Howitzer

I've literally been full marks for over 2 years now, and rightfully so. I've PTR tested BM spec and survival post 2.0 without ever considering it for full time hardcore raiding. I was 21/30 back in the day as well.

Having said that, recently I have been wondering quite a bit about the 2.1 patch and the changes it will mean for pets in particular. Avoidance, increased attack speed, the new Hunter's Mark, the changes to Glancing Blows, etc. All this is making me wonder whether or not the BM tree will truly be a viable and top DPS build in 2.1. I'm also bringing this up due to the fact that 25 man raiding hunters are usually, (if at all possible), grouped with a Shadow Priest. If you aren't, get used to running OOM or blowing Fel Mana pots every 2 minutes, (which isn't fun).

Being stuck in a caster group most raids isn't exactly beneficial to anyone but myself. They don't exactly need TSA and I don't exactly want to be grouped with warriors and rogues to give them TSA because then it doesn't benefit my mana problems whatsoever. Going BM with Ferocious Inspiration is actually a reason to keep me in with an SP/Warlock/Mage/Ele Shaman group and maybe even have them request ME to be grouped with them for that 3% to all damage boost.

I've come to the basic conclusion that my damage, (fully buffed, potted, flasked), is never going to exceed or match the long-term dps fights of a warlock, mage, or shadow priest, (I'm talking casters with 1100+ spell damage that are absolute rockstars at their class). I'm not even going to mention how rogues and fury warriors will top the meters again come 2.1...

So what does this leave me with? It basically leaves me with the choice of coming to terms with personal DPS versus group utility. The Survival Tree change will have a nice change to Expose Weakness but guess what? We don't roll with a ton of melee in TBC raids. Its world of rangedcraft from here on out pretty much. So have any of you other long-term raiding hunters had the same thoughts on this as I am? Just curious.

 

Spades

The BM hunter in our guild already outclasses any other spec, so I imagine it will only get stronger.

"Existence has no pattern save what we imagine after staring at it for too long."
-Rorschach, Watchmen

 

Rius

I switched to 41/20/0 from 7/4x/x about a month ago, and have enjoyed higher dps ever since. I can pretty much assure you that 2.1's buffs to BM spec and pet damage/survivability will make the BM tree even more enjoyable.

With the obvious footnote that if the encounter isn't pet friendly (for me, Gruul comes to mind, although that might get easier after the mend pet change), you'll wind up doing less damage than your Marks spec, but not all that much.

 

◊ Oggie

So let me ask an honest (stupid) question: Why are any of your hunters anything BUT BM?

It seems that FI >> TSA, and I certainly can't think of any situation where Silencing SHot is helpful in raids, so why in the world are ANY hunters not BM? I feel like I'm missing something.

 

Howitzer

no joke? If you don't mind could you post his name, etc? I'd like to see his setup / talent configuration. Also, is he outclassing people in 25 man raids? I could see this happening pre 2.1 if you're talking 5 mans or Kara.

 

◊ Eej

Arena.

 

The Iron Colonel

Granted, Marks is good for arenas, but I think this thread pertains to raiding - if nothing else I base that purely on the title.

 

boomix

I would be interested to find out more about this. Even thinking of going BM spec makes me feel dirty, as I've been true Marksman since launch. But anything for better dps to justify the raid slot.

Last night was pessimistic skydive in a foolish narcotic shell

 

Howitzer

Indeed, I'm specifically looking for discussion / feedback on raids. Discount PVP, 5 mans, or Kara, (which I don't consider a real raid because of small group configuration and weaker mobs).

 

Jayde

The BM Hunter (class leader) of our guild tends to either do the same or better damage in raids and 5-mans than MM hunters. I have never seen him significantly out-damaged by the MM Hunters in the guild (all of our Hunters are pretty good players and similarly geared, also) but regularly grabs the top spot himself. This is even considering fights such as Gruul.

His Profile:
http://armory.wow-europe.com/charact...light&n=Polina

I think BM is highly underrated, and I'd imagine the incoming changes will push things even further in its favor.

 

hawkon

pet survivability is the main reason I guess. I'm BM at the moment, and I wanted to spec it earlier, but had no choice but to stay MM since we were working at Gruul at the time. I can only imagine how BM spec was pre lb nerf.

 

Howitzer

Jayde, someone like Polina is a perfect example of a BM hunter that knows wtf they're doing. You can simply tell by looking at his/her armory profile. Thanks.

 

The Iron Colonel

Question regarding Polina (I don't think he/she is reading this thread, but maybe someone else can help): when you've got your bow speed down to 2.1 with SS and quiver, is it better to keep the crit scope or swap for +12 damage?

 

Cheeky

I'm also considering switching from long-time MM to a BM build in 2.1.

1) With Serpent's Swiftness as all-powerful as it is, you can make up for 19 MM talent points (Barrage, Imp. Barrage, Master Marksman, Careful Aim, and Ranged Weapon Specialization) with just 5 points. I've found more and more due to lag/mana I use a auto/special rotation almost exclusively.

2) All of the epic ranged weapons are 2.7+ speed. They are perfect for a auto/special rotation with the 20% haste adjustment. Trying to fit 2 specials between autos is very difficult as MM, and gets impossible with Quick Shots.

Using a spreadsheet and taking everything into account, I see a BM Hunter doing 99% of the damage the MM hunter does - without factoring in the pet at all! Once you add in the extra +80% pet damage you get from the BM talents it's a no-brainer. Ferocious Inspiration is icing on the cake.

Unless Blizzard starts putting +RAP instead of +AP on gear (allowing Master Marksman to scale better), and come up with some way for TSA to scale MM isn't a very good tree. The utility (scatter/silencing) doesn't work in raids and the group buff is mediocre at best. My guild already has a die-hard Survival Hunter, so we have the Expose Weakness DPS-martyr covered.

Cheeky of Havoc

 

Fenrus

I believe the main reason many hunters have an aversion to BM is it requires a great deal of micromanagment and multitasking. In a fight like Gruul, you have to focus on your shot timings while watching your own health, your mana, your position to avoid cave ins, and your pets health and position, not to mention making sure you hit your trinkets/rapid fires every time they're off cooldown, and watch your threatmeter (at least earlier in the fight). If your pet dies early as an MM hunter, it's a bummer as you'll lose something like 20% of your DPS potential, but if your pet dies early as a BM hunter you'll lose more like 30-35% of you DPS potential. So as a BM you really want to make sure your pet doesn't die early. It's one more thing to worry about I guess.

 

Howitzer

Thats a good question, but honestly I think it has to do with the min-max damage on the bow itself as also being a factor in crit scope vs damage. I'd stick with the 28 crit rating myself.

 

BigBlue

You are speaking of BM hunters being way better than other hunters in your guild, but how do they compare to the other dps classes in your guild? I am spec'd 0/31/30 and I have been able to stay at or near the top of the dps meters (against any class mage/lock/rogue etc.) I do have good gear but they do as well. Check my armory profile to see my gear. My guild has killed Gruul and Nightbane so we are not complete noobs. I have tried BM but I just can not keep my pet alive to in the important fights (this may change in 2.1 but I am still not sure it would be better than my spec.) to use his dps or beastial wrath. I am not trying to toot my own horn but I am saying a skilled player can do amazing dps as MM and even more with the hybrid 31/30 spec. My dps has been so good my guild leaders have asked me to try to help the other hunters so they are not always WAY below other dps classes. But really, all you BM guys, where do you compare to the locks/mages/rogues on fights like Gruul? If you have similar gear to them IT IS POSSIBLE to have the same (or even higher /shock) dps. Personally I am tired of the acceptance of hunters being on the bottom of the dps; we can be the best.

 

Madscorl

Be carefull that that comparison isn't made with low quality Marksman Hunters. I could say that my guild's MM hunters far outclass our BM hunters, but that would be because we don't have any BM hunters.

You happen to be missing 9/10th's of the Marksman Tallent tree. TSA is NOT the only reason to go MM, neither is Silencing shot.

I'm just being critical of people who think they have a handle on this argument and try to make points that are far from robust or unbiased. I'm just hoping that discussion will continue off some of the extremely good points made in the last thread.

 

Howitzer

Bigblue, nice post, I agree with you to a certain extent. But lets be honest here, if your casters are seriously geared the fuck out with 1100+ spell damage and 2 years experience under their belt you shouldn't be out dpsing them in 25 man raids. I can do it on trash mobs in SSC and be #1 on the meters with a full MM build, but when it comes time for a boss I'll be very lucky if I'm #5-8 on SWS.

About 31/30, (which this post isn't about), you might want to try 38/23 instead. Your LR talent is only giving you 1.4% crit and 84 RAP or so, but you're losing about 200 RAP in its place in-addition-to losing barrage and 1 pt in imp. barrage. Check my current profile. Cheers.

 

◊ Eej

I am merely responding to the question that was asked. He asked why there are Hunters that are not BM, I responded by saying, "Arena." There are a lot of lazy people (like me) who (used to) raid with PvP specs because they're cheap, lazy and value PvP over PvE.

Plus, BM has always been seen as that spec, where only noobs specced into it. Social stigma, if you will, of being a BM hunter.

 

boomix

I would never use Gruul as good or anywhere decent example of damage meters. I had whole raid install newest SW_Stats, and to nobody's surprise we had different results on east and west. I checked prior to the Gruul kill and afterwards sync was enabled and we all had combat log set to 200yds.

Back to the discussion at hand. BM will scale upwards next patch with removal of glancing blows but hunter's HoT won't be enough to keep pet alive during cave in or any other pet killer ability. And fights where bosses are not outright pet killers but do cause you to send your pet in and out you will suffer the dps loss.

What I am leaning towards is bringing 2 hunters with new EW to the raids and upping number of rogues in the raid to 2-4 and see how that dps scales. A lot of fights should become rogue friendly and EW hunter would be aimed at new raid synergy even more so then now.

By the way, has anyone confirmed that pets are indeed affected by new glancing blows? Knowing Blizzard I wouldn't be surprised if they were not.

Last night was pessimistic skydive in a foolish narcotic shell

 

Breakerone

2.1 will be a good improvement for BM hunters, but seriously, it was not needed to be on top of the dps charts.
I have been an MM up until the new talents came and I immediately switched to BM, because its plain to see that it does more dps in PvE then MM if you are able to manage your pet AND have a healer on your side. Your pet never needs more then a hot, really. I am honestly afraid that 2.1 will make BM more viable for lots of hunters and it might become the dominating build.

You can check my gear, you will see there is not much epic, which is for one reason and that is: blues are better.
I am wearing rouge leather gear and still want the leather shoulder from the chest. Apart from that improvements are rare and come with overproportional effort for negligible gains.
Every epic that I have in my bag comes with more HP and more mana and takes away dps.
I just dont need it. I never die, fully buffed I have enough HP and I dont have a problem with popping 10 or more super mana pots per raid to keep up the dps.

Same goes for the grouping. Having a shadow priest is great for your mana, but its bad for your dps. If you want to be with a spriest, you need to be in the caster group. That in itself is no problem and you might be welcome for your 3% damage buff, but no one helps your dps.

I prefer a group with a warrior, a melee shammy, a feral druid and maybe a rogue for dazing and perfect synergies. Everyone gives and everyone takes (imp mark is much appreciated here). I sure have to pop mana pots, but the buffs of this group push me and the pet so much that I dont want to miss it.

As for your specific question about 25 man raids, let me assure you, there is no difference. With gold you can counter the mana problem and your dps is only about to rise through more pally buffs and judgements. Having 3 pallies eliminates your mana problem altogether, no need for spriests.

 

BigBlue

Thanks, I will check out this spec. As far as 0/31/30 I was comparing it to BM and saying that BM was not the only choice as most post in the thread had seemed to imply. And most of our casters have about 900-1000 + damage... not sure what it is but to everyones shock (including my own at most times) I really have been able to keep up with them.

 

The Iron Colonel