 |
09/27/07, 11:49 AM
|
#916
|
|
Von Kaiser
Night Elf Druid
Tichondrius
|
Originally Posted by dukes
In blizzards eyes it will always be that our utility (combat res, still able to heal, offtank, innervate, tranquility) means we don't deserve a top 5 DPS place. In my eyes, that's perfectly acceptable.
|
Then give us some decent DPS, or even for that matter tanking, cooldowned abilities that share timers with all of those you listed. It's not hard, they built them right into both the warrior and paladin classes. You can easily limit the druid class without actually limiting anything, shared cooldown oh shit buttons would do nothing but benefit all aspects of druids; resto, balance and feral.
Hell one of our restos burns hours every week farming magic dust to save himself from loose adds during trash and some bosses, i bet he would pay a tranq/innervate cooldown and some mana for a Balance version of soul shatter or a Feral version of last stand or evasion.
|
pure-dps feral is a bit of a waste of space in comparison to, say, another rogue (as you pointed out yourself).
|
This specifically is at fault of blizzard and their epic failure that is windfury, potting in forms and the idiocy surrounding our itemization in tier 6. We are pure DPS in about a third the bosses in tier 6 anyways, assuming you don't get subbed out for something more useful.
Last edited by Dalamar : 09/27/07 at 11:56 AM.
|
|
|
|
|
09/27/07, 11:53 AM
|
#917
|
|
Von Kaiser
Night Elf Druid
Argent Dawn
|
I personally am quite satisfied with my DPS capabilities. I don't want to top meters or be a main DPS class, I want to fill the gaps where it's needed. That's my entire philosophy, the entire purpose of a feral druid in my opinion. To compliment the raid. And DPSing as good as a rogue simply doesn't fit in that image, for balancing purposes.
Maybe it's easier for me to accept because I used to play a rogue. I almost feel guilty when am very high on the meters, because I still remember MTing a boss moments before, whithout respeccing in between or anything.
|
|
|
|
|
09/27/07, 12:06 PM
|
#918
|
|
King Hippo
Night Elf Druid
Blackhand
|
Originally Posted by Enkor
Whether giving us mind-boggling tooltip stats is the way to go or not, if heart of the wild gave a bonus to attack power rather than to strength, we'd suddenly become super dependant on agility.
|
We're already super dependent on agility. Its the best stat you can stack once your AP gets reasonably high (which when raid buffed is probably while you're still in Kara).
|
|
|
|
|
09/27/07, 12:09 PM
|
#919
|
|
King Hippo
|
My (very basic) testing seemed to only grant up to 3 energy after a shift. Maybe I'm terrible or unlucky, but, yeah.
In summary, you still lose a white hit (while possibly gaining a melee hit) and a chance at losing a 2t4 proc, while getting only 20 energy out of the deal. Plus you lose whatever energy you had left over, plus you lose some amount of mana (enough to hurt your utility in role changing/emergency healing).
I feel as though the powershifting is really strained when you have 2t4 to the point where it's not worth what you gain in utility. And if you shift enough to use mana pots, perhaps you might be entering the realm of seeing haste pots/strength pots on a very occasional shift bringing more reward.
|
|
|
|
|
09/27/07, 12:25 PM
|
#920
|
|
King Hippo
Night Elf Druid
Blackhand
|
Originally Posted by Allev
My (very basic) testing seemed to only grant up to 3 energy after a shift. Maybe I'm terrible or unlucky, but, yeah.
In summary, you still lose a white hit (while possibly gaining a melee hit) and a chance at losing a 2t4 proc, while getting only 20 energy out of the deal. Plus you lose whatever energy you had left over, plus you lose some amount of mana (enough to hurt your utility in role changing/emergency healing).
I feel as though the powershifting is really strained when you have 2t4 to the point where it's not worth what you gain in utility. And if you shift enough to use mana pots, perhaps you might be entering the realm of seeing haste pots/strength pots on a very occasional shift bringing more reward.
|
I suspect powershifting will see some better utility once the instant /cancelform macros come in, in 2.3. A single press to essentially transfer mana to energy seems like it should work well.
|
|
|
|
|
09/27/07, 12:47 PM
|
#921
|
|
Von Kaiser
Night Elf Druid
Proudmoore
|
No. I want to be top 5 dps. I want to be able to stand toe to toe with the fury warriors, the ms warriors and the enhancement shamen. I will not subscribe to an attitude of limited coolness.
And while we're at it: No. I want to be a viable tank. I will not settle for tanking the Shadowmoon Houndmasters because I can shapeshift out of the icetrap.
I will not settle for being a pc shadowfiend.
I will not settle for being a backup healer who does dps when the raid does not need heals.
That a feral druid can do 'other stuff' should not mean that a feral druid dedicated in spec and gear for the role of melee dps is not capable of fulfilling that role fully.
To argue otherwise seems madness.
|
|
|
|
|
09/27/07, 1:07 PM
|
#922
|
|
Von Kaiser
Night Elf Druid
Argent Dawn
|
Originally Posted by angral
No. I want to be top 5 dps. I want to be able to stand toe to toe with the fury warriors, the ms warriors and the enhancement shamen. I will not subscribe to an attitude of limited coolness.
And while we're at it: No. I want to be a viable tank. I will not settle for tanking the Shadowmoon Houndmasters because I can shapeshift out of the icetrap.
I will not settle for being a pc shadowfiend.
I will not settle for being a backup healer who does dps when the raid does not need heals.
That a feral druid can do 'other stuff' should not mean that a feral druid dedicated in spec and gear for the role of melee dps is not capable of fulfilling that role fully.
To argue otherwise seems madness.
|
Sorry friend, but to me that sounds unreasonable, and not in train with what Blizzard's (and incidently, mine) idea of the role of a Feral Druid is in raids.
|
|
|
|
|
09/27/07, 1:08 PM
|
#923
|
|
Glass Joe
Tauren Druid
La Croisade Ecarlate (EU)
|
As a feral DPS I also think blizzard should give us proper items/talents to fully use our potential, outdpsing rogues is not my goal but we should be able to be just behind them.
I played my druid as a healer before BC but since it came out I only play as a feral now, I am pretty happy with my ability to tank and do not considere myself as an offtank but just as a tank (I tank tidalves in the karathress encounter and I am the only one with our MT able to tank him and I get ~70% avoided hits). I also brought my dps to a decent level keeping me in the top 5 melee when I am only dpsing.
In conclusion the only thing I think should be fixed is our itemisation, we need far more choice and I hope the new chest from Kara is only the first step from blizzard and other items will follow in 2.3 .
|
|
|
|
|
09/27/07, 1:29 PM
|
#924
|
|
Von Kaiser
Night Elf Druid
Argent Dawn
|
I'm quite content with itemnization for the most part. Of course we need a T5/T6 DPS weapon, not just a tank weapon, and 4/5 T6 should be better than 2/4 T4, but mostly I'm satisfied.
|
|
|
|
|
09/27/07, 1:40 PM
|
#925
|
|
Von Kaiser
Night Elf Druid
Proudmoore
|
Well... so be it. I think you're selling everyone here striving to be the best dps they can be short. So I guess we'll have to agree to thinking the other is an idiot under our breath while we continue to be civil to each other :p
That said, top 5 dps, while fun, should not be our goal. There are rogues, mages, hunters and warlocks who are all pure dps classes with varying degrees of utility to the raid that in a world of equal gear and skill and with balanced class design should occupy the top dps slots. Then you have all of the hybrids, the dps warriors, the shamen, the druids, the priests and the paladins.
Keeping up with the other hybrids is my idea of where we should be, given an equal level of gear and skill. That an extremely well played feral druid rorting every trick of gcd, powershifting and cycle timing can just keep up with an enhancement shaman who stands there and once every 6 seconds uses a Shock...
Le sigh at the fairness of the world I guess :]
|
|
|
|
|
09/27/07, 1:47 PM
|
#926
|
|
King Hippo
Night Elf Druid
Blackhand
|
Originally Posted by Wings
I'm quite content with itemnization for the most part. Of course we need a T5/T6 DPS weapon, not just a tank weapon, and 4/5 T6 should be better than 2/4 T4, but mostly I'm satisfied.
|
Gotta heavily disagree here. Almost all the "best" pieces of DPS gear are rogue pieces of gear. None of it is itemized with Feral druids in mind. [Treads of the Den Mother] is the only item in BT/Hyjal that is properly itemized for Ferals. Everything else has AP instead of Str and tons of hit which is generally superfluous since we only need 6% and 20 FCS.
|
|
|
|
|
09/27/07, 1:49 PM
|
#927
|
|
Don Flamenco
|
Originally Posted by angral
Keeping up with the other hybrids is my idea of where we should be, given an equal level of gear and skill. That an extremely well played feral druid rorting every trick of gcd, powershifting and cycle timing can just keep up with an enhancement shaman who stands there and once every 6 seconds uses a Shock...
Le sigh at the fairness of the world I guess :]
|
I'm getting memories of my past life as a Hunter...giving 150% effort to my shot rotation to do the same (or worse) DPS as a Rogue spamming SS and SnD... =P
But more on the topic, I think it's silly to strive for top 5 DPS as a Druid. We have soooo much utility that the other DPS classes don't have. I feel incredibly useful in a raid when I hit 950-1000 DPS and still get an Innervate and Brez off, plus maybe a heal or a Tranq on the melee group. No, I'm not top-5 DPS with that, but it's pretty respectable and I don't see the Rogues, Hunters, Warlocks or Mages rezzing anyong in between their DPS rotations. Now, that's at my current progression, where a Rogue might "win the meters" with 1200 DPS on a typical boss. As we kill more bosses in BT and get more gear and I'm still doing 1k while Rogues are doing 1.4k, I'll start to feel inadequate.
Keeping pace with other hybrids should be the goal, and there is certainly a lot of merit in asking for itemization fixes and a look into scaling us better at end-game.
|
|
|
|
|
09/27/07, 1:51 PM
|
#928
|
|
Don Flamenco
|

Originally Posted by angral
Well... so be it. I think you're selling everyone here striving to be the best dps they can be short. So I guess we'll have to agree to thinking the other is an idiot under our breath while we continue to be civil to each other :p
That said, top 5 dps, while fun, should not be our goal. There are rogues, mages, hunters and warlocks who are all pure dps classes with varying degrees of utility to the raid that in a world of equal gear and skill and with balanced class design should occupy the top dps slots. Then you have all of the hybrids, the dps warriors, the shamen, the druids, the priests and the paladins.
Keeping up with the other hybrids is my idea of where we should be, given an equal level of gear and skill. That an extremely well played feral druid rorting every trick of gcd, powershifting and cycle timing can just keep up with an enhancement shaman who stands there and once every 6 seconds uses a Shock...
Le sigh at the fairness of the world I guess :]
|
Sadly, powershifting is now impossible.  I really hope they look into restoring the functionality of it in some way.
|
|
|
|
|
09/27/07, 1:58 PM
|
#929
|
|
Von Kaiser
Night Elf Druid
Argent Dawn
|
Well... so be it. I think you're selling everyone here striving to be the best dps they can be short. So I guess we'll have to agree to thinking the other is an idiot under our breath while we continue to be civil to each other :p
That said, top 5 dps, while fun, should not be our goal. There are rogues, mages, hunters and warlocks who are all pure dps classes with varying degrees of utility to the raid that in a world of equal gear and skill and with balanced class design should occupy the top dps slots. Then you have all of the hybrids, the dps warriors, the shamen, the druids, the priests and the paladins.
Keeping up with the other hybrids is my idea of where we should be, given an equal level of gear and skill. That an extremely well played feral druid rorting every trick of gcd, powershifting and cycle timing can just keep up with an enhancement shaman who stands there and once every 6 seconds uses a Shock...
Le sigh at the fairness of the world I guess :]
|
Well, the problem lies in the word Hybrid. I agree that a hybrid specced and geared for DPS should be good DPS. An enhancement shaman for example. However, as a feral, you're never specced and geared for DPS. You're specced and geared to serve as a DPS/Tank hybrid.
That enhancement shaman has his talents and gear focussed on one thing only, which is DPS.
We can DPS and Tank with the same tier set and the same talent tree. We don't even have a choice, as most feral talents are in fact hybrid in nature. That's where, in my opinion, the difference lies.
Originally Posted by Valerian
Gotta heavily disagree here. Almost all the "best" pieces of DPS gear are rogue pieces of gear. None of it is itemized with Feral druids in mind. [Treads of the Den Mother] is the only item in BT/Hyjal that is properly itemized for Ferals. Everything else has AP instead of Str and tons of hit which is generally superfluous since we only need 6% and 20 FCS.
|
Well, 5 of our armour slots can be filled with T5 or T6 which is pretty good for DPS. Boots are itemnized. Leaves Bracers, Belt and Jewelry. I don't mind using Rogue or Warrior oriented items myself, they do their job well. But yes, I see your point and in an ideal game there would be Str/Agi items for those slots beyond Karazhan.
Last edited by Wings : 09/27/07 at 2:03 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
09/27/07, 2:25 PM
|
#930
|
|
King Hippo
Night Elf Druid
Blackhand
|
Originally Posted by Wings
Well, 5 of our armour slots can be filled with T5 or T6 which is pretty good for DPS. Boots are itemnized. Leaves Bracers, Belt and Jewelry. I don't mind using Rogue or Warrior oriented items myself, they do their job well. But yes, I see your point and in an ideal game there would be Str/Agi items for those slots beyond Karazhan.
|
To be fair though, even though our tier sets are good the off set pieces are often better. Using Toskk's DPS calculator with my current stats and Lootzor the top items for each slot are:
Boots: [Shadowmaster's Boots]
Legs: T6
Belt: [Don Alejandro's Money Belt]
Hands: T6 (there's the 2 set bonus)
Bracers: [Insidious Bands]
Chest: [Nether Shadow Tunic] (note [Midnight Chestguard] also better than T6
Cloak: [Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape]
Neck: [Choker of Endless Nightmares]
Shoulders: T6 (though need to use T4 since the bonus is soo good)
Helm [Cursed Vision of Sargeras] (again use T4 since the bonus is needed)
So I see two pieces of T6 gear designed for us that are our "ultimate" gear pieces. And two of our gear pieces are T4 !! because the set bonus is better than any T5 or T6 bonus. There are definitely problems with our itemization.
edit: if all those pieces had analog pieces itemized for druids (eg Str instead of AP, some hit rating changed to Str etc) we'd gain approx 150 more AP from them than what we currently do.
Last edited by Valerian : 09/27/07 at 2:33 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
|