd always like to encourage feedback from the community at large.

I suspect the differences between the weapon damage and the +stats come from the fact that weapon damage doesn't effect Rip, and the extra agility increases crit% in addition to AP (and also generates extra combo points).

Just my $.02

Boevis · 09/09/07, 10:04 PM

Crit isn't worth that much.

I hate posting such a blanket statement, but it's just not

Voldin · 09/09/07, 10:44 PM

With my personal stats (3100 AP and 35.88% crit raid buffed) assuming a 4-5 CP Rip cycle, my damage breakdown is as follows.

Melee DPS 300.63
Shred DPS 290.13
Rip DPS 316.76
Mangle DPS 76.28
Total DPS 991.27

including +2 weapon damage to a ring increases my damage breakdown to

Melee DPS 302.75
Shred DPS 291.28
Rip DPS 316.76
Mangle DPS 76.59
Total DPS 994.86

Using the +4 to all stats, my damage would look like this

Melee DPS 302.35
Shred DPS 291.06
Rip DPS 317.64
Mangle DPS 76.65
Total DPS 995.19

The high multiplier on shred increases the effect of +2 weapon damage to make it higher damage than the +4 stats, but the increased effect on Rip and Mangle because of the higher AP and crit rate outweigh the +2 damage and all the associated multipliers.

This factors in the extra Crit damage from Predatory Instincts, and the Relentless Earthstorm Diamond. If you weren't using those two particular bonuses, you may see different results.

If you'd like to provide some #'s to backup your claim that "crit isn't worth that much" I would love to see them.

Maybe I'm the only one who uses variable Combo Point DPS cycles, (comes from playing a mutilate rogue I suppose) but my average 4-5 CP cycles are about 13.5 seconds factoring in the OOC procs and the 2pc T4 proc effects. This allows me to have roughly 90% Rip uptime. That could be why I'm seeing a larger impact from raw AP than weapon damage.

Either way we're talking about a fairly negligible difference, although the better the gear gets, the more that gap would widen I expect.

Tuhalu · 09/10/07, 6:21 AM

Originally Posted by Boevis

(I seriously doubt anyone is stacking Str to the point where 1 agi > 3 ap)

You don't have to stack Str to have high AP. Raid buffs and tier gear does most of it for you. In my current gear I have 2846 AP with MotW (non-talented) and my Darkmoon Card: Crusade trinket buff fully stacked. With full raid buffs (talented MotW, Battle Shout, Blessing of Might, Blessing of Kings, Strength of Earth Totem, Major Agility Elixir and 20 Agi Food) that increases by ~1100 AP (that is, nearly 4000AP). Procs from trinkets or Unleashed Rage add an extra couple hundred AP on average over the duration of a fight, so lets call that ~4200AP. In the example above, I included base weapon damage as about 700AP for a total of 4900AP, but really 4000AP on your character sheet during a raid is what I'm talking about. My current gear is a horrible mish-mash of rogue gear and actual real feral gear, with 5 pieces at T6 quality, 3 at T4 quality and the other 6 pieces at Heroic quality or lower. My shoulders aren't even gemmed and enchanted for dps. God forbid we ever see some real feral itemisation so I can actually put a lot of Str on my gear. But having lots of AP is not something that is hard to do in a raid environment.

anathor · 09/10/07, 6:30 AM

Originally Posted by Tuhalu

In the example above, I included base weapon damage as about 700AP for a total of 4900AP, but really 4000AP on your character sheet during a raid is what I'm talking about.

Sorry but, I'm confused. What does base weapon damage have to do with anything?

(and by the way Predatory Instincts gives you 20% more damage on a crit, not 10%)

Malazaar · 09/10/07, 6:35 AM

Originally Posted by Boevis

Crit isn't worth that much.

I hate posting such a blanket statement, but it's just not

Ok, one thing to be said beforehand - i'm completely ignoring the fact that more crit means more cp (which is ultimatively worth some damage) - so in reality, crit is worth even more.

I'm calculating on a basis of 4200 AP, 43 % crit and 2400 mobarmor (debuffed of course - it's 18.52 % absorb).

My average cycle is 16 seconds and it contains a mangle, 3 shreds and a rip (it's average).

So that makes my damagebreakdown the following:
Autoattack: 467.36 DPS
Shred: 402.06 DPS
Mangle: 85.51 DPS
Rip: 228.98 DPS
Total: 1183.91 DPS

Now ... if i add one percent crit to each attack i get the following (i'm using 2.23x as critmultiplier - talent and metagem). I also factor in glancing blows on autohits fyi.

Autoattack: 471.28 DPS
Shred: 405.30 DPS
Mangle: 86.19 DPS
Rip: 228.98 DPS
Total: 1191.74 DPS

That is an increase of 7.83 DPS per crit or 1.41 for 0.18% crit.

Now, we need to see for comparison what attackpower does - adding one attackpower does the following:

Autoattack: 467.46 DPS
Shred: 402.12 DPS
Mangle: 85.52 DPS
Rip: 229.00 DPS
Total: 1184.09 DPS

So i gain 0.18 DPS per attackpower - that's 7.83 AP for 0.18 crit (i have a slightly other value here because of rounding issues).

So if you want to point my error (i'm always glad to find errors) i use the following equations (P = Attackpower, C = Critchance, A = armorabsorb of the target, L = Cyclelength, S = Shreds per Cycle):
Autoattack DPS: (55+P/14)*1.1*(0.2*0.7(glancing blows)+(0.8-C)+2.23*C)*A
Shred DPS: ((55+P/14)*2.25+405)*1.1*1.3*S/L*(1+1.23*C)*A
Mangle DPS: ((55+P/14)*1.6+264)*1.1*1.2/L*(1+1.23*C)*A
Rip DPS: (1554+P*0.24)*1.3*1.1/L
Total DPS: Sum up the above

Edit: Got my AP/Crit stats at the top wrong, updated.

dukes · 09/10/07, 6:35 AM

With the solarian trinket and improved talent, BS is ~450 AP.

With improved Might, BoM is ~265AP

With improved totems, SoE is ~245 AP

With improved MoTW, MoTW is ~65 AP

Those are all static buffs, giving ~1k AP total.

I'm pretty sure that (if I go about it right) I'll be able to get a screenshot of over 6.2k AP in hyjal on wednesday. Currently the highest I've recorded is 5643 AP, although to get stupid numbers requires non-optimal gear/pot use (ashtongue trinket/mangle idol/pillar/flask of relentless assault) and I still need to get some insane strength pots (which are about 330 AP extra fully raid buffed).

Getting stupid amounts of AP is what feral druids are meant to do, at least in the melee group. Crit stacking comes as a side effect because all the best gear has ridiculous amounts of agility on it anyway. Crits are more valuable than white hits because of meta gem (12 agi/3%crit bonus) and predatory instincts.

dukes · 09/10/07, 6:37 AM

Originally Posted by anathor

(and by the way Predatory Instincts gives you 20% more damage on a crit, not 10%)

That depends on entirely how you read it. It's 20% more total damage in comparison to the base damage you would do otherwise, correct. It's 10% more total damage in comparison to how much a crit would've done.

i.e.
Crit = (100% + 100%) * 1.1 = total value after predatory instinct, or 10% more damage "on a crit".

Athinira · 09/10/07, 8:02 AM

Originally Posted by Rurik

Aye, that's my point. Miss recorded with sub 6% and I've yet to see a miss recorded with 6%.

Posting to show support for this on my account.

With 24 FCSR (is used Earthwarden as DPS weapon for a time) and 101 hitrating (6.39%) i never missed an attack against a level 73 boss mob.

So given the discussion at hand with the other examples set above, i would personally say that while we don't have 100% accurate numbers, 20 Feral Combat Skill Rating (5 skill total) does indeed seem to give around 3% chance to hit against a raid boss for a Feral Druid. This makes Shapeshifter's Signet a big "yay" for Feral Druid raid DPS. This is especially considering the latest DPS simulations by Rannasha on the EU Druid Forums, showing that hitrating is inferior to a Feral Druid compared to agility and strength unless its distributed as a hybrid stat on a DPS item (in regards to how the Item Value system works in regards to assigning multiple stats to a gear piece). Feral Combat Skill Rating is, in this regard, a very cheap DPS stat for the first 5 stats that is.

Rannasha's thread can be found here: [Math] Hit rating, how good is it really?

If anyone has some more numbers to post in regards to Feral Combat Skill and misses, i would strongly encourage them to do so.

Boevis:

Crit isn't worth that much.

I hate posting such a blanket statement, but it's just not

Just a question, when you are referring to "crit", are you talking about critrating or agility specifically?

My PvE DPS setup includes a heavy bunch of agility, all my gems are pretty much 8 agi. A friend said to me at a point then, that i was potentially gimping my DPS because my stats, in their current form, would make Strength an overall stronger stat for me. I digged a bit around on the subject and found this, which to my info assumed a full Feral specced Druid:

My current setup gives me, totally unbuffed, approximately 36.5% chance to crit and 2550 attack power. This means that, even in my current high agility setup, I'm actually better off still stacking agility. I can only imagine this increases even more when you attain a new weapon with Feral Attack Power (in my case, I'm using Feral Staff of Lashing from Heroic Botanica because Illhoof has refused to drop his staff. If i attained, say, Season 2 Arena Mace, my spot on the graph above would put me even more into the area where 1 agility > 1 strength).

Now talking raid buffs, druids already "per default" have Leader of the Pack. So when we are achieving more power in a DPS group, most of the buffs we are going to get are going to increase our Attack Power more than it will increase our chance to crit. Lets be generous and give the druid Grace of Air totem which increases his chance to crit by around 3.5%. I don't think that it that this, in any way, is enough to push the druid towards strength being a more powerful stat once you add:
Strength of Earth Totem
Battle Shout
Enhancement Shamans 10% Attack Power Buff
Possibly Trueshot Aura (though unlikely)

Bottom line is though that i believe you are vastly underestimating crit, or at least you are underestimating agility. The graph above, assuming it can be trusted, shows that as a Feral Druid in high end DPS gear, you will in most case scenarios always be better off stacking Agility than Strength.

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Edit:
In addition to this, i have some interesting stats to add for Hourglass and Omen of Clarity.

Spending one hour in Blasted Lands i was able to get some interested results in regards to the two mentioned entities above.

Omen of Clarity's procrate, based on 30 minutes of testing, is 1.4 Procs Per Minute.
Chance to Proc in Cat Form:
100 * 1.4 * 1 / 60 = 2.33% per Melee Attack

Bear Form:
2.33 * 2.5 = 5.83%

[Hourglass of the Unraveller] is theoretically easier to calculate since we already have the necessary stats datamined: 10% chance to proc on a Critical Strike with a 30 second Internal Cooldown.

Having said that, i decided to spend another 30 minutes in Blasted Lands. I made a macro that spammed Mangle (Cat) constantly using the Logitech G15 Keyboard. I was using Tier4 2 piece setbonus and Omen of Clarity, and had 37.3% crit chance. With these stats and constant Mangle spam, i found it to be up exactly one-sixth (1/6) of the time, or putting it another way, the Exact PPM with these stats for a feral druid, if you include the Internal cooldown is very close to 1 PPM. This means that for a Feral Druid in early Kara/Heroic epic DPS gear, you will be looking at a passive 50 Attack Power from the Hourglass.

Malazaar · 09/10/07, 2:17 PM

Is anyone exalted with Scales of the Sand (Hyjal Fraction) yet and has information about the procrate of the Band of the Eternal Champion ?

Olon97 · 09/10/07, 5:47 PM

This table from the rogue/warrior weapon skill thread deserves reproduction here (edit: source):

Originally Posted by sp00n

This are now how the tables look:

....

Target 3 levels higher, one-hand or two handed weapon or ranged, no +Hit through talents

Skill    Hit   Miss    Total    Decrease
+ 0   141.92    9.0%   + 4.0%   0.0%
+ 1   135.62    8.6%   + 3.6%   0.4%
+ 2   129.31    8.2%   + 3.2%   0.4%
+ 3   123       7.8%   + 2.8%   0.4%
+ 4   116.69    7.4%   + 2.4%   0.4%
+ 5    94.62    6.0%   + 1.0%   1.4%  --> 1% jump
+ 6    93.04    5.9%   + 0.9%   0.1%
+ 7    91.46    5.8%   + 0.8%   0.1%
+ 8    89.89    5.7%   + 0.7%   0.1%
+ 9    88.31    5.6%   + 0.6%   0.1%
+10    86.73    5.5%   + 0.5%   0.1%
+11    85.15    5.4%   + 0.4%   0.1%
+12    83.58    5.3%   + 0.3%   0.1%
+13    82       5.2%   + 0.2%   0.1%
+14    80.42    5.1%   + 0.1%   0.1%
+15    73.85    5.0%   + 0.0%   0.1%

I have yet to see any evidence to indicate that feral combat skill is working any differently than as discovered for weapon skills of other classes.

Hit cap with no +feral combat skill: 9.0% or 142 hit rating.

Hit cap with just earthwarden: 5.9% or 94 hit rating.

Hit cap with just shapeshifter's signet: 6.0% or 95 hit rating.

Hit cap with both earthwarden and shapeshifter's signet: 5.4% or 85 hit rating.

Boevis · 09/11/07, 12:17 AM

Ugh, ignore my posts, not giving +4 stats UW was just stupid

Athinira · 09/11/07, 8:17 PM

In my newly created blog i wrote a thing or two about Strength vs. Agility, based on my last post. You can find the article here. Remember, this is just my view on things, but its at least a general model and theory id like to build my DPS setup around:

The Druid Wiki » AthinirasCorner <--- Agility vs. Strength for high end Feral Druid DPS

frdrk · 09/12/07, 4:50 AM

I didn't think this warranted it's own thread and this was the most on topic. The last couple of days I've been searching these forums in search of a better spreadsheet than what I've been using so far. I can't seem to find anything that's updated properly however - found one that didn't include my weapon in the item lists and didn't support custom item creation, found another that somehow gave me a DPS increase from reducing my crit at no other gain.
Is there any spreadsheets out there modeled around the 81 energy Rip -> Mangle cycle? If so, I'd be delighted to try them out. I'd love to help out with quirks and "random features" to make a better spreadsheet.