Playing an Arcane Mage - Page 2

squiffy · 05/01/07, 8:14 PM

Looking at my sadly neglected level 60 mage, is arcane spec viable for leveling with?

Kavan · 05/01/07, 8:28 PM

Some notes from the pure arcane perspective. I finally did some Dr.Boom tests and ABx3+AM+Scorch indeed outperforms ABx3+2xAM and I've used it successfully in raids. AM is actually higher dps than the ABx3+AM+Scorch cycle, but the cycle has better dpm characteristics. If you're mana limited (i.e. you can't just spam AB) then a mix of the AB spam and ABx3+AM+Scorch cycle will give you better performance than mixing AB spam and AM. Still if you're getting hit switching to AM is your best option.

When you're going for efficiency cycles (meaning if you don't have a shadow priest in your group) then along with reducing AB to 2 casts you should also downrank AM to rank 8. If for some reason you need extreme dpm mode your best bet is ABx1+AM8 cycle and fishing for clearcasts.

Another thing to keep in mind is that pure arcane has the highest proc ability. This means that Judgement of Wisdom and trinkets like Lightning Capacitor, Nexus Horn and Mark of Defiance are a lot more powerful.

Netherblade · 05/01/07, 9:03 PM

The goal is to cast Arcane Blast during the debuff, but have it finish casting after the debuff has faded. That way your AB cycle has you getting your AB's cheaper than they should be.

Such a simple tip, but something I didint actually realise even after alot of reading in the other thread - thanks!

I have another question to throw around - how does the viability of Arcane builds (lets assume its primary arcane: 48/13) change as you increase +damage? If you start getting to the +1000 damage club does this affect things much? At all? Is there some sort of (proven mathematical) peak where Arcane simply stops being good, above a certain +dam and fire pulls ahead?

Ive read some speculation on the Theorycrafting thread but again I wasnt able to get a clear answer/didnt envolve alot of math =)

You get the benefit of ultra-low threat AM that outpaces frostbolt and depending on gear is just shy of a 5:1 Fireball:Scorch rotation.

The poster was referring to the benefits of a 48/13 arcane build - but what exactly does the above comment mean: 'is just shy of a 5:1 fireball:scorch rotation'?

Teenee · 05/01/07, 9:15 PM

Originally Posted by squiffy

Looking at my sadly neglected level 60 mage, is arcane spec viable for leveling with?

It's viable. I wouldn't recommend it however. Frost is largely considered the leveling tree for many reasons (front loaded damage, kiting for those tricky mobs). Frost also gives you more leeway in terms of bad groups (thinking Ice Block, and the greater control you can provide via quadruple Frost Novas).

Antiphonal · 05/02/07, 9:26 AM

Originally Posted by Netherblade

The poster was referring to the benefits of a 48/13 arcane build - but what exactly does the above comment mean: 'is just shy of a 5:1 fireball:scorch rotation'?

I plugged in my gear:

10/48/3 - 5x Fireball, 1x Scorch cycle - 788 dps, 3:33 time, 204,348 total damage.

2/0/59 - Frostbolt - 650 dps, 3:35 time, 167,359 total damage.
2/0/59 - Frostbolt and Water Elemental (averaged) - 727 dps, 3:35 time, 183,872 total damage.

48/13/0 - AM only - 737 dps, 2:45 time, 132,485 total damage.
48/13/0 - Fireball only - 624 dps, 3:13 time, 124,274 total damage.
48/13/0 - ABx2, AM, Scorch - 722 dps, 4:00 time, 173,303 total damage.

AM is not as efficient as Fireball, but it's damage is competitive with 5:1 Fireball:Scorch. The benefits for using it are the low threat, low burst, no interruption from damage. Plus you can turn on a dime and do AP+AB if needed for pretty amazing burst. And you get Slow, etc... If those things are important to you, AM will hold up to Fireball fairly well, just not with the same efficiency.

However, the real shocker is 2/0/59. That's actually pretty amazing for the "low dps" tree.

Phalanx · 05/02/07, 9:43 AM

Originally Posted by Netherblade

Im just a little apprehensive with fights like Magtheridon/Lurker, which are so long - say 10 minutes. Won't I (as arcane) be spending most of the fight (like 9 out of 10 minutes) in 'efficiency' mode, which is somewhat lower dps? Sure I can go dps crazy for 1 minute and go oom, but over the course of a 10 minute fight, would that extra DPS from that 1 minute of spam, compensate for 'being efficient' in the other 9 minutes - compared to a fire mage whos been going steady for all 10 minutes? (Hope that makes sense)

It's going to take a few kills with each boss to know when you can start spamming AB (it does for my retarded ass). The more times I can pop my AP/PoM/Pyro macro during the fight without wanding for mana at some point, the more damage you're going to squeeze out.

The good thing to remember is that it doesn't take long to dump your mana if you're worried about not doing enough damage. Especially with the PoM/AP or even Heroism/Bloodlust. The trick, again, is to figure out how many times during a fight you can afford to do that.

Remember that you have Evocation and three gems. Consider that part of your base mana. Then, figure Blessing of Wisdom, Mana Spring, Vampiric Touch, Mana Tide, Mageblood, Mage Armor. Any combination of these, or all if you're lucky, is your supplemental mana.

You could work the numbers, if you wanted, but I typically just monitor my mana as it's being used. That's part of being the Arcane mage, a bit more micro-management of your mana. On a farm fight, I can judge by how quick the boss is going down how much time is left and say to myself 'I can probably pop my macro now, spam and Evoc' or 'I'll wait a bit'.

Im curious, when your in this mode - how does your DPS compare to PVE fire mages of similar gear to you? Are you quite competitive/considerably lower or higher on DPS? Im referring moreso to long 8+ minute fights (Mag, Lurker etc)

Depends on the fight, really. The one 10/48/3 Mage we have who usually tops the damage meters in my guild has the Tailoring epic gear, Prince dagger, Heroic off-hand and is a very good player. Unless he dies early on (or if I Shatter kill him.. muahahaha!), I won't catch him on the damage meters.

My gear is pretty shitty right now, if I ever get some of the items I want to drop, the gap will close, but Deep Fire is raid damage king.

And also, the tip about starting the cast of the first AB of your next rotation before the AB debuff expires and have it finishing after it expires is key. This is where the latency comes into play, sometimes I can squeeze out 4 Scorches, sometimes just 3.

Netherblade · 05/02/07, 10:37 AM

Thanks for the helpful comments =)

And also, the tip about starting the cast of the first AB of your next rotation before the AB debuff expires and have it finishing after it expires is key. This is where the latency comes into play, sometimes I can squeeze out 4 Scorches, sometimes just 3.

This is one of the things i never really realised until I tried arcane spec myself. Alot more micro-management with my mana/being aware of what spells casted than fire, where I can happily/mindlessly spam fireball/fireblast for many fights.

Another question.. as a deep pve fire mage, I always preferred to stack max damage. How does the value of crit/+dam compare to a arcane mage (lets say a49/13 talent spec mage) compared crit/+dam for a fire mage. Does +crit have a bigger value in the arcane mages playstyle because of the spellpower talent? or is +dam still king across all the specs

Phalanx · 05/02/07, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by Netherblade

Another question.. as a deep pve fire mage, I always preferred to stack max damage. How does the value of crit/+dam compare to a arcane mage (lets say a49/13 talent spec mage) compared crit/+dam for a fire mage. Does +crit have a bigger value in the arcane mages playstyle because of the spellpower talent? or is +dam still king across all the specs

I like +damage and +crit. I don't need much +hit, though it does help with the Fire spells I cast. I think I normally run around with 5% +hit on bosses.

BTW, since you're thrown a bunch of +crit-related things in Deep Fire, it's actually better to stack +hit than it is +crit. I think it is, atleast.

You have a much bigger +hit gap to make up on bosses with Deep Fire.

Vontre · 05/02/07, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by Antiphonal

I plugged in my gear:

10/48/3 - 5x Fireball, 1x Scorch cycle - 788 dps, 3:33 time, 204,348 total damage.

2/0/59 - Frostbolt - 650 dps, 3:35 time, 167,359 total damage.
2/0/59 - Frostbolt and Water Elemental (averaged) - 727 dps, 3:35 time, 183,872 total damage.

48/13/0 - AM only - 737 dps, 2:45 time, 132,485 total damage.
48/13/0 - Fireball only - 624 dps, 3:13 time, 124,274 total damage.
48/13/0 - ABx2, AM, Scorch - 722 dps, 4:00 time, 173,303 total damage.

AM is not as efficient as Fireball, but it's damage is competitive with 5:1 Fireball:Scorch. The benefits for using it are the low threat, low burst, no interruption from damage. Plus you can turn on a dime and do AP+AB if needed for pretty amazing burst. And you get Slow, etc... If those things are important to you, AM will hold up to Fireball fairly well, just not with the same efficiency.

However, the real shocker is 2/0/59. That's actually pretty amazing for the "low dps" tree.

It would potentially be higher if you had master of elements. Also might ignore mob-level resist but we're not sure.

You should try your arcane build with improved scorch.

Sapphrina · 05/02/07, 11:59 AM

As arcane mage damage scales with how fast you pour your manabar into it, obviously things like VT, JoW, and also innervate are really helpful.

Edit: And power infusion to use back to back with AP while innervate is running hehe. Good luck getting your raid convinced to put you in that group and give you those buffs though.. Maybe if you were the raid leader.. =p

Anduryondon · 05/02/07, 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by squiffy

Looking at my sadly neglected level 60 mage, is arcane spec viable for leveling with?

Since i hate 0815 Speccs for my twink (main has to be 0815, because efficiency>fun =/ ) i specced arcane with 64 (specced it with 60 too, but AM only is really pain). I went Arcane/Frost with slow and improved nova etc (so just ABs, no FBs or sth) and i felt fine, shatter with imp. clearcast = nearly 100% crit and so on. It works nice if you dont go for mainstream speccs.

Netherblade · 05/02/07, 12:18 PM

It would potentially be higher if you had master of elements. Also might ignore mob-level resist but we're not sure.

You should try your arcane build with improved scorch.

In a 48/13 spec after some playing tonight. I just couldnt really find a place for Arcane Missiles aside from clearcast. Sure, it was fun for AP+trinket, but is it right to think that going 41/19 or 40/20 is a far superior spec in all ways for damage? The thing was, I really liked the idea of 'being full arcane' and having all my points sunk deep into the arcane tree, but I cant see what benefit doing this has over 40/20ish. +15% fire dam from improved scorch and using fireballs/scorches in your rotation and just dropping AM completely. What do you think, Vontre? (You understand the maths behind all this alot better than I do :P)

It really looks like the strength of arcane tree builds (ironically) come heavily from the fire tree still. (bit strange, huh. When I was fire, the strength of deep fire still comes solely from the fire tree itself, whereas deep arcane lends itself heavily to fire still)

How do people handle Arcane missiles in arcane builds. Do you only use them on clearcasts? Do you not use them at all? If you got mana-to-burn, wouldnt you just want to throw the DPS into heavy AB spam cycles instead? Sure trinket+AP+missiles is fun, but is there a more compelling reason im overlooking to actually use the spell, rather than drop it completely and put the points in fire?

Sapphrina · 05/02/07, 12:30 PM

Would be funny if PoM made AM instant. Good chance of a nice followup from 5x proc chance on two "on spellhit" trinkets.

Actually, come to think of it, spellhaste effects will be fun for people who use AM, especially from procs so you have no control over the timing. Might mess up the rotation too much though =p

Stein · 05/02/07, 12:34 PM

Originally Posted by Netherblade

using fireballs/scorches in your rotation and just dropping AM completely. What do you think, Vontre? (You understand the maths behind all this alot better than I do :P)

Scorches for debuff and 2*Fireball are definitely superior to AM+Scorch. Imo, the optimal build for this is 40/18/3.

The only time I'd recommend using AM+Scorch instead of Fire is if you are worried about aggro or if you want to get more of a pvp hybrid build.

Vontre · 05/02/07, 2:20 PM

AM will be an excellent use of spell-haste procs when it is effected. For the most part AM is a utility spell. The two biggest reasons to use it are clearcasting procs, and proc effects. You should try having 2 "proc on crit" trinkets as well as arcane potency and switch to that on a clearcast. Almost guaranteed proc chance for 250 spell damage from nexus-horn and whatever else from another trinket.

You can improve arcane missiles and scorch in the same build, but you have to give up improved arcane missiles. You don't generally need it anyway on raids. For pvp builds you take improved AM, for pve you take the +hit. Arcane Missiles can eat other casters alive if you know when to use it, especially warlocks. I haven't done this in ages though since it's really only a 1v1 tactic and I spec for arenas. Too much mana dumped in anything but a duel.