Feral Druid DPS - Page 75

Allev · 10/08/07, 4:53 PM

Originally Posted by Malazaar

I don't think they are going to change existing feral loot - why should they anyway ?

This is a BUFF for us, especially for items not suited for us - it does in no way nerf any good feral item. It just means that a rogue item doesn't have to be 20 ilvl better than a feral item for us, just maybe 15.

They might because they're going to focus on S3 feral stats, and if they do that they could (possibly) make them better for DPS than T6.

And you're both right and wrong-- it's a buff for the class as a whole, but individual items (particularly "feral" tanking pieces) are worth a little less.

It's a (slight) nerf to every item where STR*2 > AGI. In terms of "old" AP:

AP from STR = 2*1.1(HOTW)*1.03(SOTF)*1.1(Kings) = 2.49, where it used to be 2.72
AP from AGI = 1*1.1(HOTW)*1.03(SOTF)*1.1(Kings) = 1.25, where it used to be 1.13

So for each point of STR on an "old item" we lose .23 AP per point, and for each point of AGI we gain .12 AP per point. So, our tier gear is slightly less powerful than before with this change, for catform; in exchange for a full category of DPS gear which all got a very good buff.

Which I'm very happy with. It fixes the itemization issue with our DPS to the point where it means we can focus on mechanics. (Hi, Ferocious Bite! How ya doin', Rake? Haven't seen you in awhile, Tiger's Fury!)

Malazaar · 10/08/07, 5:01 PM

From what i could see the only real change is that Thalassian Wildercloak will be our new best Cloak. Rings/Trinkets are also slightly shuffled, in favor of those with agi / ap on them. The Setitems are all relatively established in their slots (Head and Chest have and had alternatives) and in pretty much every other slot we wear rogue items anyway.

Edit: Ok, this is the (preliminary) 2.3. ultimate list. One thing to say, there are 4 combinations of Rings/Trinkets that have almost the same dps (difference <1 dps). You can for example switch out Tsunami for Madness and Stormrage for Lethality/Deceitful Intent without any noticable change in dps.

Cursed Vision of Sargeras + 34ap/16hit
Telonicus Pendant of Mayhem
Mantle of Malorne + scryer enchant
Thalassian Wildercloak + 12agi
Breastplate of Malorne + 6stats
Insidious Bands + 12str
Thunderheart Gauntlets + 15agi
Don Alejandro's Money Belt
Thunderheart Leggings + 50ap/12crit
Shadowmaster's Boots + 12agi
Merciless Gladiator's Maul + 35agi
Stormrage Signet Ring + 4stats
Band of the Eternal Champion + 4stats
Tsunami Talisman
Dragonspine Trophy

Gems: Relentless Earthstorm Diamond x1, Shifting Tanzanite x1, Shifting Shadowsong Amethyst x1, Glinting Pyrestone x1, Inscribed Pyrestone x1, the rest are Delicate Crimson Spinels.

Miss: 0.0 %
AP: 5172
Crit: 52.68 %
Average Autohit: 597.61
Average Manglehit: 1732.50
Average Shredhit: 2881.65
Average Ripdamage: 3997.25
Crits to 5cp: 3.5100
Energy per second: 13.2138
Average Cycle Length: 13.14 seconds
Average DPS: 1608.63

That is a buff of about 50 dps through the HotW changes alone. If i bring a hypothetical 2.3. S2 Weapon into the game (1007 AP instead of 788), i get a result of 1663.72 dps - another 55 dps buff.

Schnigges · 10/08/07, 5:59 PM

Could you run that again with 4t6 instead of 2t4?

Malazaar · 10/08/07, 7:27 PM

It's about 6 dps less than the ultimate set (basically the same as in the 2.2. ultimate set).

It's a question of personal preference, really. The difference is so minimal you will never notice it on any damagemeter.

Bloodwood · 10/08/07, 7:52 PM

Is staying in the top 5 dps for VR in a guild that is up to Vashj unusual? (considering my gear, LOLEARTHWARDEN). From what understand, the fight is very melee favoured, but I even managed to out dps the other druid who was in 4/5 T4 + Stranglestaff.

Neone · 10/08/07, 8:19 PM

Originally Posted by Bloodwood

Is staying in the top 5 dps for VR in a guild that is up to Vashj unusual? (considering my gear, LOLEARTHWARDEN). From what understand, the fight is very melee favoured, but I even managed to out dps the other druid who was in 4/5 T4 + Stranglestaff.

Not that unusual. If you said you were beating your rogues I'd worry. But depending on how the Orbs pan out, and how much people are slacking (we're on Vashj as well, at VR folks pretty much slack as far as I can tell and don't bother with consumables).

Also if your buddy was keeping mangle up for you, and you were in a good melee group... then I'm not surprised you did well.

Rainman5419 · 10/09/07, 3:43 AM

That isn't too unusual of a dps meter outcome.
As far as how good/bad the 2.3 HotW change is it's really quite mixed. Now instead of having a rare few feral pieces, it'll be much easier to get the same AP levels with rogue gear(which will have more hit than we need).

To calculate your new 2.3 AP use... Courtesy of Tangedyn
NEW_AP = (AP - STR/3) * 1.1

Where:
NEW_AP is your AP in patch 2.3
AP is your current AP in catform
STR is your current STR in catform

This is a simplification derived from:
NEW_AP = (AP - (STR - STR/1.2) * 2) * 1.1

This gave me a net increase in AP of 60 and is ONLY for cat form. This along with the posted increase in FAP on weapons should give most druids a good 100+AP boost in cat form. As far as how this will effect Bear AP I'm not sure. I do hope we have t4/5/6 set tweaks to make avoid the otherwise nerf to tier gear.

seminarca · 10/09/07, 5:13 AM

The only benefit Bear form will get is from the extra AP on weapons, HotW Str/AP boost is Cat form only.

Falk · 10/09/07, 6:59 AM

Wow... I'm a day or so behind, but the HotW change is massive. I don't know if I should be happy or distressed. :P

In the long run, though, Str is still marginally better than AP, so Str-itemized gear (w.r.t AP, not Agi, of course) would still be a 'druid staple' but hell, the lack of itemization has mysteriously just vanished.

I do hope they've thought this over thoroughly though, and that this isn't an overnight bandaid, because as it is, Agi is now massively overvalued compared to everything else. I'd really hate to see even more changes applied and/or reverted post patch 2.3, after months of collecting best-in-slot items, and endless number crunching/spreadsheets.

(I just picked up an Ancestral Ring of Conquest yesterday too, while more or less disconnecting the entire Lurker fight, just because I've had my eyes on that for months. My heart aches)

Edit: Speeling

tr33hugger · 10/09/07, 7:10 AM

I'm rather unconvinced that a mere increase in 100ap will fix our scaling problem towards the other melee classes. Blizzard would need to greatly increase the fap on weapons in order to achive that. Balance druids are able to sustain >90% of the top caster classes' dps. Ferals.. well.. you all know it. Even an increase of 500ap won't bring us on par with fury wars and melee shams (though sham dps seems to be rather boss-dependant).
The HotW change will definately be an increase to our dps but will not fix our scaling problems.

SS_Keera · 10/09/07, 7:14 AM

Originally Posted by seminarca

The only benefit Bear form will get is from the extra AP on weapons, HotW Str/AP boost is Cat form only.

That sums it up quite well. So after the patch the tier sets will serve for tanking only (apart from set bonus) since the HotW change doesn't effect bear form and its needed stats.
I think for dps non-set items will pretty much always be better. The strength is not needed for AP imo since our staffs get a serious buff and most rogue items have additional AP on them to fulfill our needs regarding AP. Therefore agi >> all is the rule much more then before. At least until there is some rework done on the sets.

Malazaar · 10/09/07, 7:22 AM

The Tier Sets will be good for DPS, even after the patch. Those pieces that had interesting alternatives before still have them and those pieces that had not are still outstanding (nothings beats t6 gloves, legs and shoulders imo).

Our scaling problem resolves from 4 main factors:

- we have no build-in haste effect for melee attacks (flurry for warriors/shamans, snd for rogues, seal of whatever for palas).

- we don't have windfury.

- our special hits all depend upon a 1.0 autoattack and even though we have better multipliers than rogues, they still get way more ap bonus to their ss/bs (don't even mention warriors).

- we have little to no endgame choices in most slots.

The forth point is being (partially) addressed in the patch. It certainly counteracts our scaling problem but there are still three other important factors.

mandella · 10/09/07, 7:55 AM

Have any actually done the math considering FAP buff on items? I mean how much of a buff it would have to be so it would help in "our vs other melee classes" scaling problem?

Venomia · 10/09/07, 8:02 AM

I guess its the gap pointed out by Sadris in the other FAP thread. If I remeber correct it was something around 200-300 ap for Pillar of Ferocity (which was the one most lacking).

And Malazar, I think that just giving us windfury together with the proposed changes would already go pretty long way. We dont want ALL the stuff that warriors / rogues have. We just want to be atleast slightly competetive if geared and specced properly for it. Maybe tiger's fury change into some haste skill or stacking +dmg buff which doesnt have so retarded use as tiger's fury in its current incarnation.

Vaccine · 10/09/07, 8:07 AM

I still think making Tigers Fury a finisher that increases damage done by x for the next y seconds would be a great way to go. Sort of our equivalent of SnD for dmg instead.