[Warrior] Tanking TPS sheet. - Page 2

Punscho · 05/04/07, 1:13 PM

Larsiak, there are no option for shield mastery because it's included in the stats you provide yourself, like cruelty.

And I wasn't sure that 1h mastery modified shield slam so I didn't add it. I've read it didn't apply to shield slam.

But about the block value, since it's not on your char screen in game I could do:
a) keep it as it is, and let you go up to a hard hitting monster and notice your block, or have an addon calculate it for you
or
b) make you fill out your block from gear and your strength and then let the sheet calulate it for you

The formula for block value is talented str/20+block_value_from_gear*1.3. The shield mastery multiplier doesn't affect the block you get from str strangely enough.

I could add impale as an option, but I ain't adding deep wounds.

Keep it coming and I'll update it when I get enough feedback.

Njial · 05/04/07, 3:47 PM

Just out of curiousity, why no deep wounds...too random and not enough tanks use it?

Punscho · 05/04/07, 4:01 PM

Because it's crap damage and thus crap threat and no tank would ever spec that way, really. On top of that it's a pain to implement in a good way since it overwrites on new crits.

Sidewalk · 05/05/07, 12:14 AM

Originally Posted by Njial

Just out of curiousity, why no deep wounds...too random and not enough tanks use it?

Real reason? you don't want to dot mobs as a tank.

If a CC breaks, you want to be able to hit it, and then forget it, to be re-cc'd. If you dot it then it can't be re-CC'd.

Njial · 05/05/07, 2:01 PM

Well at least in raids, doting mobs is not that big a deal.

mindfreek · 05/05/07, 9:02 PM

What would you say an average TPS is for T4 or equally geared warrior.

Schnappi · 05/06/07, 12:25 AM

Originally Posted by mindfreek

What would you say an average TPS is for T4 or equally geared warrior.

It depends on too many variables to give an easy answer.

Are you getting Windfury and SoE totems? Do you have an extra Warrior for (talented) Battle Shout? Is someone else taking care of TC/Demo Shout? Are you swimming in rage?

If you are in a sub-optimal group you will have a hard time to break 600+ consistently. If you are fully supported by the raid composition you can expect some very impressive figures. There are reports on these forums speaking of 1200 sustained TPS.

Moogul · 05/06/07, 12:43 AM

Do you have an extra Warrior for (talented) Battle Shout?

I don't know in which context you are describing this, but unless I'm taking a huge amount of damage, I tend to use battle shout over commanding when without other warriors in the group.

In 25-man raids, most fights qualify as 'huge amounts of damage', but in Karazhan I rarely run with Commanding (unless we have 2 warriors).

Punscho · 05/06/07, 7:40 AM

This sheet is about the average threat you deal, because comparing gear is always about the average. Of course you can have lucky streaks for maybe 20-30 seconds where you end up at an amazing TPS.

The difference between commaing and battle shout is as easy as enabling/disabling the battle shout buff in the sheet and look at the result. If I have enough (depends on the fight of course) health already there's no point in using commanding if the rest of the group are doing alright. Ap might scale threat badly but 300+ ap is quite a deal.

Schnappi · 05/07/07, 9:07 AM

Originally Posted by Moogul

I don't know in which context you are describing this, but unless I'm taking a huge amount of damage, I tend to use battle shout over commanding when without other warriors in the group.

In 25-man raids, most fights qualify as 'huge amounts of damage', but in Karazhan I rarely run with Commanding (unless we have 2 warriors).

I meant fights where those extra HP matter, not Attumen :p

Angryface · 05/07/07, 12:13 PM

I am currently unable to download the Excel form of this spreadsheet. Has the link busted? Can anyone upload a new version of it?

Thanks

NVM Found the updated link. Just skipped over it when I was reading everything. Sorry

Punscho · 05/10/07, 7:59 PM

I'm going to update the sheet this weekend, if you got anything you wanna add just say so the next few days and I'll look into it.

These things will be added:
* Shield slam and 1h mastery
* A more realistic windfury model (slightly less procs)
* Flametongue totem, mostly for comparison versus windfury
* The block field will be block from gear, and I'm adding agility/str fields and the sheet calcs the total block
* Impale in the talents section
* +2% threat enchant

Gaborn · 05/11/07, 5:16 AM

I've just downloaded the Excel version and I would like to point out a couple of errors.

- Shield Slam's Raw value (K6) is taking the block value bonus from the initial block value (B8) not from the one modified by str (F18)

- Sunder Armor TPS is modeled wrong. You aren't taking into account a possible Dodge, Parry or Miss. You are simply taking the Threat per Aplication value, multipling it by the number of aplications in that cycle, and then dividing by the cycle length.

I hope this helps, and nice spreadsheet BTW

Punscho · 05/11/07, 5:44 AM

The block section is changed in the new version so it's fixed.
And oh you're right about SA, forgot to add it with the other skills. Probably because I added it later since I always spec devastate

This also brought up another little mistake in that I just take the average damage from the skills counting in misses and avoidance but I don't take the average threat including misses of the bonus threat.
This is now fixed in the next version.

Thanks.

Punscho · 05/15/07, 2:54 PM

I uploaded the new version and it's in the first post. Cheers.

Bandagraph · 05/16/07, 6:37 PM

I am really liking this spreadsheet. I have spent most of my afternoon at work playing with it. If I get ambitious tomorrow, maybe I will take a crack at modeling TF. Doesn't seem like it would be too difficult.

Unless I am mistaken, the following values are approximately correct: Full Prot talents are assumed.

38 Block Value (before talents)= 1% Threat (Slightly less than 1% w/ WF down)
6.446 Weapon DPS = 1% Threat (1.6 speed weapon)
85 AP = 1% Threat
1.5% Crit = 1% Threat

These values may vary with differing gear levels, but at first glance they seemed to be independent of other gear (WF may make some small variances, but I am unsure). Anyway, these are some possible rules of thumb for comparing gear. Can anyone confirm these?

• Sservis · 05/17/07, 1:51 AM

While playing around in this spreadsheet, I either learned something or found an error.

Cell U9, is the AP contribution to Devistate attack damage normalized for a 2.4s speed weapon or is that an error and the formula should reference G2?

Punscho · 05/17/07, 2:49 AM

Yes, devastate is normalized. That's why it isn't useless with a fast weapon since the AP contribution will all be the same whatever the weapon.

PitiChatMignon · 05/18/07, 9:46 AM

I noticed you only count the crit part of LotP, but the heal part of ILotP is a non trivial aggro boost.

If you have 20 000 hp, the heal from IlotP is 800.
On average you should hit 4 specials each 6s (with SS, rev, dev, dev cycle) + 2 to 4 white hits (1.5 to 3.0 auto timer). Let's say totally 6 hits each 6s on average, with a 16% crit rate one should be a crit granting you a 800HP heal.
Heal aggro is 0.5 per heal : 800hp heal x0.5 x1.45 (def + defiance) = 580 threat per 6s, that's 96 TPS.

Of course this only occure if you crit one time each 6s exactly, but with ILotP limited to one proc each 6s and only 16% crit rate you cannot be sure to have a heal each 6s. Unfortunatley I have absolutly no idea how you can calculate this more accurately

However, I think ILotP should be added if you can as it could be a big part of threat.

Apate · 05/18/07, 10:42 AM

Originally Posted by PitiChatMignon

I noticed you only count the crit part of LotP, but the heal part of ILotP is a non trivial aggro boost.

If you have 20 000 hp, the heal from IlotP is 800.
On average you should hit 4 specials each 6s (with SS, rev, dev, dev cycle) + 2 to 4 white hits (1.5 to 3.0 auto timer). Let's say totally 6 hits each 6s on average, with a 16% crit rate one should be a crit granting you a 800HP heal.
Heal aggro is 0.5 per heal : 800hp heal x0.5 x1.45 (def + defiance) = 580 threat per 6s, that's 96 TPS.

Of course this only occure if you crit one time each 6s exactly, but with ILotP limited to one proc each 6s and only 16% crit rate you cannot be sure to have a heal each 6s. Unfortunatley I have absolutly no idea how you can calculate this more accurately

However, I think ILotP should be added if you can as it could be a big part of threat.

Is this confirmed or assumed? Lifebloom, for one example, does not work this way.

Asmik · 05/18/07, 10:47 AM

Improved Leader of the Pack has no threat on proc

Branar · 05/18/07, 12:14 PM

Lifebloom, for one example, does not work this way.

How does Lifebloom work? Do you mean it doesn't grant any agro at all, or the agro it grants isn't multiplied by defensive/defiance?

PitiChatMignon · 05/18/07, 1:05 PM

It is not the proc that grant aggro, it is only the heal because you heal yourself.

In you combat log it is written something like :
Your Improved leader of the pack heals you for 800
Unfortunaltery I have no log with this here.

Earthshield and pom work the same way and give you heal aggro.
Here some logs :

5/1 01:01:44.906 Your Prayer of Mending heals you for 1745.

5/1 00:40:47.031 Your Earth Shield heals you for 729.

For lifebloom, only the last tick works this way, the hot part of lifebloom count for the druid :

5/1 00:12:21.515 Beldechan gains 247 health from Narutoto 's Lifebloom.
5/1 00:12:22.609 Beldechan gains 248 health from Narutoto 's Lifebloom.
5/1 00:12:23.218 Beldechan 's Lifebloom heals Beldechan for 1205.

For Defensive stance and defiance I never thought it could not be applied to heals (bandage, health potions ..) or other effects but it is a good question.
On the defiance description it is written "Increases the threat generated by all your ATTACKS by 5/10/15% while in defensive stance", so we can think it doesn't apply to heals, but if you check in thottbot spells details :

Defiance : http://thottbot.com/s12789
Apply Aura: Mod Threat (All)
Value: 15

Defensive stance : http://thottbot.com/s7376
Apply Aura: Mod Threat (All)
Value: 30

And for this aura "Mod threat (all)" you can found salvation, which indeed is working for heals, so I think def stance and defiance should apply to self heals.

Apate · 05/18/07, 3:00 PM

Originally Posted by PitiChatMignon

It is not the proc that grant aggro, it is only the heal because you heal yourself.

I'm not ignorant of healing aggro, but there is something more complex at work from testing:
http://elitistjerks.com/showthread.p...244#post297244

I'm somewhat at a loss to explain exactly what's going on here.

Granted these tests were fairly quickly done, so if anything the only thing we can conclude is that the buff has no threat, the end-heal doesn't attribute threat to the recipient, and the heal produces significantly less threat than expected.

Punscho · 05/18/07, 4:24 PM

At the time you get aggro from imp LoTP but like every other heal you don't get aggro from overhealing and it's hard to make a good estimate how much overhealing you will do. In addition, the threat from the heal will be removed as of patch 2.1. It's in the patch notes.