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10/09/07, 8:11 AM
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#1126
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Glass Joe
Night Elf Druid
Frostmourne
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I wonder if blizzard will refund all my strength gems with agility ones now.
As many others have said though, it's very much a bandaid fix, itemisation gaps are so easily fixed with craftables, tokens and the like, and well, enabling windfury/buffing haste for ferals wouldn't hurt anyone either.
Now, where's that newbie I told off for using AP items, gems and enchants...
Last edited by Bloodwood : 10/09/07 at 8:19 AM.
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10/09/07, 8:14 AM
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#1127
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Von Kaiser
Night Elf Druid
Bloodhoof (EU)
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Originally Posted by Vaccine
I still think making Tigers Fury a finisher that increases damage done by x for the next y seconds would be a great way to go. Sort of our equivalent of SnD for dmg instead.
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I agree that some new mechanic there would be welcomed. Every class getting passive haste skill is getting somewhat old and im big fan of new twists and toys in the game.
Finisher that increases all damage done, stacking +dmg debuff (maybe something like Rampage) or hell, even something that would make Rake usable.
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10/09/07, 8:33 AM
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#1128
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Mr. Sandman
Night Elf Druid
Argent Dawn (EU)
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I'd also like to see a change to Predatory Strikes. Either:
a) Not pre-req of HotW.
b) Make it scale (4/8/12% of ap?)
c) Add another component of 7/14/20 FCR to it.
Edit: Strikes not Instincts.
Last edited by Vaccine : 10/09/07 at 8:44 AM.
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10/09/07, 8:43 AM
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#1129
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Von Kaiser
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Originally Posted by Bloodwood
I wonder if blizzard will refund all my strength gems with agility ones now.
As many others have said though, it's very much a bandaid fix, itemisation gaps are so easily fixed with craftables, tokens and the like, and well, enabling windfury/buffing haste for ferals wouldn't hurt anyone either.
Now, where's that newbie I told off for using AP items, gems and enchants...
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Agility was always the better gem choice for dps then strength. It just gets an additional buff. So why do you want a refund?
Regarding Windfury: There you have the problem that you need to be aware of bearform. Because getting windfury in bearform would imho make druids really overpowered in terms of threat generation.
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10/09/07, 8:45 AM
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#1130
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Mr. Sandman
Night Elf Druid
Argent Dawn (EU)
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Originally Posted by SS_Keera
Agility was always the better gem choice for dps then strength. It just gets an additional buff. So why do you want a refund?
Regarding Windfury: There you have the problem that you need to be aware of bearform. Because getting windfury in bearform would imho make druids really overpowered in terms of threat generation.
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Don't really think its an issue to buff it to only affect cat form.
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10/09/07, 9:28 AM
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#1131
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Don Flamenco
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Originally Posted by SS_Keera
Agility was always the better gem choice for dps then strength. It just gets an additional buff. So why do you want a refund?
Regarding Windfury: There you have the problem that you need to be aware of bearform. Because getting windfury in bearform would imho make druids really overpowered in terms of threat generation.
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Druids already do pretty incredible threat gen, so a little more won't really change much. Besides, you' be crazy to use WF over Agi totem for a bear tank imo. I really don't think it would change much in terms of tanking right now.
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10/09/07, 9:35 AM
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#1132
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Von Kaiser
Night Elf Druid
Bloodhoof (EU)
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Well, we actually have two abilities which are pretty much useless in any given scenario - Rake and Tiger's Fury. It would be really nice if they could buff one to be somewhat worth PvE ability (tiger's fury as a finisher with various effects or even a normal hit which scales for example from AP - 20% could be decent - and gives some party wide buff which reduces aggro or something similar) and the other one to slightly improve pure feral presence in higher arena brackets. Something like Rake - xy energy - Hits the enemy for [laughable damage] and reduces all healing DONE by the target by 25%.
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10/09/07, 10:22 AM
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#1133
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Von Kaiser
Night Elf Druid
Tarren Mill (EU)
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Originally Posted by mandella
Have any actually done the math considering FAP buff on items? I mean how much of a buff it would have to be so it would help in "our vs other melee classes" scaling problem?
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In order to address the scaling issues via the FAP items, they wouldn't need to scale like 2Hs instead of 1Hs - they'd need to scale as 8Hs, if you'll pardon me my little joke.
Using e.g. Tangedyn's simulator with a 9% hit, 45% crit setup, you get a theoretical increase in the range of 190 dps per 1000 extra AP above 3000 AP when using a 4-rip cycle (200dps if you use a 50% crit rate).
There's no way that the feral scaling issues in endgame PvE, which are caused primarily by the presence of haste effects and the druid's generally inefficient way of transforming raw AP into actual damage, can be satisfactorily addressed via added FAP on the weapons without all other classes going into a collective meltdown over Feral weapons suddenly having something in the range of three times their old amount of FAP on them and providing, in PvP, the sort of damage that others produce only when hasted in raid-buffed conditions in PvE.
It would be funny to read in patch notes that "scaling for Feral weapons has been changed to address end-game scaling issues via the weapon; [Pillar of Ferocity] will now provide 2478 FAP instead of 826 FAP" - but it is not going to happen. 
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10/09/07, 10:32 AM
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#1134
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Piston Honda
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I've always wanted rake to be a very light snare, or perhaps a talent (which could rep pred. strikes) that snares an enemy that has a bleed effect on it. I do mean light, akin to curse of exhaustion. We're just the only melee class right now with no way to slow an enemy, and that's why the catform range issue has always been so bad.
Pipe dreams, I know.
I like this change to HOTW a lot, it just opens up blizz's options when they itemize now. They can now itemize for feral properly because no one is going to whine when a pair of pants with a large amount of AP drop like they would have if a pair of pants with all STR dropped. "Feral Loot" doesn't have to be a joke anymore. It just remains to be seen in Sunwell and Zul'aman if their talent team and their item team have actually talked about this... Which is a whole 'nother kettle of fish.
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10/09/07, 11:30 AM
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#1135
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Great Tiger
Altpatch
Tauren Druid
No WoW Account
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Some ideas for revising Rake:
o make the bleed stackable and rollable
o remove the bleed and add
- stacking mob -haste debuff (like TC)
- stacking mob armor pen
- stacking party haste buff
- mob debuff increasing damage from spells
o renew all bleed effects on the mob
Last edited by Blackpatch : 10/09/07 at 11:37 AM.
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10/09/07, 11:33 AM
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#1136
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Soda Popinski
Falk
Night Elf Druid
No WoW Account
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Originally Posted by Bloodwood
I wonder if blizzard will refund all my strength gems with agility ones now.
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I was a stubborn ass and socketed stuff with Strength just to see how high rips could go. Not a bright idea money-wise. Agility has always been more bang for the buck, long before the change, even after factoring in the slight randomness crit interactions have over the 'safer' damage increase that Strength gives.
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Now, where's that newbie I told off for using AP items, gems and enchants...
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And AP will still be inferior to Strength, due to Kings and SotF. The catch is it's now not -that- much more so that alternate (read: rogue) itemization is a total waste.
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10/09/07, 11:36 AM
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#1137
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Soda Popinski
Falk
Night Elf Druid
No WoW Account
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Originally Posted by Deliverance
In order to address the scaling issues via the FAP items, they wouldn't need to scale like 2Hs instead of 1Hs - they'd need to scale as 8Hs, if you'll pardon me my little joke.
Using e.g. Tangedyn's simulator with a 9% hit, 45% crit setup, you get a theoretical increase in the range of 190 dps per 1000 extra AP above 3000 AP when using a 4-rip cycle (200dps if you use a 50% crit rate).
There's no way that the feral scaling issues in endgame PvE, which are caused primarily by the presence of haste effects and the druid's generally inefficient way of transforming raw AP into actual damage, can be satisfactorily addressed via added FAP on the weapons without all other classes going into a collective meltdown over Feral weapons suddenly having something in the range of three times their old amount of FAP on them and providing, in PvP, the sort of damage that others produce only when hasted in raid-buffed conditions in PvE.
It would be funny to read in patch notes that "scaling for Feral weapons has been changed to address end-game scaling issues via the weapon; [Pillar of Ferocity] will now provide 2478 FAP instead of 826 FAP" - but it is not going to happen. 
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An even wilder idea; make Haste affect energy regeneration? :U Rogue DPS would go off the charts, though.
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10/09/07, 12:22 PM
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#1138
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King Hippo
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We could brainstorm what they'll actually do all day; but if they could make it so our DPS cycle would be "rip->mangle->rake->shred to 4/5, TF if you're at full CP and waiting for your last Rip to finish ticking" would add to feral DPS without making it too easy, regardless of the mechanic they use to improve them.
Last edited by Allev : 10/09/07 at 12:37 PM.
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10/09/07, 1:06 PM
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#1139
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Glass Joe
Night Elf Druid
Silvermoon (EU)
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This is most likely precisely the kind of post that is frowned upon in these forums - a "help me" kind of post - but I've been trying to wrap my brain around the math for several days now and it doesn't appear to be happening.
I recently joined, as a trialist, a high-end raiding guild (5/5 MH, 7/9 BT). I'm a feral druid (obviously), specced 0/47/14. The guild I was previously in was at the "stuck on Vashj and Kael'Thas" stage; the new guild no longer really does SSC / TK much, except when a batch of trialists need to be attuned to MH / BT.
In all my previous raiding at 70, I have been mostly employed as a tank, only functioning as added DPS in the "too many tanks for this encounter" situation. Because of this, I've been mostly focusing on improving my tanking gear first and foremost, with my DPS gear as a second priority. (I've also been ridiculously unlucky with droprate, but that's neither here nor there.)
However, in this new guild I have so far been mostly used as DPS. I suspect this is simply because I undergear the encounters, and an undergeared tank is more dangerous in a raid situation than an undergeared DPS. I don't know whether (assuming I pass the trial) they want me to function primarily as a tank, as a DPS, or even both. They're fine with the fact that I'm undergeared (I've been pretty literally told "it's fine, you'll get geared up fast").
The issue, for me, is simple. I know a good chunk of the issues with my current DPS output are simply that I'm undergeared. However, I would still like to know that I'm doing the best I can, under the circumstances and until I get better equipment. Therefore, I have a few questions.
Empirical evidence, as well as posts on this forum, suggest that the basic optimal DPS cycle for a feral druid is Mangle, then Shred until 5CP, then Rip - rinse and repeat.
- Some sources suggest waiting until one has 81+ energy before applying Rip and resuming the cycle. I'm assuming this is so the Mangle debuff won't fall off while Rip is ticking.
However, assuming that Mangle is indeed in danger of expiring, I was wondering what would be the best course of action in terms of increasing both my DPS and the raid's (assuming the raid's using bleeds and therefore would also get buffed by Mangle being always up) - reapply Mangle immediately when it expires (whether I have 81 energy or not, whether I have applied Rip or not), therefore wasting the combo point, or waiting anyway? Does it even make any significant difference?
- Following on from the above: should I get lucky with crits and build up 5CP when the previous Rip is still ticking, what loses me more damage - to wait until Rip has ticked off to resume specials, or to keep performing them in the meantime (while ensuring I have enough energy to Rip as soon as it ticks off)?
- And following from the above: I've heard some people mention that if your first Mangle and Shred crit, and you find yourself with 4CP from two specials, it's better in terms of sustained DPS to Rip immediately rather than waste a CP should the third special also crit. Is this correct? It sounds silly to me, but I'm terrible at maths and I would not want to be doing something wrong simply because it "sounds silly".
- I've been, off and on, using Maim as a finisher (no matter on how many CP) on mobs that are of the caster type (or otherwise have channelled abilities such as Whirlwind), for the sake of the interrupt and reducing overall damage taken by the raid. This often implies watching my energy bar and only performing Mangle / Shred when I have enough energy for that plus Maim (or when it's incoming in the next energy tick).
Exactly how badly am I gimping my damage by doing this? Should I just not care about energy (and therefore only have the chance to interrupt when an energy tick happens when the mob is casting)? Should I not care about interrupting at all and let other people do it instead?
- Ferocious Bite as a finisher (on non-bleeders): I've been waiting on using FB and instead, casting an extra Mangle or Shred even though I have 5CP, if I have a lot more energy than FB takes, because the energy-to-damage conversion rate is so lousy and I figured it was better spent on an extra special, since it does more damage there - CP or not. Recently, though, I've read that on non-bleeders, one should FB immediately on reaching 5CP (no matter what) and then carry on. This seems to me more of the "oh no, you're wasting CP" silliness, but again - I'm not good at math, so I'm unsure.
Secondly: while I would like to avoid this post sounding like one of the multitude of "please rate my gear" threads that seem to sometimes pollute the official forums, I've been wondering if I could possibly squeeze more DPS out of my current gear, pretty sub-par though it is. (Note: in case the armory decides to not behave, as it apparently is right now - my second trinket is Hourglass of the Unraveller, I use Everbloom Idol in raids, and my chestpiece is Shadowprowler's Chestguard.)
- Unless my calculations are wrong (which is fully possible), I'm barely at the hit cap counting the feral attack skill rating on the Clefthoof Hide Leggings and the two-piece Wastewalker set bonus.
I have Gloves of Dexterous Manipulation, Wastewalker Leggings and Ring of a Thousand Marks in my bank.
Gloves of Dexterous Manipulation, on their own, are an upgrade over Wastewalker Gloves; the issue is I lose more +hit than I can afford to. Originally, I thought of replacing the gloves, replacing Clefthoof Hide Leggings with WastWastewalker Leggings (thus keeping the set bonus) and either using Ring of a Thousand Marks or gems to cover for the missing +hit. The math, though, is doing my head in, and I wouldn't particularly want to go through gear replacing, re-gemming and re-enchanting only to find myself sitting at roughly the same DPS output. So - assuming I lack access to epic gems beyond what drops in Heroics (since the guild, wisely, does not hand them out except for Tier5+ or equivalent items) - what's the best combination of items and gems in those three slots (though I'm also willing to re-gem other items, if it takes that) in terms of DPS output, without shorting myself on +hit? Should I even bother, or should I just wait for gear upgrades?
Or should I just bite the bullet and get myself a Shapeshifter's Signet?
- Furthermore: I've heard many, many good things about the two-piece T4 set bonus in terms of DPS. The problem is simple: I have only two pieces of T4, gloves and legs. They're both enchanted for tanking (15agi on the gloves - which is good for DPS as well, or at least I would reckon it's better than strength - and 40sta 12agi on the legs, which is, well, less good, and which I'm also loath to re-enchant as it was expensive and I would still like to use these legs for tanking as I've nothing better).
The guild doesn't do Gruul or Maghteridon at all, and only does Karazhan rarely and for alts, so unless I luck out with a PUG (ugh), I don't have very many chances of getting other pieces of T4. That, and using the gloves and legs for DPS would hit the same issue as mentioned in point 1 - I'd be shorting myself on +hit (and therefore would need massive re-gemming of other items to make up for that).
I'm just not sure exactly how much two-piece T4 is worth in terms of DPS, and therefore I have no idea what would or would not be worth losing to get it - because my impression is that the potential DPS loss from changing gems to be massively +hit and using the "wrong" kit on the legs might not be worth the potential gain from the set bonus.
(Note that I would have no issue re-enchanting the T4 legs if I was 100% sure the guild wants to use me only for DPS, and I'll never use them for tanking again... but I'm not, and until I am or I get a replacement, I don't think it's worth it.)
- Lastly: could I squeeze more DPS output from my gear by re-gemming or re-enchanting anything? (I find this quite probable, given that I'm fairly clueless about maximizing DPS output as I've never done it before - but I wouldn't really know even where to begin.)
- For that matter - is there a program or website anywhere that would let me "try on" various sets of equipment (including gems / enchants) and see what the results are in terms of DPS output? (Something similar to what Rawr is for tanking item comparisons, in other words.)
And finally: Idol of the Raven Goddess versus Everbloom Idol. Assuming I'm stuck in a melee DPS group (which is typically composed of two rogues, a DPS warrior, an Enhancement shaman, and me): at which point, if any, does the extra crit rating on the whole group outweigh, in terms of raid DPS, the benefit I get from Everbloom?
I have ran searches, but haven't found much - which is why I'm asking. If I somehow missed a relevant thread (or two, or five) in my searching, feel free to throw things at me.
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10/09/07, 1:29 PM
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#1140
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King Hippo
Night Elf Druid
Blackhand
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Ok that was a giant wall of text, firstly :P
For DPS cycle, the keys are:
- Dont Shred if Mangle isnt up
- Never let your energy tick above 100 (i.e., dont lose energy ticks)
- Never overwrite a rip that is ticking
- Aim for 4 CP rips. The scaling doesnt change between 4 and 5 CP and you lose more wasting a combo point than the static gain from going to 5 CP from 4.
Ideal situations would be at >70 Energy you Rip then immediately Mangle. This gets you full uptime on Rip with mangle. That said, if your crit rate isnt super high you may find mangle dropping off before you're back in position to rip again. Thats fine, the main thing you need to remember is that you dont shred with no mangle up. Also unless you're going over 100 energy, you're not wasting energy if you wait (minus T4 procs). As such if you do need to re-apply mangle in the middle of a cycle (and there's no rip running) wait until you have some energy built up. It will allow for better shred:mangle ratio.
example: you're at 40 energy. You could mangle immediately but need to wait 6 seconds before you can shred. Half of the mangle debuff would be used up for no real reason. If you instead waited 2 energy ticks to be at 80 energy then mangled, you'd be able to shred within 2 seconds making the most out of your mangle debuff. Some caveats here: if there's a ton of raid dps using bleeds it may be better to keep mangle up. Similarly if you're the "mangle bot" for another, better geared druid, its probably better to make sure mangle is always up.
Next gear:
The Druid Wiki ยป ToskksDPSGearMethod
Thats probably the easiest to use calculator for feral dps. While the absolute numbers may not be perfectly accurate, the relative values are quite good. And thats all you're concerned about. This will let you value stats and determine which pieces are ideal for your setup. On a quick glance at your Armory, you need to get a RED for your helm and the sockets to use it. Otherwise sockets should almost always be 8 agi gems aside from the rare cases where an off color gems gives a socket bonus of at least 3 agi or 4 str. 2 piece T4 will give a massive AP equivalent upgrade probably moreso than using the "better" pieces in those slots. Again the calculator linked above gives its value too.
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