Feral Druid DPS - Page 50

swills · 09/14/07, 5:58 PM

Also, remember that Shadowprowler's Chestguard - Items - World of Warcraft should be here in the next week or two (I hope at least; I haven't heard any mention of it recently though) so make sure your guild LWer has the mats on hand to make that for you on patch day.

I think that chest is slightly better than T5 for DPS so it should be a decent upgrade for most of us.

Tuhalu · 09/14/07, 8:41 PM

Originally Posted by gunsmithx

I'd start by swaping out your trinkets, bloodlust brooch and crystalforged trinket are better upgrades at those spots. you could also use some +hit so I'd try to get exhalted with LC and get a shapeshifters signet, 2pt4 is also worth having if you have more then just the helm(I use shoulers and pants myself atm).

I have to disagree with that. Crystalforged Trinket and Bloodlust Brooch are both pretty good, but they are strictly inferior to Hourglass of the Unraveller. Not only are the total stats on Hourglass going to give you more benefit than the total stats and clickies of the Crystalforged and Bloodlust, but that's a timer you won't have to pay attention to, allowing you to concentrate on the rest of your job better. Darkmoon Card: Crusade is also nice for the no-clicky effect, although in any fight where you often have to stop attacking for 10 seconds or more, it will be inferior.

The best slots to use as T4 for the 2-piece set bonus are the gloves and the shoulders as they have the least effect on your overall stats.

Boevis · 09/14/07, 10:02 PM

Originally Posted by Tuhalu

.. but that's a timer you won't have to pay attention to, allowing you to concentrate on the rest of your job better. Darkmoon Card: Crusade is also nice for the no-clicky effect, although in any fight where you often have to stop attacking for 10 seconds or more, it will be inferior.

The best slots to use as T4 for the 2-piece set bonus are the gloves and the shoulders as they have the least effect on your overall stats.

Due to being able to macro use of trinkets, that's really a null argument against "use" based. Our cycle based dps and "movement" fights further reinforce the potency of "use" trinkets; I can often pull off 2 Rips with a Crystalforged, and nearly 2 full cycles with a Bloodlust, and any time spent out of melee range by necessity is basically free cooldown time on your trinkets and the list of fights that involve not attacking for X time is rather massive.

T4 shoulders are a very nice item, I use them and the helm (I wanted the meta gem and lack t5 helm). Do not waste your time getting T4 pants, you're already in SSC so the amazing T5 pants aren't far off for you, just save for them.

Malazaar · 09/15/07, 7:43 AM

Err, not that i don't like BB and CFT, but i can't help but wonder - how do you pull of two rips with the crystalforged ?

Are you deliberately wasting a tick for the next rip to benefit from the ap-buff ? Cause a single rip tick is worth way more damage than what a trinketed rip adds.

dukes · 09/15/07, 8:01 AM

Originally Posted by Malazaar

Err, not that i don't like BB and CFT, but i can't help but wonder - how do you pull of two rips with the crystalforged ?

Are you deliberately wasting a tick for the next rip to benefit from the ap-buff ? Cause a single rip tick is worth way more damage than what a trinketed rip adds.

Bloodlust has a 2 minute cooldown, crystalforged has a 1 minute cooldown. Both can affect 2 rips per 2 minute "cycle" of the trinket.

orangefoodie · 09/15/07, 11:24 PM

Originally Posted by Boevis

Due to being able to macro use of trinkets, that's really a null argument against "use" based.

/noobquestion
do you macro your trinkets to rip? shred? I keep forgetting to use them and I was wondering what others did. Is it better to have the trinket affect the 3x+ shred to build up cp, or the rip itself? I can't fit one whole rip cycle into the duration of CT so...

Tuhalu · 09/16/07, 3:13 AM

Originally Posted by Boevis

Due to being able to macro use of trinkets, that's really a null argument against "use" based. Our cycle based dps and "movement" fights further reinforce the potency of "use" trinkets; I can often pull off 2 Rips with a Crystalforged, and nearly 2 full cycles with a Bloodlust, and any time spent out of melee range by necessity is basically free cooldown time on your trinkets and the list of fights that involve not attacking for X time is rather massive.

Even if it's macroed, you still need to pay attention to it. If you press that button 2 seconds before you are forced out of melee range by something, then a large portion of the benefit is wasted. If you press that button before your energy is high, then some of the potential benefit is wasted. Once you do press the button, you have to pay attention to make sure you get the full benefit of it. I know my own ability to pay attention to multiple things at once is strained past a certain point and it's not in my own best interest to go past that point. Some people have a higher limit for multiple things to process and that's fine. Mine is 2 on-use items lower than theirs. Please note that I also realize that Proc trinkets also require you to pay attention to maximizing their benefits, but at least you don't have to plan when to activate them to gain the best benefit.

As far as the inflation of on-use benefit through free cooldown time (needing to be out of melee range) or a short window of opportunity for inflated damage (Curator Evocation, Illidan trapped) it depends on how far you have progressed. In the T4 zones, there seems to be a clear benefit in having an on-use on 9 out of 13 fights. In T5 zones, it looks to be about 5 out of 10, so it's worthwhile to have the on-use available. In the T6 zones, only 5 out of 14 bosses benefit significantly from use of use trinkets over non-use trinkets. So early on, I would agree there is some inflated benefit to on-use trinkets, but once you get into the current final zones, it becomes more or less a waste of time.

One other argument I would make is that having a second on-use trinket is less beneficial than having only one on-use and a permanent-effect or proc trinket. This is because you can only get the effect of one attack type on-use effect at a time. If you have a proc-trinket, then you can click your on-use when the proc activates and stack the benefits for higher burst than having two on-use items. If you have a permanent-effect trinket, then you will always get the combined benefit of the two when you activate the on-use effect for slightly higher burst than having two on-use items.

Finally, the strongest trinkets currently available to druids are Tsunami Talisman, Madness of the Betrayer, Hourglass of the Unraveller and Darkmoon Card: Crusade. You'll notice that none of them have on-use effects. Crystalforged Trinket and Bloodlust Brooch actually require you to use their cooldowns very effectively to make them equally as good, much less better than those other trinkets.

The Grog · 09/16/07, 3:47 AM

Hmm, I'm not so sure on Madness. Armor pen isn't so hot for us, considering how much damage we get from Rip bleeds. But then, there aren't any OTHER t6 dps trinkets to compete with it.

The gap between Crusade and Bloodlust Brooch isn't that much if you just play smart and macro bloodlust to your rip button.

How does the Living Root stack up? I dismissed it when I first got it, but looking at it again recently the uptime on the cat blessing gives an average AP somewhat higher than the Houglass at reasonable crit rates (>50%). The question on my mind is if the static crit is enough to compensate.

And anybody care to wager on how many feral items will be found in ZA? My guess is a number lower than 2.

Malazaar · 09/16/07, 3:51 AM

Having bad timing can not only happen to use-trinkets - it will happen to proc-trinkets, too. You can have a proc and have to back up or have a proc the time your cycle ands and you save energy. At least with use-trinkets you have the control over things and can minimize those bad luck events.

Boevis · 09/16/07, 6:13 AM

Originally Posted by orangefoodie

/noobquestion
do you macro your trinkets to rip? shred? I keep forgetting to use them and I was wondering what others did. Is it better to have the trinket affect the 3x+ shred to build up cp, or the rip itself? I can't fit one whole rip cycle into the duration of CT so...

Then you're running your cycle wrong or have the worst luck ever and can't get shred crits: Rip (30) + Mangle (40) + Shredx3 (126) = 196. For a powershift cycle (buildup to 100e every cycle) attach the trinkets to Rip, you will exactly hit your last shred on the CTs final seconds. Ignore the white attacks.

But for damage from AP:
Shred is AP/14*2.25*1.1*1.3 = .23 damage per AP (* crit chance * 2.2 for PI) = ~.326 dpAP*DR from Armor with 35% crit
Rip is AP*.24*1.1*1.3 = .3432 dpAP

Tuhalu - while I'll agree that 2x use trinkets isn't the best, I can make the same arguments against procs that you are using against use. What if it procs right before you have to run out of range? What if you're out of energy or already have 5 CPs? (waiting for the 81+ tic)? You have no control over a proc. With a 0 crit cycle, you have 12 seconds of ability use chained and 12 seconds of nothing but white, probability is in favor of Use. With an average cycle being only 12 : 6 it's still not amazing. And with only a 15 second difference in cooldown (CT vs Hourglass) I don't think it's a difficult choice.

As for bosses with out of "melee": Rage, Azgalor, Supremus, Gorefiend (assuming rezzed), Archimone, Council, and Illidan all seem to have "gtfo" abilities, some are trivial and you could with amazing healing question their detriment, others are involuntary, others are potential raid wipers ... I should also mention Najentus as every good druid should tranquility his group when they take massive AoE damage. (2/5 T5 is going to be really hard for me to give up unless my healers stop sucking)

Daenerys · 09/16/07, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by Boevis

As for bosses with out of "melee": Rage, Azgalor, Supremus, Gorefiend (assuming rezzed), Archimone, Council, and Illidan all seem to have "gtfo" abilities, some are trivial and you could with amazing healing question their detriment, others are involuntary, others are potential raid wipers ... I should also mention Najentus as every good druid should tranquility his group when they take massive AoE damage. (2/5 T5 is going to be really hard for me to give up unless my healers stop sucking)

I've rarely felt more useful as a "hybrid" than on Naj'entus...DPSing most of the time, shift when he bubbles and pop Barkskin for that delicious -damage. Tranq the first bubble for the melee group, then on every other one I'm throwing an instant Regrowth (2pcT5) on our low-HP Shaman who comes out of each explosion with like 800 HP. Then right back to DPSing. I really love this fight. =P

ramenchef · 09/16/07, 2:54 PM

Actually, most theorycrafting put trinkets for druids as follows. DST > Tsunami > Crystalforged >bloodlust > hourglass. Haven't quite done the math on betrayer yet. Also, armor penetration does help quite a bit still as a druid as only 20% of our dmg comes from rips.

Boevis · 09/16/07, 5:19 PM

Originally Posted by ramenchef

Actually, most theorycrafting put trinkets for druids as follows. DST > Tsunami > Crystalforged >bloodlust > hourglass. Haven't quite done the math on betrayer yet. Also, armor penetration does help quite a bit still as a druid as only 20% of our dmg comes from rips.

I think a lot of people are stuck on the whole "from an itemization standpoint, -armor sucks for druids" but lets face it, our ideal itemization has changed multiple times as gear has changed, and I doubt (though I wish) blizzard would put in a "Druid DPS Trinket" (though a decent feral bear+cat trinket with agi/sta/resil would be cool too) from raiding.

Runetotem's Petroglyph of Savagery
Unique
Trinket
Requires Level 70
+20 Strength
+20 Agility
Equip: Improves Hit Rating by 15
Equip: Each time you do critical Melee damage to an opponent, you gain 1 weapon damage for the next 30 seconds stacking up to 10 times.

I could have made it more min-maxxed I'm sure by using Agi>Str>AP>Hit>Crit and then a nice use:+Agi, but where's the creativity in that?

dukes · 09/16/07, 7:28 PM

Originally Posted by Boevis

Runetotem's Petroglyph of Savagery

Sorry to bring you crashing back into the game we play in, but:
Feral druids are the equivalent of 1/27th of the raiding population, if you go by pure spec outlook. In a true outlook, it's probably closer to 1/20th's or so in most guilds. If you look at current itemisation, they design trinkets for 3-4 _classes_ at a time (or 9-12/27th's of specs) in general. There's no way in hell they'd design a trinket for ferals in a pure sense, other than taking them into consideration on the class trinket.

I'm perfectly happy with the selection of trinkets available right now, the problem is the lack of drops. We've never seen a madness of the betrayer, we've seen 1 DST, we saw 3 or 4 tsunami's (which was actually a good drop rate - we had half orca-hide boots and half tsunami's off leo when we were killing him). This gives a total of 5 (at most) pure physical DPS trinkets for Hunters(3 potential specs), rogues(3 potential specs), DPS warriors (2 potential specs), ret paladins (1 spec), feral druids (1 spec) and enhancement shaman (1 spec) for our guild, which is just ridiculous. If you look at the straight up drop-rate of all the trinkets, they're all really low. When you think that people might actually want 2 of these simultaneously, all reason goes out the window. As it goes right now, I think madness might actually be worse for me than the Bloodlust brooch, as I'm hit capped. Pretty ridiculous when you think of it that way.

Trinkets in general are severely lacking for what is 2 slots on every person. We still have healers using the Rejuve Gem and Essence of the Martyr, quite a few physical DPS using the bloodlust brooch, and we've never seen the defensive trinket from Bloodboil. Let's face it, the trinkets out there at high end are really nice (Skull of Guldan, Gurtogg defence trinket, Madness of the Betrayer) but there's so many classes to share them across that is it right there's only one of each at the very top end which are on heavily shared loottables?

There's also more than enough +hit around (especially with FCS) to not need any on a "pure feral druid" trinket.

but where's the creativity in that?

- I think that must have been what the designer of the Living Root was thinking. It was creative, but pretty useless in a "min-max" sense. Anything now that is designed to be worse in a pure sense than stuff available before it gets passed over by most people. Occaisionally someone will take it for a random reason but, especially in DKP systems, people will generally just let it rot.

The significant difference between Crystalforged and Hourglass is also not the cooldown. As you say, the cooldown is very similar. The difference is that the Hourglass is 300 AP, while the Crystalforged is only 216. That's a pretty major difference, and I think it makes up for the less controllable nature of the hourglass proc. I also seriously dislike the design of the Crystalforged (1 minute cooldown, 10 second 'uptime', weapon damage as passive) but that's not really here nor there. You could of course have both trinkets, and use the hourglass for non-interrupt fights and the Crystalforged for the rest, if that's how you prefer to play.

/rant.

Tuhalu · 09/16/07, 7:56 PM

Originally Posted by Boevis

As for bosses with out of "melee": Rage, Azgalor, Supremus, Gorefiend (assuming rezzed), Archimone, Council, and Illidan all seem to have "gtfo" abilities, some are trivial and you could with amazing healing question their detriment, others are involuntary, others are potential raid wipers ... I should also mention Najentus as every good druid should tranquility his group when they take massive AoE damage. (2/5 T5 is going to be really hard for me to give up unless my healers stop sucking)

On Azgalor, melee shouldn't be anywhere near Azgalor, they should be killing Doomguards, thus avoiding chaining fire onto your ranged or dying from it themself. With the number of melee we bring, usually one doomguard dies just before another spawns, so you spend 90% of your time killing doomguards (including warstomped time). If you get killed by Doom, then you might get soulstoned/combat ressed and get back in the fight, but that's usually only 20 seconds out of the entire fight and pretty unlikely to happen (maybe 5 people get Doomed the whole fight). I don't see cooldowns being super useful here.

On Gorefiend, the chance of any individual being ghosted is low (maybe 5 people out of 24). I haven't even been asked to combat res a person on any of our Gorefiend kills because it's just not needed. Any people we need to have back after their ghost time is over get a soulstone before they run out of range and that is that. If a feral druid gets turned into a ghost after the first couple of people get ghosted, they just don't need to be ressed for the fight to be a win (and probably won't be). So on Gorefiend you are either in combat the whole time or you get taken out of catform permanently. Either way, your cooldowns are going to be irrelevant.

The other 5 bosses are the ones I agree favor on-use trinkets.

ramenchef, DST will be worse than the trinkets I listed with all the nerfs it is getting in the upcoming patch. So if you don't have it now, don't bother getting it is what I'm saying. For classes with higher white damage, it's still the best, just by not as much.