rj

Change the haste value to 24 in the dps spreadsheet trinket section ((6/60) * 240). For me it still comes out better than the crit meta gem with my swords build.

 

• Aldriana

My calculations indicate that TSD > RED for rogues - not by a ridiculous amount, but it's defenitely better.

 

Zurgat

i think from the data shown earlier, that the
thundering = pve - increased sustained damage over time and energy regeneration.
relentless = pvp - shock damage and more crits

-= Random Ravings - RSS Feed =- Rogue and Hunter stuff here. As well as guides to get you trough your spare time.

 

Tiiki

Not ALL of us are combat rogues....

I'm a 41/20 mutilater, so don't get any extra energy from haste. Of course things like Dragonspine are still totally awesome for me, but what about in this case?

I tend to stack crit vs hit a little more than a combat rogue (though I have 5% less crit from talents). Currently on: ~1470AP/250HR/23.5% crit

How might TSD vs RED stack up for Mutilate builds in PvE?

[Zurgat: for PvP you want the 5% root/snare or 5% stun resist gems anyway... in fact I wish the root/snare one had the 18 stam too!]

 

Grunge

I'm 41/20 mutilate aswell, but the spreadsheet still shows TSD as superior to RED.

As for pvp, I socketed my gladiator's helm with RED, since you don't really need stamina when you're playing in any matrix that includes a warlock (or two).

Fans glory to the Gladiators,
Gods glory to the Heroes.

 

Tiiki

I do play 5v5 and 3v3 with a warlock, and yes, I sometimes use my PvE gear. But that's an X11 engi helm anyway, so... I swap to my PvE helm anyway. By that logic maybe I should get a RED for PvE/burst arena PvP.

Equally though, the main difference between my PvE and PvP arena sets is 250 AP and hit rating, they're about the same crit. So haste is probably decent in both. 41/20 needs time on target to deliver...

When there's a warrior or rogue I tend to wear resi gear anyway though, since I get blendered defending my warlock

Apologies for the de-rail!

 

exog

Semi-relevant question:
(Netherblade head + TSD/RED + Epic gem + 4piecec bonus) VS (Malefic mask of the shadows(Maulgar))

Having 3 NB pieces, 311 hit, 31 crit and 1518 ap. These stats with Malefic mask. (Got t4 chest yesterday, ungemmed currently tho)

To me it seems that Malefic mask is superior no matter how i turn it, tho its hard to put a value on the setbonus and the new gems... Any opinions are welcome.

Btw, i didnt find any suitable spreadsheet, for some reason all i found were outdated in some way.

 

Noobiisa

That is not true, as I stated earlier if your shot cycles allows for haste, example auto-steady-auto-steady and use arcane when you want and MS if you find it mana efficient enough (MM spec for example due to boosted crit and dmg), then with haste you shoot out more autos, but between each auto you can always fit in 1 kind of special, and also that steady shot is affected by haste abilities even if it is a special, so the exact number of autos I shoot more, is the exact number of specials I shoot more, so that is why I said haste is applicalbe to about 100% of my dmg. For rogue their specials aint effected, only white dmg and some abilities, like more potency procs. Still dont say is bad for rogue, just say haste affect bigger margin of a hunter's dps than for a rogue.

And lastly with 22% haste I shoot 22% more shots, which means regardless of dps inc, I have highern chance of procs happening, like JoW, Quick shots and with more shots means more crits so more KC, GftT and trinket procs if applicable. Remember ofc that this holds true till autoshot starts to be faster than 1.5sec which is GCD and then you will not be able to fit in specials between each shot anymore.

 

Soladoras

Given that the TSD is no longer the far and away meta gem winner, why should I even bother with it, when I'd have to use two worthless blue gems elsewhere in my gear?

cowl of defiance + not having to use blue gems > TSD in t4 + two shifting nightseye gems elsewhere ?

 

• Vulajin

If you can ever find anyone with the new Balanced Nightseye cut, you could use two of those to meet your blue requirement.

(edit) To make my post slightly less worthless, I do think the TSD is plenty enough of a difference-maker to warrant "wasting" two sockets on blues. Realize that each gem makes a rather small contribution to your overall DPS (at least as far as I gather from use of the spreadsheet). Changing from, say, two Glinting Noble Topaz to two Balanced Nightseye is a gain of 8 AP at the cost of ~0.2% crit and 8 hit rating. Obviously you lose more than you gain, but really not too much to make up by getting to use the TSD.

 

Soladoras

Hmm, I must have missed seeing the balanced nightseye being added as a part of the patch. I was thinking in terms of shifting nightseye, which I wouldn't be too happy about using.

 

sp00n

Well, the difference between the Balanced Nightseye (8 AP, 6 Sta) and the Shifting Nigthseye (4 Agi, 6 Sta) is not really very large.

 

Grunge

I fail to see how Balanced Nightseye would be better than Shifting Nightseye at any raidbuffed setup. o.O However, remember that our t5 pants have a blue socket as does gronn-stitched. Two blue sockets filled right there. Not to mention t4 chest, etc, etc.

Fans glory to the Gladiators,
Gods glory to the Heroes.

 

Soladoras

Well, after playing around with the spreadsheet for a bit, it seems the best option for me would be either girdle of treachery or gronn-stitched with 2x shifting nightseye in one or the other, which ever one drops first. It's the only way i can stay under the hit cap without re-socketing other gear.

 

Hedin

I wrote the addon for my shaman to count procs because all other addons doesn't count WF of SS as hits.
In addition my addon shows smallest time between procs.
So i did a "little" test on an unkillable Servant of Sevine in Blasted Lands using [Dragonstrike] + [Gladiator's Pummeler]:

Skyfire Swiftness got 100 procs in 10414 hits and the smallest time was 40.58 sec between them :-(

40 sec cooldown on a new metagem /spit

 

Kellhus

It could very well be that I'm functionally retarded (the accusations are frequent) but any gains I make from actually slotting the haste metagem simply makes up for the dps loss I received by having to slot blue gems to meet the requirements. Per the spreadsheets the gain is, at best, nil -- at worst I'm taking a slight loss.

Anywhere I toss in blue gems, I'm basically losing hit which tends to be costly. Wish they'd put a +hit gem combination somewhere in the blue sphere.

Anyone else seeing this?

 

• Aldriana

Nope. The value of TSD is about 70-80 AP, versus 24 for Swift Skyfire. Even swapping out 2 gems for shifting nighteyes, and reenchanting boots for cat's swiftness costs you at most 8 hit and 6 agi - which works out to about 35 AP. So it's, at minimum, a 10-20 AP upgrade - more if you get socket bonuses from using the gems, and still more if you don't mind being without +run speed. Plus, you pick up 12 sta, which is hardly wasted.

 

◊ gwystyl

I think that a flat Haste Rating of 24 is overvaluing the metagem. I've normalized at a 0.9 PPM according to Procwatch and unless I'm reading it wrong, it's counting actual procs in a given amount of time, which isn't PPM the way we define it. So, it's even lower than that.

I used a flat 17 haste rating when modeling TSD and it *still* comes out ahead of the SSD with a Pulsating Amethyst and Shifting Nightseye and Cat's Swiftness opposed to SSD with Bright Living Ruby, Rigid Dawnstone and +12 Agi to boots.

The difference doesn't blow my skirt up, but it's substantial enough to make TSD and its socket requirement worth it even when you drop its worth to 17 as opposed to the 24 which Aldriana uses.

 

Ilmatar

Hedin, I would be interested in that addon. I also picked up the TSD last night to give it a test. It was my theory that this gem would be very good for Shaman and here is my reasoning: With linked Windfury cooldowns, Enh. shaman have two combat states: WF Cooldown, and need to proc WF ASAP. I have a simple little addon that displays the WF cooldown so I use Stormstrike when WF is out of cooldown to help even that out. What I did like about this gem is that, when it procs, I am _probably_ going to be in WF cooldown for two cooldowns. If I am in cooldown when the gem procs, than the duration is long enough to last the cooldown (even if the gem procced off the initial hit that also procc'd WF). This means that I have (probably) at least 2 gem-hasted swings after the 3s CD on WF, which leads to more Windfuries.

I am a bit irked by the 40s cd on the proc, though. That is really weak. I would rather have less haste rating, and no cooldown. Especially for a meta gem with no passive benifits, 40s cooldown seems too much, to me.

 

gakutomagnum

I've used both. I have mixed feelings about it. It's nice to have the crit gem when you're raiding and you get over 40% crit. All that extra crit dmg on every swing (white & yellow) versus a ppm haste rating that might net you maybe 15-XX energy in 6 seconds.

But I am leaning towards the haste gem because I like poking daggers at 0.70/0.55 speeds.

In any case, those of you using the spreadsheet as some back up, I think are wrong, because it's simulated and flawed and doesn't really reflect what everyone does in certain situations while raiding.

 

sp00n

Why? It does exactly what it's supposed to, calculating the theoretical DPS value for a static and infinite fight.

Now you as the user have to adapt to the various situations, not the sheet.

Of course there are several issues with the spreadsheet, but you can't blame it that there are so few static fights in BC.
If you come up with an idea to modle a non static fight where you have to run away etc, I'd love to use it.

 

Cranch

For what it's worth, using Cheeky's v19 spreadsheet and my current gear, PvE raid buffed, the two gems are about equal (TSD 1752.74 RED 1752.07 nominal dps.)

I model TSD as a mean 24 haste (reflecting the measured 0.9 to 1 PPM people actually see with procwatch, implying that the haste is up 10% of the time.) Since the RED is half the price of TSD on my server, the choice is obvious for me.