Moonkin DPS Spreadsheet - Page 75

• Adoriele · 08/25/08, 12:32 AM

Originally Posted by Soultrigger

I was accepted this week in the top guild for my server (after 2 months without playing wow), they are working on Muru. Probably they will allow me to do only the initial bosses from SWP. I know my gear lacks a lot comparing to theirs, but I don´t want to let they with a bad impression about moonkins, since it will be their first test of moonkins.

So the question I have is: is there any way to improve the way I play (WWS Loading... - the only WWS I got from my last guild :/) or my gems/enchants/gear that I can easyly change?

PS: Consider only the Teron tries, I did not dps on the Gurtogg attempts, we were just learning how to move and heal the boss for that WWS.

Yeah, quick look says that you're doing pretty much exactly as much DPS on Teron as can be expected at your gear level. If you'd like, I'll parse you for cast time, but I'm fairly certain you're gear-capped. If there's any way at all you can get a quick 4T5, do it, otherwise you'll need to be dragged through BT/Hyjal to get up to speed with your guild. Actually, that's probably the case anyway.

Soultrigger · 08/25/08, 9:58 AM

Yeah, but probably they won´t do BT anymore, but it seems sometimes they buy another guilds CDs, I mean, a guild who can´t kill illidan or Archimonde, they buy their kill for this guild and do them. So my hopes are that I can grab the 3 T6 at SWP and get lucky getting a fourth piece on one of these rare runs, the other slots I will have to use SWP gear I think. But thanks, knowing the most probably issue is the gear and not player skill, makes it a bit easy. ^^

Ragesh · 08/25/08, 11:41 AM

I'm a long time reader, but not writing in here quite often. I love this spreadsheet and use it quite ofter for the most questions I have. Thank you for it.
Our raid is doing tries on Brutallus since two or three weeks. Since, I would say one week, we get him quite often in enrage. Even tough nobody is complaining about my dps I feel there should be more possible. The spreadsheet is telling me I should do about 1600-1650 dps but in reality I just do 1450 to 1550. I'm normally grouped with a shadow priest and 3 warlocks/mages. We normally have 2-3 drummers in group and I use destruction pots. When the fight starts I'm aggro-capped for the first 30 seconds. After the first taunt normally there are no further aggro issues.

Here is a wws parse from our last evening of tries. WWS
My actual gear shown in the armory is what I also wear raiding.

The question I have is: Am I doing something wrong on rotation or gearing?

Gravel · 08/27/08, 2:26 AM

Originally Posted by Ragesh

I'm a long time reader, but not writing in here quite often. I love this spreadsheet and use it quite ofter for the most questions I have. Thank you for it.
Our raid is doing tries on Brutallus since two or three weeks. Since, I would say one week, we get him quite often in enrage. Even tough nobody is complaining about my dps I feel there should be more possible. The spreadsheet is telling me I should do about 1600-1650 dps but in reality I just do 1450 to 1550. I'm normally grouped with a shadow priest and 3 warlocks/mages. We normally have 2-3 drummers in group and I use destruction pots. When the fight starts I'm aggro-capped for the first 30 seconds. After the first taunt normally there are no further aggro issues.

Here is a wws parse from our last evening of tries. WWS
My actual gear shown in the armory is what I also wear raiding.

The question I have is: Am I doing something wrong on rotation or gearing?

Well unless insect swarm or will make or break the encounter, i.e. tanks dying or taking too much damage I wouldn't be using it in my rotation. Also two stamina gems in a chest doesn't make any sense to me, as well as the spirit gem ;D. Other than that there's not too much to say.

erragal · 08/27/08, 10:41 AM

Originally Posted by Ragesh

I'm a long time reader, but not writing in here quite often. I love this spreadsheet and use it quite ofter for the most questions I have. Thank you for it.
Our raid is doing tries on Brutallus since two or three weeks. Since, I would say one week, we get him quite often in enrage. Even tough nobody is complaining about my dps I feel there should be more possible. The spreadsheet is telling me I should do about 1600-1650 dps but in reality I just do 1450 to 1550. I'm normally grouped with a shadow priest and 3 warlocks/mages. We normally have 2-3 drummers in group and I use destruction pots.

The question I have is: Am I doing something wrong on rotation or gearing?

I can't examine your gear at work, but I can give you some insight/suggestions just based on what you posted.

Being aggro capped at the beginning is certainly not going to help anything, and if you're missing even two starfires due to hesitation from aggro pull then you're losing a lot of damage. Maybe your initial tank just isn't generating enough threat?

I'm assuming you do not have mana issues with a Shadow Priest? Insect Swarm is definitely going to be lowering your DPS. I do not keep it up on brut other than when I am moving to the burn zone or in mana constrained situations. Unless you're using 4PT5 there is no advantage.

Another thing to note is that even while you're hesitating on your Starfires due to aggro, your dots are going to be ticking which will lower your displayed DPS. On our 3% Brut enrage on Monday I had 1580 DPS (In slightly worse gear than what I'm wearing) even though I went OOM with 45 seconds till enrage. However, I kept insect swarm up after I went oom so I had 99% DPS Time. That's why total damage is generally more significant than DPS. I can actually beat our best locks and hunter occasionally on Illidan and Supremus in total damage, but my DPS looks awful. The goal is to do the MOST damage to the boss possible, and when you're a good player you will start instinctively throwing insect swarms up on slight position shifts or fight based movements that lower your DPS but give you significant damage that has no opportunity cost.

Make sure your crit rate on WWS is near what you expect. A lower crit rate than expected due to RNG will affect your DPS quite a bit. Additionally, check your miss rate. Was a moonfire missed and not reapplied immediately? Is your miss rate slightly higher than it should be?

The last thing to check is just to go through your log and examine the time between Starfires landing and make sure it's consistent with cast times (Make sure you check if you're under drums or lust in a given period). That's an important skill to develop for self-analysis that I use when I see a particularly low output on a given fight. You seem very aware of what you need to do, so I'd rather tell you what to look for yourself so you can have those tools in the future!

Totally Unrelated To the Above:

There's an important point I wanted to make for non-spriest non-mana tide moonkin looking to survive the entire Brut fight: It's impossible without Judgement of Wisdom. I run mana pot on cooldown, demonic rune on cooldown, and self-innervate at the exact mana it will put me at full. When we don't have an alt-IDS I even used Spirit Scrolls. I've run my numbers multiple times, and I come up anywhere from 5200-6100 mana short depending on if I have actual Divine Spirit and I drop 4 spell damage to put in 10 more spirit from Purified Shadowsong Amethysts.

Judgement of Wisdom actually puts you within 1000 mana of the total needed to finish the fight. I have not found an effective way to pick up the 70 MP5 you need to finish the fight, that won't result in a huge DPS loss. Spirit Staff switching during innervate is only worth about 1100 mana (I even have a Nightstaff) and that's not enough for the huge hit and damage loss.

This is assuming an exact 6 minute at enrage Brut Moonfire/IFF/Starfire rotation. Likely I'm going to need to adjust my rotation slightly and slip an IS in place of a moonfire at least twice. Or just hope for lucky RNG on the pots. Normally I do get a Ret Paladin, but on Monday I did not and went OOM with 45 seconds left right about when the numbers predict I will.

I don't know how many people this really applies to, but it'd be interesting if anyone else had insights from this situation as well. Or does everyone in Sunwell really have the luxury of a shadowpriest?

I'm also very down on the Ashtongue trinket. Even at 219 haste rating, I find the reliance on RNG to be so frustrating. I've gotten almost 2100 DPS on Kaz'Rogal and 2000+ on Teron with it, but if I do not get multiple procs during a bloodlust or the timing is such that it's not up for the majority of my moonfires I see a significant DPS drop compared to my DMC: Crusade. It's not that it's bad, it's just very frustrating. You put your results in the hand of lady luck, and I feel consistency is paramount, particularly on dps check fights like Brut.

Erdluf · 08/27/08, 11:56 AM

Originally Posted by erragal

Spirit Staff switching during innervate is only worth about 1100 mana (I even have a Nightstaff) and that's not enough for the huge hit and damage loss.

1100 mana is 3.3 SF casts at the end of the fight. Suppose your regular staff is 350 +spell and 5% hit. Losing that for 8 SF casts shouldn't average much more than one "normal" SF loss in damage.

However if you end up going OOM with 45s left, just stop casting while you have the spirit stick up. You've got 45s to make up those eight casts later (along with the 3.3 extra casts you get from the mana stick).

If you are going OOM that soon, you also need to be using IS, and not MF. You are mana limited, not time limited. IS is still your best DPM. You also might consider downranking to SF7. At 1500 +spell, it loses 2% damage/cast, but gains almost 7% DPM.

Edit: At high gear levels, IS may be lower DPM than SF. Better check your own numbers (raid buffed).

erragal · 08/27/08, 1:36 PM

Originally Posted by Erdluf

1100 mana is 3.3 SF casts at the end of the fight. Suppose your regular staff is 350 +spell and 5% hit. Losing that for 8 SF casts shouldn't average much more than one "normal" SF loss in damage.

However if you end up going OOM with 45s left, just stop casting while you have the spirit stick up. You've got 45s to make up those eight casts later (along with the 3.3 extra casts you get from the mana stick).

If you are going OOM that soon, you also need to be using IS, and not MF. You are mana limited, not time limited. IS is still your best DPM. You also might consider downranking to SF7. At 1500 +spell, it loses 2% damage/cast, but gains almost 7% DPM.

Edit: At high gear levels, IS may be lower DPM than SF. Better check your own numbers (raid buffed).

Yea, I definitely realized retroactively that simply stopping casting would have resulted in more mana regen. It's difficult in the midst of the fight to realize it if you haven't planned it out ahead of time. The downranking is something I've also been considering as my raid buffs are pushing me above 1600 spell damage.

I did the calculations for DPM at my gear level and Starfire is 1.6 DPM higher than IS.

I've also taken a look at switching from Blinding Light Flask to Draenic + Adept's and there's a gain of almost 2k mana for me there as well. It's a positive total damage result for the switch by a wide margin. Just a lot more expensive, and if it doesn't give me any extra casts then it becomes a significant damage loss.

Scarius · 08/29/08, 5:43 AM

Originally Posted by Ragesh

I'm a long time reader, but not writing in here quite often. I love this spreadsheet and use it quite ofter for the most questions I have. Thank you for it.
Our raid is doing tries on Brutallus since two or three weeks. Since, I would say one week, we get him quite often in enrage. Even tough nobody is complaining about my dps I feel there should be more possible. The spreadsheet is telling me I should do about 1600-1650 dps but in reality I just do 1450 to 1550. I'm normally grouped with a shadow priest and 3 warlocks/mages. We normally have 2-3 drummers in group and I use destruction pots. When the fight starts I'm aggro-capped for the first 30 seconds. After the first taunt normally there are no further aggro issues.

Here is a wws parse from our last evening of tries. WWS
My actual gear shown in the armory is what I also wear raiding.

The question I have is: Am I doing something wrong on rotation or gearing?

Just to add to what other people have said. Treants do about 22-24k dmg on Brut atleast in my case. That is another 50 dps give or take.

• Efejel · 09/02/08, 2:43 AM

Do you have a feral tank, and if so, where is their innervate going?

With Imp DS and the feral tossing me innervate about 2 minutes in, I can sustain a MF/SF/iFF rotation without an SPriest or mana tide. (I do add some IS when I'm getting pushback, when stomp is imminent, when moving for burns, etc.)

Here's a not-terribly-impressive WWS from our last Brut kill.

Klaerth · 09/02/08, 12:26 PM

I'm curious - I'm attempting to edit the spreadsheet a bit, namely adding a few pieces of gear that aren't found within it...and I'm having an issue. Namely, the only sheet/table that it will let me bring up to edit happens to be that for Helms and Helm Enchants. Whenever I try and open any for Leggings/etc., it just goes straight to the Helm table. Might anyone know why this might be?

Edit: Disregard this, I s'pose. The manual entry section will help for a bit, at least. =>

bodvarbjarki · 09/02/08, 2:37 PM

30 sec seems like a long time to be threat-limited on Brut. Do you have a feral tank, and if so, is he going first?

I generally start the fight with IFF, drums, MF, then treants and never have to think about threat again.

Moginheden · 09/02/08, 7:20 PM

Originally Posted by erragal

Judgement of Wisdom actually puts you within 1000 mana of the total needed to finish the fight. I have not found an effective way to pick up the 70 MP5 you need to finish the fight, that won't result in a huge DPS loss. Spirit Staff switching during innervate is only worth about 1100 mana (I even have a Nightstaff) and that's not enough for the huge hit and damage loss.

Run Heroic MgT and get yourself a [Rod of the Blazing Light], socket it with 3 [Sparkling Empyrean Sapphire]. It's the 2nd highest spirit stick in the game, and it's easy to farm, (highest is [Golden Staff of the Sin'dorei] off Kil'jaeden). When I self-innervate I've macroed in a swap to this rod and I get a full mana bar, (10k or so) at the end of the innervate and I continue to spend mana during innervate so it's more than 10k total.

Moginheden · 09/02/08, 7:24 PM

Originally Posted by erragal

Yea, I definitely realized retroactively that simply stopping casting would have resulted in more mana regen. It's difficult in the midst of the fight to realize it if you haven't planned it out ahead of time. The downranking is something I've also been considering as my raid buffs are pushing me above 1600 spell damage.

Stopping casting when your not oom will reduce your mana regen as you need to wait for the 5 second rule twice, (unless your threat capped.) It's better to go oom, wait for a while, then start up again rather than starting and stopping.

If your threat capped at any point during the fight and expect to go oom, wait longer than needed for threat to start casting again. As you've already gotten past the 5 second rule.

Öwlcapwn · 09/11/08, 2:26 AM

I was wondering what the concensus was for SWP balance druids on gear set up. Currently trying to down Felmyst. ATM i have the belt and bracers T6. i'm running at around 1400+ spell damage 200+ haste ~25 crit unbuffed. I know there is a lot of talk in this thread about wearing 4/5 T5 4/8 T6 til you get most of the upgrades out of SWP.

My question basically is should I look to pick up the Cloth DPS pieces rather than the Leather? MAXdps.com puts most of the cloth pieces above the leather pieces for best in slot. Is this true with an entire gear set up? There is no spirit from what i can remember atm on any of the cloth pieces which would equate out to less MP5. anyway thanks for the advice ahead of time.

• Efejel · 09/11/08, 2:50 AM

We just downed Felmyst a couple of weeks ago, and I still haven't picked up boots, so I can relate my experience.

I'm using T5 Helm (no T6 yet), T6 Chest, Bracers, Belt, Shoulders, Leather SWP Gloves & Legs (due to rarity of Sunmotes & Brut's cloth legs), Illidan cloak, Naj'entus MH, badge OH.

Depending on availability, I'd say it's worth going after the cloth pants but I wouldn't worry about the crafted gloves unless you ALWAYS get a SPriest and your guild is rolling in Sunmotes. Beyond that, if you have access to double 4-pc. bonuses, and you're willing to do what's best for the guild rather than simply yourself, you'd do well to pick up the leather pieces when they'd otherwise be sharded, but wait to take cloth until all of your regular clothies have had their chances. Depending on your loot system, this might put you earlier in line for trinkets, rings, necklaces, cloaks, and weapons.

Oh, and if you're over 200 haste (and lack either a Skull of Gul'dan or a Hex-shrunken Head) I'd give the Ashtongue trinket a try in your boss sets.

Boswell · 09/11/08, 2:52 AM

Originally Posted by Öwlcapwn

I was wondering what the concensus was for SWP balance druids on gear set up. Currently trying to down Felmyst. ATM i have the belt and bracers T6. i'm running at around 1400+ spell damage 200+ haste ~25 crit unbuffed. I know there is a lot of talk in this thread about wearing 4/5 T5 4/8 T6 til you get most of the upgrades out of SWP.

My question basically is should I look to pick up the Cloth DPS pieces rather than the Leather? MAXdps.com puts most of the cloth pieces above the leather pieces for best in slot. Is this true with an entire gear set up? There is no spirit from what i can remember atm on any of the cloth pieces which would equate out to less MP5. anyway thanks for the advice ahead of time.

Essentially, a shadow priest is necessary for a balance druid raiding sunwell, especially at the higher haste levels. It's without a question MANDATORY no matter how many regen talents you have or chain mana potting with innervate. With that said, if you have a shadow priest you should be able to sustain very good mana to last, even without a lot of the leather pieces, which should only be temporary upgrades till you can get the cloth pieces. (Leggings of Calamity/Amice of the Convoker/Robes of Ghostly Hatred/Dark Conjurer's Collar/Handguards of Defiled Worlds).

I've done the math and the best combination I could come up with is T6 belt/boot/bracer/chest with amice/calamity/handguards/collar. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong. Sure, spirit is important for mana regen, but generally speaking the mp5 difference wouldn't matter if you have a shadow priest in your group, which you do need and should always have. So yeah, cloth gear > leather gear.

This has been the best I've done with ~300 haste and soaking meteor slashes, It's been weeks since I haven't gotten chain burned or I had to travel form around to resurrect people so I haven't had a chance to try to break that record, which I should be able to because I'm almost 2x better geared then I was when I did that.

Wow Web Stats

EDIT//To quote Manly for the hell of it for more insight on mana:

More mana + more time = more damage?
In PVE, 'more time' does not exists. If you kill a boss in 3 min, having more mana doesn't means you get to dps for 3:30. Thus, more mana is not more dps.

mana regen is not a DPS stat

if mana regen is not dps, then how do you balance caster dps ?
logically, you can *only* balance caster dps based on max dps cycle; ie: ignore mana concerns.

Amiran · 09/13/08, 3:50 AM

Ok so recently I have had some changes to my gear gaining about 3% haste and 1% crit and for the life of me I can not figure out why my DPS has gone down from an average of about 1500 to between 13 and 1400.

The World of Warcraft Armory

So here I am. I seem to have exhausted every possible option I can think of so I came to the direct source of all the pros for assistance in what I'm doing wrong. Usually for the relatively quick fights I do MF SFx5 with FF tagged on the end of every second one and for longer fights usually just using SF. This past raid week I keep getting a ridiculous amount of partial resists on my crits (about 50% of them are partial resists). If there is anything I might possibly have done wrong I would love to hear the suggestions on how to fix it.

Öwlcapwn · 09/14/08, 4:27 AM

Originally Posted by Amiran

Ok so recently I have had some changes to my gear gaining about 3% haste and 1% crit and for the life of me I can not figure out why my DPS has gone down from an average of about 1500 to between 13 and 1400.

The World of Warcraft Armory

So here I am. I seem to have exhausted every possible option I can think of so I came to the direct source of all the pros for assistance in what I'm doing wrong. Usually for the relatively quick fights I do MF SFx5 with FF tagged on the end of every second one and for longer fights usually just using SF. This past raid week I keep getting a ridiculous amount of partial resists on my crits (about 50% of them are partial resists). If there is anything I might possibly have done wrong I would love to hear the suggestions on how to fix it.

IMO you are to a little on Spell Damage. Any socket you have 5crit/6dam gems i would replace with either haste/dam or just straight dam (personally with your gear set up atm i would go with 12 damage) and get rid of the BT trinket and either use the icon of the silver crescent, H MgT timbals focus, or Quags eye Until you can get a Skull of Gul'dan.

Socketing for crit is terrible, you should rely on your items equip stat for crit and also the Meta Skyfire 12 crit / 3% crit damage. i'm using the shadow casters drape but the Illidari Council cloak is much better if you can get it. I would also get rid of your shoulders, anything else will do, spell pen is a wasted stat. Sunfire enchant is also a good idea since Boss spell rotation at your level is MF SF(til moonfire expires; i neer refresh moonfire until it wears out) Mainhand off Najentus, offhand off Anetheron is a better set up, though the staff from illidan is your best bet. Anything from SWP is better of course. Rings - Third chest even from ZA, and either Trash BT haste ring or SWP pattern trash drop.

Amiran · 09/14/08, 3:13 PM

The shoulders I have are much better than anything else I have available to me right now. As for the trinket everything I've read says its the best until the Skull of Gul'dan. Also when I started socketing for haste thats when I noticed my DPS start to go down it seems the more haste I get the more my DPS decreases.

bodvarbjarki · 09/14/08, 10:53 PM

In my opinion you don't have enough spell haste to justify using the the BT trinket (and trading dmg for more haste to use it is not a good choice). The haste will come in time. I still love the DM:Crusade card, and the Alchemist's Stone isn't a bad choice either (leveling alch is fast, and you don't even have tailoring maxed).

I don't know how "everything you read" could have said that the BT trinket was the best until the Skull. Certainly I wouldn't say that is the consensus view on these forums.

In any case, I would follow the instructions of the previous poster before you do anything else---get rid of your crit gems. I'd also dump those bracers and get the HoD ones made if you don't expect to see the Kalecgos bracers soon.

The effectiveness of haste relies on you having no mana issues (I assume you must always get a SP?). Low lag also helps.

Amiran · 09/15/08, 1:24 AM

The only other trinket I have directly available is the Icon (should I use it or try and run for Quag's eye or the MGT trinket?) and as far as those bracers tracking down hearts on my server is next to impossible and my guild is still gearing people for mother.

As for the Mp5 issue lately its been a problem because my guild is dumping me in a group with 4 mages and I didn't even get wisdom tonight, but most of our fights last 4-5 minutes which I can easily maintain my mana bar for. My latency is usually <50 so that's not a problem.

Any other comments?

Moginheden · 09/17/08, 5:05 PM

Originally Posted by Amiran

The only other trinket I have directly available is the Icon (should I use it or try and run for Quag's eye or the MGT trinket?) and as far as those bracers tracking down hearts on my server is next to impossible and my guild is still gearing people for mother.

As for the Mp5 issue lately its been a problem because my guild is dumping me in a group with 4 mages and I didn't even get wisdom tonight, but most of our fights last 4-5 minutes which I can easily maintain my mana bar for. My latency is usually <50 so that's not a problem.

Any other comments?

Lag comes from 2 sources, the computer and the user. It doesn't matter how good a connection you have if you only hit the button once every minute. look at the combat log and see how far apart your casts are.

Are you threat capped? with only 1 point in subtlety your tank has to be very good for you to not pull if your putting out your max damage.

Are you comparing apples to oranges? Don't worry if your damage on RoS doesn't match your damage on Supremus, each fight has different reasons why you can't chaincast and some of them are more effective than others so your dps will vary.

As for trinkets do you use IS? If you use IS and MF or MF more than one target at a time, then timbals it better than icon. If you only use MF use the icon. There was a table a while back in this thread comparing most of the trinkets. currently you have both hex and icon equipped in armory. I can't test it as hexlord hates me but I thought they were on the same cooldown, if so get rid of the icon.