Ziedrich- I have a question about how you repentance heal. The times that our MT dies is when he is at half hp or lower when repentance hits, I immediately start HL11 when sacrifice breaks my stun, with light's grace up, and he dies regardless in the 2 seconds it takes to cast the heal. How can I keep him up in this situation? Only faster heals I have are FoL and, holy shock. We're discussing putting all HoTs are up on the tank pre-repentance, as well as a PW: Shield. I think that will solve the issue, maybe.
HoTs yes, PW:S no. Shield is too mana inefficient and you don't know when the repentance is going to hit. I suppose your spriest is dpsing, so depending on mana it might be worth helping buffer, but it wouldn't be my first suggestion.
If your warrior is getting bursted from 50% to 0 in 2 seconds then IMO it's an issue in gearing. How much HP does your warrior run with? I just don't see the chance of taking 1 CB after a repentance being life threatening. Repentance does weird things sometimes and that might mean that maiden runs away from the tank so that he's got his back facing her for her first attack on him. If the tank can die in 2 seconds with the threat of crushes, then you'll have problems even with a tank with improved shield block.
Still, if you're having trouble with maiden but can get past curator then something else is wrong. Are your healers reacting to health defeceit, or are they queueing/cancelling heals? On the other hand, are they spam healing and overhealing and wasting mana? Do they have sufficient gear? Does your raid have sufficient HP? Is holy fire DoT staying on your DPS too long causing your healers to spend too much time or mana healing? I don't remember how hard maiden hits, but I know I can take a couple hits in my healing gear without going down, as sometimes the MT doesn't take a consecration hit to break out right away.
Repentance goes off, tank is at half hp, I start HL11 with light's grace, tank dies in the 2 seconds it takes to cast the heal. The druid definitely tries to help, but he has to run out of the repentance before he can start a heal, and his healing touch is 3.0 and NS isn't necessarily up. That seems to be the issue, at least on the majority of the wipes.
That shouldnt be happening tho, you have a timer warning when repentance is likely, just keep the Mt topped up to 80%+ after that point. the issues is your tank going in low.
Are your healers in your shadow priest group? Healer mana > caster mana/melee healing. Especially for you if you've had to pop LoH early, getting 8% of the shadowpriest's damage as mana back is huge.
Also, don't have the shaman dps if you're having mana issues. Druid shouldn't need to regrowth the tank, but rejuv should always always always be up.
and ... your tank is taking 4k+ regular melee hits from Maiden? I think that there is the problem, your tank is squishy (hell, in healing plate (10k armor) Maiden hits me for 4k or so. Now if he got crit, he needs 490 def, if he got crushed he needs Imp. Shield Block.
edit: if your healers are running oom with liberal abuse of SMP's, your DPS needs to step it up a little. get KTM, install it, and tell anyone who's slacking at 40% or less of the MT's threat to kick it up a notch. If everyone's sitting just under the MT's threat and your healers are running oom, the fight is taking too long, your tank needs to kick up the threat gen.
(on the topic of KTM, this is a fight where you don't want to sit in the 10% over-threat buffer, because when repentance breaks she completely re-evaluates her aggro list. MT should always be top of KTM for this fight)
Yes, if your tank is taking 4k hits something is wrong. You need more gear on your tank, and if that doesn't cut it then yeah, you'll need imp shield block. I just can't get how you can heal through curator, but not maiden.
Ensure your tank has 490 defense, 11k+ hp unbuffed, is using shield block every cooldown. If this is the case and he's still going 50%-0 in 2 seconds, then he's going to have to respec.
I just don't think that it's necessary, not for maiden.
Prince, yeah, it's going to be nasty without imp shield block. But maiden? Naw, you should be able to do it.
Thelyna- I don't know how we could recover from using LoH early, even with mana pots. One time we had maiden at 30% and I was completely OOM, we simply died. I can't imagine if I'm OOM at the beginning. The shadowpriest dispels half the room. The other healers are the druid and the shaman, and the shaman I believe also contributes to dps, while topping off the raid
Actually I am not dpsing on Maiden at all other than a searing totem, which costs 1 GCD and a trivial amount of mana. I'm in full healing gear and basically spot healing the raid, except for pre-repentance, when the druid goes into the consecration (during that period I spam LHW on the tank).
As far as using hots on the tank, IMO he should keep rejuv and lifebloom up, but not waste the mana for regrowth. Also our druid is currently using HT7 to top off the raid, and I told him that I'd handle the raid if he just throws a lifebloom (low mana, instant cast) on people that get hurt. HT7 is a lot of cast time to be using on people other than the tank, IMO.
I think I said that above, regrowth isn't worth it in terms of mana cost.
And yeah given that healing layout I'd suggest druid HT/HoT tank, lifebloom for holy fire hits, you should be spot healing with HW/LHW (and maybe the occasional CH if your melee need it - but bear in mind that (I'm 99% sure) people in Holy Ground can't get Holy Fire, so they don't always have to be 6k+). The Paladin should be keeping grace up on himself and dispelling, MT healing otherwise (raid healing if you're oom/can't keep up).
ehm just a little thing, you talk about paladin and spriest each dispelling half the room. In my experience if you have a shaman he can usually stop all holy fires on his group with grounding totem, we have to get pretty unlucky to get a holy fire in a group with a shaman. While we usually have a dispeller in each group, they usually just dps/heal, and if someone actually gets hit by holy fire he usually dies because we're not paying attention at it and they're standing out of los but that doesn't happen very often.
Sounds indeed like the tank is too squishy. The maiden doesn't hit that hard. Last week we had a resto shaman stepping into the consecration in order to break the repentance which kept me pretty much in a good shape. The whole fight was rather anticlimactic after Moroes somehow I agree though that speccing prot makes a certain difference. Perhaps even a hybrid tank might be here a solution (grab shieldblock, defiance and last stand).
As a 31/30/0 Warrior (decently well geared, third best in the guild after our MT and feral druid OT), I tried tanking Maiden about two weeks ago.
No Imp Shield Block hurts. It really does. You just can't push crushing off the table without that extra chance to block. Every time I died, it was to a crushing after a successful block. Imp Shield Block would have prevented all of those.
We're in the process of moving our raid schedule to Tue/Wed/Thurs (Kara/Kara/Gruul+Mag) and this allows a bunch of us to respec to PvE during the week and then respec back to PvP. 100g a week is not that bad anymore, since you can now farm that much in about an hour. I view it as an investment -- it saves us time and money (repair bills). There's really no reason not to if you set up your raiding schedule right.
Thelyna - Yeah, you did mention Regrowth. I only mention it because I had that same conversation with our druid a couple days ago - he was thinking he should start regrowth on the tank. I told him I thought it was too mana inefficient and not worth it (as in, I agree with you).
Gabnakh - I am using grounding totem, and it is blocking a lot of holy fires.
Alcaras - cleaning up the raid schedule is part of the problem. We are a very casual, entirely friends & family guild. We have no set raid or pvp times, and everyone has stuff outside of WoW going on. We have two Kara groups and raid whenever we have 10 on. At other times we play Arena or heroics.
i would recommend putting your shadow priest inside consecration range so he comes out of repentance. With vampiric embrace he shouldn't even notice the damage. Also, I have found that we don't have mana issues here, so the shadowpriest goes in the melee group to counter the consecration damage. When consecration clears repentance, the Shadow Priest can PW:S the tank and dispell a healer; your Blessing of Sacrifice paladin should dispell another healer before healing. On the other hand if your tank is dying in less than 3 seconds, you do need better gear on him.
Most of it's been covered. Tank 'zerker rages the repentance (this prevents him from taking the initial 2k holy damage hit) and goes into it with full health with HoTs up. One healer breaks repentance (BoSacrifice or stepping into the consecration and then out again) and chains heals to see the tank through. If something goes wrong and the tanks isn't topped off then he uses a panic button (healthstone, potion, last stand, shield wall) to survive.
We've actually done it a couple times grouping everyone on one side of the room (ranged people pair up) and it's worked fine even with just one dispeller. Grounding totems are basically awesome for this encounter.
The tank without imp. shield block may be the difference. When we first hit Maiden she did hit quite hard and crushed harder, and too many crushings is less than healthy.
You only need a prot (or feral) tank for prince and nightbane imo.
For maiden have your pally get BigWigs or Deadly boss mod or EnemyCastBar.. basically something which has a timer for repentance and get him to cast blessing of sacrifice on the tank about 5sec before repentance. If he misses it once he can bubble also. Sacrifice breaks the repentence leaving the pally free to heal.
Other than that 1st group ranged back side of the room, 2nd group ranged front side, spread out so you are 5 yards from the neared person.. 1 cleanser/dispeller each side standing in the middle of the side.
Without imp shield block, make sure the tank is managing his global cooldown and rage so that he has shield block up ASAP as often as possible.
The universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements. Energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest.
Sorry if this is hijacking the thread, but my guild's been having trouble with Maiden, moreso than any other boss in the instance aside from maybe Aran (we've killed everything but Nightbane and Illhoof). The biggest issue is the repentance. We use the blessing of sacrifice method, but what often happens is that our paladin gets out of repentance, and then Maiden immediately goes for the him and kills him in one or two hits, or she'll go for a melee class to the same effect. Has anyone else experienced this, and if so, any ideas on how to avoid this problem?