Larisroth

I'm pretty sure it'll work in cat. The only things that don't are consumables and weapon specific effects. Everything else should be fine.

The feral druid is a different beast altogether.

 

Zurgat

if it is indeed 1 PPM (like crusader / mongoose)
then it will proc more closer to 1x per 30 seconds.

The way PPM works (correct me if im wrong) is not just always that it doesnt proc more often than that, proc enchants like crusader take a % proc based on your base weapon speed.
so, if you have a 2.5 speed mainhand :

60/2.5 = 24 swings per minute.
1/24*100% = 4,17 % chance for each of your attacks to proc that enchant.
now, instant attacks also use this % chance.
you gain 20 energy per 2 seconds = 600 energy per minute.
40 energy for SS, = 15 instant attacks per minute.
15*4.17% extra to proc that enchant.

i'm curious how this gem triggers though,, mainhand only,, mainhand and offhand, flat %, or actually 1 PPM as stated earlier in this thread.
our guild's main Jewelcrafter can now make this gem, so i'll have a chance to test it soon. (want to stick it in T4 helm, but been passing on it)


At any rate: 240 haste at 6 sec or lets say 10 seconds per 60 seconds uptime due to the ppm mechanic.
calculates to about 40 flat haste rating.
the haste boost would work very nicely with combat potency.


i used to have procwatch... but what addon is currently the regular "proc testing" tool ?

 

Kabuto

If the basic idea from earlier is to be followed:

The gem gives 240 haste rating over 6secs.
This has been recorded rate of 1 proc per minute.
Assume your auto attack dps is 300.
240 haste is about 22%.

300*1.22 = 366.
66dps boost over 6s.
396 extra damage every minute.

After reading the original post I did some testing of Relentless on my hunter.
No other procs or effects were triggered and my auto shot dps was made to be as close to 300 as I could using blizzards tooltip.

Auto attacking a Blasted Lands mob for some considerable time yielded +70 damage to low end crits and +100 damage to top end crits. An 85 damage average, per crit.
Over a minute, with my poor weapon I will get 24 normal auto attacks.

6 of those attacks will crit (with a 25% crit rate).
So 6*85 = 510
510 extra damage every minute.


It appears that the haste gem is worse currently. For me, anyway.

Additionally, hunters generally do two times the attacks in the same time frame, due to steady shot.
So the real world bonus for me is at least 1020 extra damage per minute.
Surely this beats 6s of haste every minute? Unless your base dps is incredibly high or your crit is low?

Not too convinced either way at the moment but the boost on crits is very visible to see with the Relentless diamond.

 

Zurgat

For hunters i can't say exactly how much damage you'd get bonus from it, but it looks like you didn't factor in "Kill Command" or "go for the throat", for KC it'll be a minor increase since it has a cooldown timer on it. The haste also affects your steadyshot timer i believe. and the total of extra shots will give your pet more energy, thus much more damage.

For rogues however, the extra haste also provides us with bonus energy (Combat Potency)
6 seconds per 60 seconds = 1 second per 10 seconds. extra energy means we get more special attacks, and in turn more procs.

Since it's a PPM proc (1 proc per minute, when doing simple autoattacks), you may have up to 1.5 or 2 procs per minute during actual fighting... i can't give exact calculations, but mongoose is also 1 PPM (suposedly), however it procs a lot more than that.
i can only hope this gem is similar,, and that it can proc from both main and offhand weapons, thus higher hit rating and swordspec might also increase the proc rate.
i'd love to get some testing done soon.

 

Nalisol

You also forgot to factor in your 25% crit rate here (that you assume for the earthstorm diamond). 300 paper doll dps is actually 375 dps after applying crit.
So it's 375*1.22 = 457.5
82.5dps boost over 6s
495 extra damage every minute
On the other hand you also didn't factor in your miss rate, so uh... who knows? =)

Let me rerun you theorycraft numbers at 300 dps (did that include ammo?).
If you deal 300 paper doll dps with a 25% crit rate, then I would expect you to be dealing 150 crit dps and 275 non-crit dps. Earthstorm diamond should increase your crit dps by 1.5% (increases your crit damage from 200% to 203%), so your crit dps should improve from 150 to 152.25 dps.
So 2.25 dps * 60s = 135 extra damage every minute

Now obviously this doesn't match your test results (and testing is what we care about), but from the rough numbers, something is either wrong with the theory or your test since the theory says that Thundering is going to be significantly better.

 

sp00n

If we assume that the 3% crit damage bonus form the tool tip is correct, and you have gained an average of +85 damage out of these 3%, this would mean your average crit would have to had been
1.03*x - x = 85
x = 85/0.03
x = 2833.3

Did your "poor weapon" crit on average for 2833 (I have no idea about autoshot crits for hunters)?
Did you have the same helm equipped, just without the diamond while examing non diamond damage?

Maybe you could post the crit numbers for with and without the diamond, so that we can find out wether the 3% stated in the tooltip is correct.
If possibly, with the only difference being the diamond equipped or not.

 

Noobiisa

I have also theorycrafted and played around with this gem and how good it really is for hunters. I will share what I have found and please feel free to help me out where I lack info on this matter.

As starters the problem with haste for hunters is that if you have a complex shot rotation, it might intefere with it and if you just stick to your normal rotation you will clip your autos and could just aswell left the haste effects as you hardly benefit from it. So the use for haste is restricted for hunters but is very very powerfull if it is planned for or your shot rotation allows it (for example simple rotation like auto-special-auto-special)

I went to Blasted Lands and emptied 5000 arrows out on a Servant. I was BM spec (41/20/0) at the time and I had AoTH on so quick shots could happen. After initial aggro lock from pet and a few FD's inbetween and refreshing mend pet every 5mins or so I had my test data. My weapon was Sunfury bow (2.9 sec by default) so wpn speed was 2.1 after quiver and SS.

The results were as follow:
Shots fired: 5000 (all auto shots)
Procs: 161
Time: 2h43m39s
Hits/Proc: 31.06
Procs/min: 0.98

Which is similiar to findings found before, so PPM is same for melee and range it seems. Now about hidden cooldown, it never what I saw refreshed while still active but it has procced 9secs from each other (shortets one I have noticed) so if there is one, it is not very long.

I have also tested roughly what happens when I use only specials. I just casted arcane at mobs and run and once CD is ready shoot an arcane shot again and I did find a procs with this but cannot conclusivelly say is the same proc rate but I can say it does proc from specials, but I see no reason why the proc rate will differ on normal shots or specials shots.

Now since the facts have been shown, now for some theorycrafting. Seeing the proc is PPM means it is good for hunters cause we boom out alot of shots, almost 1 per sec or even more and my weapon speed was 2.9s. (so higher % chance on proc per shot due to slow weapon, but still able to shoot alot) Which correct me if I am wrong actually means PPM is abit lower than my 1ppm I found cause that was already 38% speed inc from quiver and Serpent Swiftness. Means PPM is more like 0.7PPM actually, cause PPM aint affected by wpn speed inc from talents and gear, only from default wpn speed, as I understand it. (Will respec and not take SS and take quiver out tonight and see what the tested data actually is and post it) But for now I am gonna assume 31hits/proc so that means 3.22% chance on hit to get the Serpent Swiftness buff (what the buff is called from the gem). Was also proven that it procs on specials and gonna assume is the same proc chance and if you fit in atleast 1 special between each auto you effectivelly double the amount of shots you fire in the same time and then you can be under diffrent buffs such as quick shots, Dragonspine trinket buff, heroism, rapid fire, etc. And seeing steady shot atleast gets affected by haste effects and the other specials are fast enough, we will keep on doubling your shots when we compare it with auto's only, only time this wont hold true anymore is once we start to shoot faster with auto shots than GCD.

As a worst case scenario, wpn speed is 2.1 for me with default passive haste effects. Per minute that is 60/2.1 = 28.57 shots, assuming as I said special between each auto, that is 57.1 shots. From 31 hits/proc means 1.84 PPM. The buff lasts 6secs so 6x1.84 11.05 secs up per minute. (18.43% of the time) In that time you pump out shots at rate of 22% more and assuming you dont breach GCD yet means specials get pumped out faster aswell (assume special dmg is 50% of the dmg done). This leads to an overall dps inc of 4.05% as all the dmg done by a hunter is affected by haste if you make sure you dont screw up your rotation. (Atm I found as BM which works nice for me is to use SS-Auto spam and once KC is up get the arcane of and the KC, and then continue to do SS and Auto rotation, cause this is mana efficent and seeing KC dont effect GCD and has same CD as arcane is nice to use them to get it off.)

Main reason I didn't put actuall dps in before this point is that the Meta scales with gear and as your gear improves so will the buff it gives to dps. For example, fully buffed now, I do 1200 dps on a raid boss, say my pet is doing 300 of the 1200 dps means 900 of the dps is mine. 900x4.05 is 36DPS inc and this will only get higher as DPS goes up.

Now correct me if I am wrong and this is where input will be appreciated, but this gem is by far the best meta there is for hunters and similiar calculations has been made and will show that it is the best for melee aswell. Not even taken into consideration you shoot more, so more shots crit, so more focus for pet or more TotH and more EW (But seeing Survival crits more and needs to up crit chance, Relentless Earthstorm will have stronger argument for Survival so I am not gonna say it is the best for survival as yet as I need to test this first), more KC ups, more JoW procs. About Relentless Earthstorm, it is more a fixed dps boost from the 12agi, the 3% more crit dmg will scale abit but not nearly as good, cause in my case if I do 900 dps by myself, 378 DPS of that will be crit dmg (from 35% crit, about 42% of dmg done will be due to added crit value.) and 378*1.03 = 389.4, which is ~11.4dps inc and with the fixed 12.2 agi from Meta agi and BOK. So can safelly say Relentless adds ~13-14dps and is fairly fixed value where as Thundering is 3 times for current gear about and the more your dps goes up the more it will inc your dps as it increase your DPS by a %.

 

Vanadi

The boost on your crit dmg is 3%. The main reason why you probably saw these way higher numbers is because the blasted land mobs have got way lower armor then TBc mobs. As someone already stated for you to get an average of 85 extra dmg on crits your average crit should be nearly 3000. I highly doubt your average crits are nearly 3000. Im not sure what current hunters autoshot crits do, but if they are around 1000-1200 in a raid situation your looking at 30-36 extra dmg per shot. 24 shots a minute, 6 shots a crit with your crit rate gives 180-216 additional damage per minute.

 

Trazhenko

I had one of these cut, but I haven't socketed it yet because I only have 1 blue gem in my damage gear. I'm also not sure if I want to put it in the T4 helm or buy the badge helm (nearly identical). The hat is the only T4 I have, mostly because I passed repeatedly on the lackluster gloves/shoulders before they announced the upgrades. I'd like to get the 2pc T4 bonus, and the pants are really good (if they would just drop). The chest is good too, but I got a Bloodsea Brigand's Vest, so it doesn't look as hot anymore.

I might put the Thundering Skyfire in T4 then buy a badge hat for speed. I really like having a runspeed hat :-/.

 

Kabuto

Sorry about that was a bit sleepy.

"Did your "poor weapon" crit on average for 2833" - No.
"Did you have the same helm equipped, just without the diamond while examing non diamond damage?" - First batch of data was with a 24ap diamond. Second set with the Relentless.

Yeah, I definitely missed out a few factors in that basic run through. However, the bonuses to crit damage are accurate. As stated the huge damage bonus must be attributed to the relative weakness of said mobs in blasted lands.

I discovered this thread after I'd done this basic test and posted just to share the info.
I definitely didn't expect the result I received as Thundering should scale much better with base dps and therefore be the clear winner in theory.

 

• Aldriana

So, I went and tested this for a while last night, and I noticed something interesting:

At no time during testing did a proc ever refresh itself, nor did consecutive procs ever occur less than 40 seconds apart (shortest gap between two procs was 40.5 seconds). Now, admittedly I only had about 35 total procs during my testing, so it's possible I just got unlucky - but it seems to me that there might be a hidden cooldown on the proc of perhaps 30 seconds. Has anyone ever seen a proc refresh or two procs closer together than this?

Anyway, assuming the proc does have a 30 second cooldown on it, I went through and analyzed the proc rate, and found that with two weapons of rather different speeds, the proc rate was about 3% for both. So I'm wondering if this is perhaps a fixed % proc with a hidden cooldown rather than a PPM. Can anyone confirm/deny?

 

◊ Shaker

Post 57 above, 5000 autoshots, .98 ppm, 161 procs.

 

• Aldriana

Ah, missed that somehow. Guess I just got unlucky.

 

sp00n

So if your average crit wasn't 2833, but the bonus damage of 85 is accurate, then something has to be wrong with the 3% damage bonus in the tool tip.
Either that or I missed something in your posting.
You don't have a combatlog for your testings anymore by chance?

 

Zeblök

Gave me (not a combat rogue) on blastedlands mobs:

7,5% optimal upptime and a 1.09% procrate
on 2009 autoswings inc (miss 169, 8,41%.)
With Spiteblade and Searing sunblade (dual mongoose)

Now i have no ide how a dps cyckle would affect this.
Would love some help on that .

In addition, unraveler seams to have the allmoust the same upptime (7,1%) with my (critt 446, 22,20%)

 

Sarj

Alright, posting my data from a little over an hours worth of Blasted Land killing, with Procwatch I'm showing a 0.8 PPM. Not once through the entire amount of time did I have procs come closer together than 39 seconds. Meaning to me that there is a 45 second internal cooldown. For this to be correct that would mean that the cooldown starts as soon as the proc has happened (45-6=39).

The first test I did was 38 minutes and 17 seconds with a Dragonmaw (Mongoose) and a Gladiator's Shanker (Potency). 39 seconds in between the closest procs and 1 minute 56 seconds in between the longest. The average proc was 48 seconds apart.

Second test (have a screenshot for this one) was 18 and a half minutes long using a Malchazeen (no enchant) and a Gladiator's Shanker (Potency).

http://www.imagedump.com/index.cgi?pick=get&tp=502818

Third test (SS of this one as well) 16 minutes 25 seconds with Dragonmaw (Mongoose) and Shanker (Potency). Didn't actually write procs down this time around as they came up but I figured I'd provide another SS for consistency.

http://www.imagedump.com/index.cgi?pick=get&tp=502820

Anyways, what I and Cili (Rogue that also was testing it with me) have come up with is that it is a 45 second internal timer and the procs per minute are 0.8.

(Sorry for the pictures, I couldn't get them to pull up with "Insert Image.")

Edit : I also wanted to note that one of the reasons the person who posted above might have a 1.6 PPM is because he or she was not only showing Gains for the haste. As such it was counting both the gain and fade of the combat log, equaling 0.8 PPM when cut in half.

 

Zeblök

Is that me who gotten 1.6ppm ?
In that case, eh how is ppm calculated, if not #procs/min , i get 0.75procs / min
but it might not be the same

 

River

I tested only the gain, the test string was "gain Skyfire Swiftness" off memory.

Edit: And there was no one around besides my tank who didn't have any haste items.

 

Zurgat

Got procwatch added to favourites. i'll do some testing in the weekend,
autoattacks - offhand only,
autoattacks - main + offhand
autoattacks - main + offhand + SS Spam
autoattacks - main + offhand + SS Spam + Slice and dice.

used the gem at gruul last night, seemed to proc decently enough.

-= Random Ravings - RSS Feed =- Rogue and Hunter stuff here. As well as guides to get you trough your spare time.

 

• Aldriana

So, after seeing my initial test and Sarj's, it seemed to me that the trinket really was acting like it had an internal cooldown. So I decided to do a bit of testing on it; specifically, I parsed an entire night's raiding for TSD procs (specifically, TK trash up to void reaver, 3 pulls of Void Reaver including a kill, and then 6 bosses in Karazhan). In that time, 72 procs occurred, with the following characteristics:

1) No refresh procs at all. The longest continuous period of TSD haste was 6.203 seconds, which is within the range for a single proc.
2) No procs less than 40 sec apart. That is, the shortest period of time from the start of one TSD proc and the start of the next was 40.672 seconds; on 7 different occasions there were procs less than 45 sec apart, but never less than 40.

Statistically speaking, there's just no way that that's anything other than a hidden cooldown of 40 seconds - I can't come up with any other reasonable explanation. I can't explain Noobiisa's results - all I can say is that either he didn't see what he though he saw, or they hotfixed in a hidden cooldown at some point - but I just don't see any other explanation for the results I've seen, other than that there's a 40 sec hidden cooldown.

So, assuming for the moment that it is, in fact, a 40 sec hidden cooldown, what's the proc rate? Well, grabbing the data I took last night and throwing out attacks that occurred within 40 seconds after a proc, I find that with a single 2.6 speed weapon, TSD procced 20 times out of 605 eligible hits, and with a single 1.3 speed weapon it procced 15 times out of 575 eligible hits. Grinding some statistics on this (which I won't bore you with) shows us that the answer is one of two things:

1) It's a 1 PPM trinket with a 40 sec cooldown, or
2) It has a fixed proc rate of ~3% and a 40 sec cooldown.

Unfortunately, both are within statistical bounds, so, alas, no conclusion can be reached. It would require a larger data set to know for sure. But I'm reasonably convinced at this point that it does have a hidden cooldown.

 

LiteSabre

So saying that it is either 1PPM/3% with a 40 second cooldown, does that still leave the gem at better than swift skyfire/relentless earthstorm? The haste-freak in me says yes, but I'm getting kind of skeptical with all the evidence coming in that it isn't quite as good as everyone thought it was.

 

Noobiisa

Did some new tests and with a way faster weapon (Used 2.9 for previous data and today 1.9 green I grabbed from AH), so my effective auto speed was 1.2 for this.

Shots fired: 2025
Procs: 34
Time: 44m50s
Hits/proc: 59.5
PPM: 0.7.

Seeing what Aldriana stated about hidden cooldown I parsed my combatlog aswell and the quickest upon succession procs I got was:

5/31 15:34:16.906 You gain Skyfire Swiftness.
5/31 15:34:52.453 You gain Skyfire Swiftness.

So it concludes with his evidence of hidden cooldown and I will tend to say it is atleast 30secs, we have proven it is no more than 40secs, but can even be as high as 35secs.
With this results and a way faster weapon my hits/proc increased alot and is in relation with the wpn speed of my bow what I used before and what I used now so I can tell you 100% that the proc chance is based on PPM.

So as conclusion it has 1PPM per minute with a hidden cooldown of 35-40secs, so with the hidden cooldown now fairly well confirmed from more than 1 source. This makes it up for a new discussion if it is really better than Relentless cause of the hidden cooldown. But for now anyone thinking of this gem, it has 1PPM with a hidden cooldown of no less than 35secs, closer to 40secs.

So with this new hidden cooldown and confirmed that it is PPM the procrate, new theorycrafting: With my weapon (2.9 speed) and 1PPM it has 4.83% chance of proccing, which equate roughly of proccing every 21 shots. With specials between each auto and having no other haste effects on me whatsover and shooting 57 shots per minute, means after 19.5secs it will proc. Now with the hidden cooldown not pinpointed exactly, lets assume highest cooldown of 40secs means it will be able to proc after 40secs from proc, so every 60secs it will proc. 6secs every 60seconds it will be up 10% of time of which I will have 22% haste on me. Which is 2.2% overall dps inc for me. Assume I do 900 by myself, that is dps inc of 19.8 (alot less than before hidden cooldown ).

To compare with Relentless Earthstorm, 3% crit dmg inc, I crit 33% of the time and with 33% crit it means exactly 50% of total dmg done will be crit dmg (dont get me wrong in the sense that I say 50% is due to crit chance, I say 50% of dmg done with 33% crit will be suspect to the 3% dmg inc). 900dps as total, 450DPS of that is then due from crits, hence 450*0.03 = 13.5 DPS inc and then with the additional 12agi which adds roughly 5dps aswell I might tend to say Relentless is better once you start to breach the 33% crit mark.

P.S. Sorry about initial post where I said I had a proc in 10secs from each other, that data was from a while back and seems they have hotfix something cause it was such a good gem and think Blizz realised that it overshadowed any other meta there is for physical dmg dps. Just wish they will tell us this...

 

Abaxial

This was posted by someone on the WoW rogue forums, yes he didn't post his log but I don't see why he'd lie about his findings.

-Sapp Tichondrius


Also, with all of these items with haste buffing your chance to proc Combat Potency, is anyone finding it a bit awkward to keep a consistent cycle going?

http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...ks/Abaxial.png

 

kennyxedge

I've had one for a few days now, and it seems to proc pretty often. However, I have had no luck whatsoever getting ProcWatch to work with SimpleCombatLog. If you've got any tips/tricks for making ProcWatch work, I'd be more than willing to post some screen shots as soon as I get them.

If you are alone, you will be your own man.

 

◊ Shaker

You're probably factoring in instant attacks here (though I don't know much about post-TBC hunter shot rotations, so I could be totally off), but haste won't affect instant attacks, so you'll only get 2.2% of haste-affected DPS, which is an even lower number.

That being said, haste rocks for rogues, especially with combat potency, and unless there's some VERY surprising numbers, I don't think TSD is going to be dethroned.