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Old 06/08/07, 8:36 AM   #121
Daboran
King Hippo
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Twisting Nether (EU)
We run nearly every raid with 2 Ferals and 1 dps Warrior plus 1 or 2 main tanks

We are probably melee-heavy, but it's simply stupid to ignore the fact that you get a very good offtank along with top10 dps with the same raid place. On top of that you get innervates and more combat rez availability. It also makes trash insanely easy to have that many ofttank-capable classes at your disposal.

The important thing here is, no Druid should be so closed minded as to insist on a dps-only role - you can never justify a place on those grounds alone unless your melee truly suck.

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Old 06/08/07, 9:05 AM   #122
Morghus
Von Kaiser
 
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Night Elf Druid
 
Argent Dawn (EU)
Originally Posted by aurae View Post
Out of curiosity, how many raidgroups are actually letting cats DPS? Are there any cats here who have a fulltime DPS role? Of those who are part offtank/part DPS, what is your proportion of DPSing to offtanking?
I'm dps 95% of the time or so, abouts. I OT on trash and encounters like Magtheridon where there are minor mobs to kill before the main target. Largely the same as Daboran, we run 2 ferals and 2-4 warriors in different roles, and I can only chime in agreement with the rest he says. Unless you do stupidly high dps, and is completely irreplacable as damage, you're of the most benefit to a raid as an OT every now and then. I can tank decently in dps-gear, and for encounters like Magtheridon, where killing the first mobs really quickly is extremely good, my threath-output is a huge boon.

The important thing here is, no Druid should be so closed minded as to insist on a dps-only role - you can never justify a place on those grounds alone unless your melee truly suck.
It should be added that if you're that closeminded I don't think you have much to do in a raid, you'll be more of a liability than a bonus in that people will expect more than dps from you, and you're not delivering it.

Last edited by Morghus : 06/08/07 at 9:10 AM. Reason: Double-post, someone please remove the first post. Edit 2: Clarification

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Old 06/08/07, 11:16 AM   #123
aurae
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Archimonde
Originally Posted by Daboran View Post
The important thing here is, no Druid should be so closed minded as to insist on a dps-only role - you can never justify a place on those grounds alone unless your melee truly suck.
At least up to the karazhan level, my dmg meters are showing that my feral druid, when allowed to focus on DPS, is very capable of performing very well -- normally #1-#2 in karazhan, even though kara probably knocks off quite a bit of druid DPS due to all the bleed-immune mobs. No, our melee do not suck, because I get similar results when pseudo-PUGing with (well-geared) friends from other guilds in heroics.

No druid should "insist" on a DPS role, I agree that's just fantasy. But at least up to & including kara, I can't see why anyone shouldn't take a feral druid in a mainly DPS+utility role, akin to a shadow priest. For SSC and above, well, I'm all ears.

Even if the DPS may be a few percent lower than an equivalent rogue, the overall benefit of losing 1 rogue and gaining LOTP +crit and group heals, an innervate, battle rez and clutch heals makes it a no brainer. Feral druids are like the shadow priests of melee groups to me, you always want at least 1.

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Old 06/08/07, 8:23 PM   #124
Boevis
Bald Bull
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Lightbringer
Originally Posted by Daboran View Post
We run nearly every raid with 2 Ferals and 1 dps Warrior plus 1 or 2 main tanks

We are probably melee-heavy, but it's simply stupid to ignore the fact that you get a very good offtank along with top10 dps with the same raid place. On top of that you get innervates and more combat rez availability. It also makes trash insanely easy to have that many ofttank-capable classes at your disposal.

The important thing here is, no Druid should be so closed minded as to insist on a dps-only role - you can never justify a place on those grounds alone unless your melee truly suck.
Ditto.

Our average 25 has a MT Prot warrior, OT Prot Warrior, OT Druid (me), another feral, 1-2 more warriors, and 2-3 rogues. Where we currently are, only Outdoor Bosses, Gruul (and a few kara bosses) put a druid in a fulltime DPS role, we do well enough to justify our spot as pure DPS when it happens (Pure DPS meaning we aren't tanking anything, we still innervate/brez when it's needed) iLotP has saved many a life (our paladins are cowards and don't judge light 90% of the time >.<)

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Old 06/09/07, 9:48 PM   #125
Benita
Don Flamenco
 
Tauren Druid
 
Dentarg (EU)
Anyone did the math on Ashtongue Talisman of Equilibrium (40% chance to grant 140str for 8sec on mangle) for cat dps?
Im aware its a multiuse trinket, just want to know what kind of dps setback id take if i use it instead of the Crystalforged Trinket.

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Old 06/10/07, 2:26 AM   #126
Kiryojo
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Antonidas
Originally Posted by Benita View Post
Anyone did the math on Ashtongue Talisman of Equilibrium (40% chance to grant 140str for 8sec on mangle) for cat dps?
Im aware its a multiuse trinket, just want to know what kind of dps setback id take if i use it instead of the Crystalforged Trinket.
Just half assing some math:

I use mangle every 12 seconds at most, unless for some reason positioning is screwed up, while dpsing for the most part. We generally run 2 feral druids for dps/offtanking, and I'm usually the mangle-bitch.

So, assuming I use it every 12 seconds, it will proc 4 out of 10 uses, or an uptime of 32 seconds out of 120 (since I would pretty much never use mangle while the debuff is still up).

32 comes from it being 8 seconds duration, and it would be up 4 out of 10 mangles. So, on average, it gives a total of (32/120) * 140 str, or about 37.3 str, which is 98.56 attack power with Kings+HOTW. Bloodlust brooch, when used on every cooldown, is 118.3 attack power. (72 + 278/6).

Now, for Crystalforged. Since +weapon damage doesn't effect rip (I've tested it), its not quite worth 14 attack power per point of damage, the earlier estimates of 11.5 sound very reasonable (since Rip is usually somewhere around 30% of my damage, last I checked). So, 7*11.5 = 80.5 atk power. Additionally, the use ability has a one minute CD, so its attack power bonus is worth about (216/6) or 36, bringing the total to 116.5.

Summary: In my opinion, that trinket is crap for raiding, where Mangle isn't used very often if you are attemping to maintain an efficient DPS cycle.

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Old 06/10/07, 4:52 AM   #127
dukes
Bald Bull
 
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Dukes
Tauren Druid
 
No WoW Account (EU)
Originally Posted by Kiryojo View Post
Just half assing some math:
You need to take into account that you can get 2 rips at most off with Bloodlust Brooch, 2 off at most with the Crystalforged, but 4 off on average with the Ashtongue. 37.3 str equates to 101.4 AP from my calcs (*1.2*1.1*1.03 (hotw/bok/sotf)). Assuming the info on the druid wiki is right (4% of AP per tick on rip) then you end up with 140*1.2(hotw)*1.03(sotf)*1.1(bok)*2(ap)*1.3(mangle)*1.1(naturalist)*.24(contribution) = 130.65 extra damage per rip. The total AP bonus is somewhere around that with bloodlust brooch active, so its equivalent to ~230 damage extra, or ~2dps extra from rip because of this. I think bloodlust brooch still works out better tbh.

If you're looking at it as a threat trinket for Bear form, it works out as:
.4*20 * 8 = 64 seconds average, although sometimes it will refresh and you'll lose out on 2 seconds worth per proc (which will happen ~40% of the time I would assume). 8*.4 = 3.2 times it will do this out of the 8 procs, so you end up with losing ~6 seconds of uptime (58 seconds total time left).
48.3% is the uptime, so 140*1.1*1.03*2*.483 = ~153 AP total.

Hopefully I haven't horribly screwed up the maths.

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Old 06/10/07, 5:50 AM   #128
Prodigy
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Druid
 
Stormrage
hi
well ive read most of the posts in this thread and i got a noob question for yall

just from lookin at my armory profile right now im sittin at 371str, 368 agi with 1016 ap, 107 hit rating, and 18.81% crit but something that doesnt seem right is my damage which is 280-372 which is like super low compared to most of the druids that posted here

any idea why my damage is so low considerin the fact that my stats are decent and so is my gear

thanks in advance for your help

Last edited by Prodigy : 06/10/07 at 3:23 PM.

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Old 06/10/07, 6:06 AM   #129
Lavode
Bald Bull
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Earthen Ring (EU)
you mean character sheet damage? character sheet damage is not dps. dps is the damage you actually do per second

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Old 06/10/07, 7:03 AM   #130
Benita
Don Flamenco
 
Tauren Druid
 
Dentarg (EU)
Originally Posted by kiryojo
Summary: In my opinion, that trinket is crap for raiding, where Mangle isn't used very often if you are attemping to maintain an efficient DPS cycle.
Thanks for the math kiroyo and dukes. Going a bit OT here, but the main benifit of that trinket (aswell as living root) is that you actually gain a bonus for all forms. I found myself switching out to help healing heavy phases more often than it wouldve been ever necessary in vanilla wow.
Having multiuse trinkets to use is so unique even amongst hybrids that its benefits can way heavy in alot of encounters.

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Old 06/10/07, 8:19 AM   #131
dukes
Bald Bull
 
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Dukes
Tauren Druid
 
No WoW Account (EU)
Originally Posted by Benita View Post
Thanks for the math kiroyo and dukes. Going a bit OT here, but the main benifit of that trinket (aswell as living root) is that you actually gain a bonus for all forms. I found myself switching out to help healing heavy phases more often than it wouldve been ever necessary in vanilla wow.
Having multiuse trinkets to use is so unique even amongst hybrids that its benefits can way heavy in alot of encounters.
Indeed, I'd probably use it on some encounters regardless of if it's less dps overall if you micro Bloodlust Brooch perfectly. The benefits of having passive trinkets over active ones when you're watching the rest of the raid and not concentrating purely on DPS are great. Having it also have benefits in other forms is also a very nice bonus.

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Old 06/11/07, 9:49 AM   #132
Umph
Soda Popinski
 
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Umph
Tauren Druid
 
No WoW Account
Pretty simple question: I've picked up some tier 5 so I'm able to switch my Malorne hat over to my DPS set so I can use the 2pc bonus whilst DPSing. However I'm unsure about the value of the proc, I'm losing 50 attack power to do so (less in the patch when that crit rating on the gloves is switched over to agility) and I don't know how the 50 attack power stacks up against the 4% proc rate of the 2pc.

At the moment I think that the proc beats the 50 attack power, but I thought I'd get another opinion or two before I spend the money on the enchant/gems. I also gain 2.2% crit in the process.

Edit: While we're at it, I'm currently running around with 8.12% hit, can I afford to lose some?

Last edited by Umph : 06/11/07 at 10:11 AM.

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Old 06/11/07, 10:28 AM   #133
Feorthas
King Hippo
 
Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Blackrock
Originally Posted by Umph View Post
While we're at it, I'm currently running around with 8.12% hit, can I afford to lose some?
Can't answer the Malorne question but I can do this one:

Do you have any +Feral skill? If so, you're almost perfectly at the 8.6 +hit cap (based on the few items that give it); otherwise, you need a bit more. With my current DPS set, I end up with some +8.5X% hit and need between 5 and 8 more hit rating to cap out; even with a fraction of a percent of hit missing from my gear, it continually reports as being the most valuable stat to me when I play with my spreadsheet.

I am not your personal Frost Deathknight knowledge base. If you have a simple question, ask in the simple questions thread; if you have a more esoteric, specific, or complicated question, ask in the spec-appropriate thread.

My PM, WoWmail, and, especially, chat boxes are NOT the appropriate places for these questions.

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Old 06/11/07, 10:41 AM   #134
Tyvi
Never, Mags. Never!
 
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Human Death Knight
 
Turalyon (EU)
Originally Posted by Umph View Post
Pretty simple question: I've picked up some tier 5 so I'm able to switch my Malorne hat over to my DPS set so I can use the 2pc bonus whilst DPSing. However I'm unsure about the value of the proc, I'm losing 50 attack power to do so (less in the patch when that crit rating on the gloves is switched over to agility) and I don't know how the 50 attack power stacks up against the 4% proc rate of the 2pc.

At the moment I think that the proc beats the 50 attack power, but I thought I'd get another opinion or two before I spend the money on the enchant/gems. I also gain 2.2% crit in the process.
In short:

Yes, the set bonus is better than 50 AP in a raid setting (probably for solo as well but that is mostly irrelevant I think).

Here is how I calculated it, it's not as theoretical as it can be but it's nice and practical:

4% chance on hit to gain 20 Energy = Nearly half a shred. Assuming your Shred hits for 1.2k on average (that is probably even a low number) and a proc every 25 hits on average means 600 damage every 20 seconds from the proc. That is 30 DPS.

55 AP (might as well include Unleashed Rage in a raid setting) is giving you 55/14*1.1 (Naturalist)*1.40 (assumed 40% crit rate) = 6 DPS on your auto attack.

55 AP also adds (6 DPS*2.25 (Shred Bonus)*1.3 (Mangle Debuff)*1.4 (assumed 40% Crit rate))/2 = 12.3 DPS

To be honest, I am not 100% confident in my math but it looks logical enough to me. I am all ears for corrections though.

Originally Posted by Umph
Edit: While we're at it, I'm currently running around with 8.12% hit, can I afford to lose some?
The common consensus is that you need 8.6% Hit to never miss against a level 73 mob. But truth to be told, I never raided with that much. I only have 5.6% Hit myself but also +10 Feral Skill which is quite a huge buff to your Hit in itself. But unless you have +Feral Skill, you should try to get up to 8.6% Hit.

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Old 06/11/07, 12:18 PM   #135
Zhoe
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Alleria
I intend on getting my 4pc t5 for tanking anyway, but is the t4 2pc bonus better dps-wise than the 4pc t5?

In reply to the Ashtongue trinket, I don't Rejuv so much when I'm spot healing out of form with 2pc t5. Usuaully I'll just lean on my free Regrowth and max-rank HT. From that point of view, I'd lean towards using a strict DPS trinket in that spot.

This point is purely speculative on my part, but I've noticed that as my gear quality has increased, my white damage has been slowly approaching 35% of my DPS. Forgive my ignorance on Rogues, but I hear one of their specs (maybe it was swords?) does around 40% white damage and they love Dragonspine. So my theory is that as our own gear quality improves, the benefits from haste scales at a non-linear rate. Again, that is pure theory and I have no data to support it, but I think its interesting enough to try to analyze.

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