Feral Druid DPS - Page 54

onkl · 09/21/07, 8:34 AM

I switched from Chronometer to ClassTimers because its more accurate. Chronometer sometimes shows bars for spells that were resisted. So you allways have to double check if the debuff is applied or not.

Vaccine · 09/21/07, 8:41 AM

Originally Posted by david0925

1.There's math on the 10ish page about the idol. Long story short: no, its not worth it.

2.Everbloom idol doesn't make sense, but whatever

Everbloom idol makes perfect sense.

You'd switch to everbloom after you got the mangle buff from white stag to get bonus on your shreds. Then repeat.

That is were it worth it, which its not due to the gcd on idol swaps.

As for the idea of converting HotW to benefit from rogue leather, its a brilliant idea in principle but I can't see Blizzard making such a massive overhaul of a class at this point.

I guess we'll just have to see which path they take with Zul'Aman, the Sunwell and the new heroic badge rewards. I cannot see them making the same mistake again of underitemising ferals or any other raiding spec so our answer is going to be in the items we receive there as to what direction they want us to be heading.

My prediction is simply more and more bear/cat items mimicking our Tier sets and crafted items. Whilst this isn't nessecarily a bad thing would have been nice to get some specially tailored cat or bear items.

Allev · 09/21/07, 10:28 AM

Our AGI modifier is already overpowered-- we get a much better crit ratio from it than rogues do and as much AP. It's just that they insist on giving us hybrid stats (hello, INT!) on items which we don't want in lieu of giving us 3 DPS stats on DPS items like rogues get. Heck, I counted a hunter item the other day with 5 stats relevant to their DPS on it. Cursed Vision of Sargeras has 4 for rogues (and the few druids who get to roll on it). But the only gear you see STR, AGI, and another DPS stat is feral pants.

Falk · 09/21/07, 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by Liar

Now to finally get to the point: Why aren't they doing this for Cat? Where are the scaling mods for Cat? HotW is outdated in it's current form as mentioned above - I am talking about stuff that scales from Rogue stats. You know, stuff like "Increases your Agility/AP by X% while in Cat form".

I think I actually like how the mechanics of the class design works. From what I perceive, druids were given insane scaling based off certain stats EXACTLY so that hybrid gear works out.

As it is, Str and Agi are THE stats to look out for catform (like, 40-65% better than AP/crit?). Those two stats benefit druids more than rogues. Yes, Agi does - crit benefit from agility for druids are pretty high. Sta/Agi/Armor are ridiculously good for bearform, as you've pointed out.

Making scaling factors for AP would probably homogenize gear too much, which can be both good and bad. However looking at how tanking gear for warriors/bears (on slots like rings/trinkets, naturally) have panned out, I'm personally leaning towards diversifying itemization as the more elegant solution.

What I mean to say is, the class mechanics seem fine to me for the most part. It's just the itemization to -take advantage- of the class design which is missing.

Honestly... nothing outside tier pieces and a pair of boots? Nonexistant bracer pieces? No epic options for DPS cloak/ring/neck other than SSC/SSC/Karazhan? Come on. :/

(p.s. no 'options' referring to items which take advantage of class design. I'm well aware that some drops are (albeit really marginal, sad really) upgrades off the cloak/ring/neck I'm talking about)

((p.p.s. on the topic of Idol of the White Stag, farming has become so insanely fast with it, 2pc T6, and the Ashtongue trinket. 4 Mangles for 140 energy, keeping in mind that this means you wait at most 1 second for enough energy for the 4th mangle,, while having the chance to proc a cartload of AP, usually leaves most non-elites near dead in 4 seconds. Pounce-mangle-shred doesn't even seem worth the effort anymore. :P))

Daenerys · 09/21/07, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by Vaccine

Everbloom idol makes perfect sense.

You'd switch to everbloom after you got the mangle buff from white stag to get bonus on your shreds. Then repeat.

That is were it worth it, which its not due to the gcd on idol swaps.

I meant the name doesn't make sense..."everbloom" for a DPS idol. Sounds more like an Idol that would increse the healing done on Lifebloom, no?

Valerian · 09/21/07, 2:46 PM

Originally Posted by falkon2

((p.p.s. on the topic of Idol of the White Stag, farming has become so insanely fast with it, 2pc T6, and the Ashtongue trinket. 4 Mangles for 140 energy, keeping in mind that this means you wait at most 1 second for enough energy for the 4th mangle,, while having the chance to proc a cartload of AP, usually leaves most non-elites near dead in 4 seconds. Pounce-mangle-shred doesn't even seem worth the effort anymore. :P))

You realize if you're mangling that much Idol of the Wild is better than Idol of the White Stag right?

IotWS: Adds 94 AP which = 6.71 Damage to a white attack and 12.9 damage to a mangle (assuming savage fury).

So you're mangling 4 times in what 5 seconds? That means you get:

12.9*4 + 5*6.71 = 85.15 damage

IotW: 24 damage per mangle:

24* 4 = 96 damage.

Idol of the White Stag is a piece of crap, there's really no way around it. Its better than Idol of the Wild if you're constantly killing things and not having any spare time to let energy regen without white attacks hitting something.

IotWS: 12.9 + 6.71*3.5 = 36.385
IotW: 24

Both of these are when you are constantly mangling over long term. Which really shouldnt ever occur anyways...

Calgar · 09/21/07, 2:58 PM

Thought i'd show this to you guys. Was our WWS parse of lurker this week. My little brother, vroth, got top dps.

He had a fury warrior (calgra, aka me) and an enhancement shaman in his group. Full dps gear, which you can see here Vroth

He also had the other feral druid keeping mangle up for him the whole time too.

The parse Feral > Lurker

I was fairly impressed, especially considering the other 2 ferals in the guild are always dead last on DPS, even when in full DPS gear.

Falk · 09/21/07, 3:16 PM

Originally Posted by Valerian

You realize if you're mangling that much Idol of the Wild is better than Idol of the White Stag right?

The maths behind that is sound, but if any of those mangles crit, I'm finishing up with a 4-pt bite instead of a fourth mangle which closes the difference. In either case, though, it all adds up to extremely minor difference - (also discounting the fact that that I vendored IotW some time back. Don't ask >_>) I do agree that the White Stag is pretty much a useless piece of junk as it is though, especially considering where it drops.

Bloodwood · 09/21/07, 9:49 PM

Originally Posted by falkon2

The maths behind that is sound, but if any of those mangles crit, I'm finishing up with a 4-pt bite instead of a fourth mangle which closes the difference. In either case, though, it all adds up to extremely minor difference - (also discounting the fact that that I vendored IotW some time back. Don't ask >_>) I do agree that the White Stag is pretty much a useless piece of junk as it is though, especially considering where it drops.

Welcome to the world of someone that leveled moonkin. Oh well, I'm only a tier behind getting an idol for grinding.

Tyvi · 09/22/07, 12:14 AM

Disclaimer: I am basing my post on this thread: Cross-Class Numbers Request - AP:DPS
I assume the numbers listed in there are accurate, if they are not the conclusion may be off for obvious reasons.

Originally Posted by falkon2

As it is, Str and Agi are THE stats to look out for catform (like, 40-65% better than AP/crit?). Those two stats benefit druids more than rogues. Yes, Agi does - crit benefit from agility for druids are pretty high. Sta/Agi/Armor are ridiculously good for bearform, as you've pointed out.

According to the thread listed above, 1 AP increases the Druid's DPS by 0.2 DPS and a Rogue's DPS by 0.3 DPS. This by itself isn't surprising since we all know that 1 Str > 2 AP for druids since we do better with raw stats. The problem is this: People think Cat scales so well from stats, and while that is partially true, it is also misleading. Let's see why:

1 Str equals 2 AP item budgetwise.
2 AP gives a Rogue 0.6 more DPS.
1 Str equals 2.7 AP in Cat form (HotW, SotF and Kings included), which gives us 0.54 more DPS.

So even with our the scaling mods Cat already has (HotW and SotF), Rogues still get more DPS from their specialized item than we would if we had a specialized item for that slot ourselves. This just is not about calculating how much less we get from an item intended for Rogues which we have to use because there is no other optionat all, this is comparing their best to our best (for Str anyway).

I don't know about you, but this did shock me the first time I thought about it. I always thought that Cats do scale well with stats, and while it is true that Cat scales best with stats it is not true that Cat scales better with stats than Rogues scale with AP/Agi/Crit rating.

You can argue that Agility is better for Cats anyway but unfortunately I don't have the math for that (how much DPS do Cats/Rogues get from the crit 1 agility provides for example*) so I am sticking with Str/AP for the moment being.

*WTB a working DPS spreadsheet for Druids

SS_Keera · 09/22/07, 4:27 AM

Originally Posted by Liar

You can argue that Agility is better for Cats anyway but unfortunately I don't have the math for that (how much DPS do Cats/Rogues get from the crit 1 agility provides for example*) so I am sticking with Str/AP for the moment being.

*WTB a working DPS spreadsheet for Druids

I just wanted to mention that one point why most druids go for agi instead of str/AP is that it is also the most usful dps stat if you have to offtank something for a short period throughout the fight.
And even for a dps only role you have to find a sweet spot between AP and crit, because i think its commonly agreed that the value of crit increases with increasing AP and vice versa. And since crit rating is for us worse than agi the way to go is clear.

Regarding the spreadsheet i agree

Exewut · 09/22/07, 5:55 AM

There has been a druid spreadsheet around from before TBC, I know, since I made it

Boevis · 09/22/07, 6:11 AM

Working on it Liar, lots of real work to do though.

But you hit the nail on the head there, the common statement that druids have "Insane scaling" is a bit of a fallacy, all we have is superficial "bigger" numbers that result in much smaller numbers than other classes in some cases. This is of course, completely from a DPS perspective, as I have no complaints whatsoever about bearforms Sta/Armor/Agi scaling.

While I can't answer if Agi is better for Rogues than Druids, one can surmise that it going to be close based on AP being clearly better for rogues than druids (50% better if your numbers are correct) the question would the value of 1% crit for rogues vs 2% crit for druids (I believe we get double the crit from agi they do?)

schmurfy · 09/22/07, 9:44 AM

Hi, I have tested stacking str and stacking agi and I agree on the fact that I benefit fare more from agi than str (for my current gear which brings me to around 4k PA in raid), my question is: is there a hard cap to crit % ?
I am currently at 46% fully buffed and pretty happy with that, If possible I really want to go past 50% to see the results :p.

schmurfy · 09/22/07, 9:48 AM

Originally Posted by Calgar

Thought i'd show this to you guys. Was our WWS parse of lurker this week. My little brother, vroth, got top dps.

He had a fury warrior (calgra, aka me) and an enhancement shaman in his group. Full dps gear, which you can see here Vroth

He also had the other feral druid keeping mangle up for him the whole time too.

The parse Feral > Lurker

I was fairly impressed, especially considering the other 2 ferals in the guild are always dead last on DPS, even when in full DPS gear.

Since casters cannot get aggro in this fight your numbers are really odd, I seriously wonder what your casters were doing in this fight.