I agree, Improved Heroic Strike, Improved Blood Rage and Rage Mastery are all better than Improved Sunder Armor, so I still do not understand why people take points in ISA. To unlock the 25+ talents in the Protection tree, IBR and Improved Shield Wall are better talents and bring exactly at 25 points. Even with 2 more talent points I would not take it and do something like 12/5/46

While it may be surprising to some, there are warriors that still use Sunder Armor over Devastate (the other protection warrior in my guild, for example).

COST

- Sunder Armor can be reduced to 9 rage through talents (Focused Rage and Improved SA).

- Devastate can be reduced to 12 rage through talents (Focused Rage)

PROS

- (Fully talented) Sunder Armor is cheaper and does a static, reliable amount of threat.

- Devastate scales (pathetically) with weapon damage and attack power. The main benefit here is that Devastate contributes damage and can crit.

- Devastate can trigger a weapon's chance on hit ability.

CONS

- Sunder Armor contributes no damage.

- Devastate is affected by armor and consequently can result in less threat than Sunder Armor. The last math that I'd read stated that Devastate needs to hit for 200 in order to be equal to the threat generated by Sunder Armor. Any less and you're inferior.

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In short, if your Devastates are hitting for more than 200 on average and rage is abundant then go with that after five sunders. If your Devastates suck or rage is more of an issue, stick with Sunder Armor; that's assuming of course that you've got SA down to 9 rage (which I do not).

Put simply, for reliable threat, some warriors go for the more rage efficient Improved Sunder Armor. Personally, I stack five and use Devastate.

With 5 sunders applied, the base damage of Devastate becomes greater than 200. It will always hit for more threat than Sunder, every single time.

Mine currently hits for over 280 with 5 sunders so it a bit more than sunder atm

dunno what you're talking about, my kara groups MT seems to average less than 200 on devastates with a king's defender...

Mohadeb - WWS

does this mean he should be using sunder instead of devastate? we're having some issues with our dps being threat-capped....

No, it means he should be using SS and Revenge every time they're up instead of...whenever he remembers it, it looks like. One attempt has more TC than SS. Ouch.

Touf: thanks. he tells me he's spamming shield block every time it's up and that produces rage generation issues =>threat generation issues for him.... i haven't been paying attention to his rage bar during fights so i'm not sure if that's reasonable or not. any thoughts?
Punscho: thanks muchly. also trying to get him to respec to drop imp shield bash, imp taunt, and imp revenge for cruelty and.... ?

5/5 parry in arms, 3/3 improved thunderclap in arms, 2/3 imp hs in arms, 5/5 cruelty in fury and the rest in prot making sure to pick up devastate, shield slam, shield mastery, imp shield block, 1h mastery, devastate and vitality.

he should only spam SB on bosses, on trash it's not needed, show him this thread, he'll pick it up.

It means he isn't putting up Sunder to 5 ranks before switching to Devastate. The only other thing I can think of is that he doesn't have 5/5 One-handed Specialization. The tooltip on Devastate is completely and utterly wrong. You get a certain amount of damage per rank of sunder applied, and then your bonus damage of 50% weapon. I'm not even sure the +35 applies normally, it may be worked into that base amount and what's causing that amount of damage.

Maybe he didn't train up all his ranks of Devastate? I'm really at a loss here, because theoretically it shouldn't be possible to hit for sub-200 on a 5-sundered mob.

I saw the threat value for devastate was listed as 101 (the base amount) for devastate. Does the spread sheet take into account once 5 sunders are stacked on the target for Devastate threat?

Thanks,
Madlibs

I like the info here about the skills, learned quite a bit for my first time posting here. I do have a question about sustaining TPS for fights beyond your own ability. I was discussing with my guild about self-healing aggro (Judgement of Light, PoM, Earth Shield, etc). Some seemed to think these were causing no threat for the tank, but some argued the opposite.

Does anyone here know 100% which work and do not work?

We only have one active Resto Druid in the guild here, and he claims it doesn't credit the person it's on, with it's final hit.

I have blue gear (except tankatronic goggles and sun eater) and I have the same issue. I hover around 400-700 TPS on Kara bosses, mostly around 550. There is just not enough rage. I think I should stop using TC and/or demo to get more rage. Yesterday we killed Prince for the first time, even there I was rage starved most of the time. I cannot skip demo/TC there, I would feel faulty if we wiped in phase2 due to a burst. On Kara trash, equipping some hit and block value I generate 700-1100 TPS with ease. I'm a bit ashamed of my threat on bosses.

About devastate: It hits for around 200 even with green tankgear, green 60 DPS weapons. If it's much below 200, then it's always a blocked hit for me. Recount showed me an avereage of 210-220 points of devastate damage with green gear. I think it's always worth using threatwise if you have the rage.

You don't have any fury/arms/OT warrior with you? He could simply apply TC/Demo for you if rage is a problem. If that's not helping you could always try to get MD at start, that should be ahead of others so you could easly apply TC/Demo (if there is no warrior) or just generate threat. Good "rotation" should keep you before others with that (of course without mindless spaming of buttons).

Ps.
You could drop 2/5 Tactical Mastery for BRage, would be nicer to get more rage faster, jump in and hit with SS.

Offtank is a feral druid, so we could sort the demoshout issue, but not the TC I always get misdirection at pulls, I request it if they forget Initial aggro is not a problem. I just don't have enough rage inflow to maintain a high threat cycle and mitigation moves at the same time. I know how to prioritize my abilities, I'm using SS/revenge on all cooldowns, applying anything else only if rage allows.
Probably I should start using my threat gear and/or get rid of demo/TC on easier bosses.

If that's the case then leave Demo for Druid. Karazhan bosses aren't soo powerfull hiting till Prince. Can't get a look at your gear but try to check if you for example didn't put too much in dodge for such lvl of bosses, dodge is always pain in teh ass for rage (if you use Moroes trinket switch with GAB/Hit so you could get more threat even if you still got rage problems). Anyway taking off TC would give you bigger burst for you - more rage. Maybe this could give you a little of help.

One other question, with the current changes to WF Totem, in a max threat situation (Teron) as ~35 - 45% of a tanks threat comes from normal white hits, would it be better to fill in with Heroic or Devestate in between SS, Rev?

Hardest thing i find for threat gen is my miss% Tylerlee - WWS thats an aweful lot of aggro missed and drops my tps down, currently running at 355 swords with 89-110 hit depending on gear.

I got pretty similar set of gear when i go for maximum armour, and yes, TC really hurts rage gen when your avoiding so much that i tend to leave it off and just keep Demo up. I only tend to use it on the hard parts of fights, silences, fears aoe raid dmg etc.

Since the guys in the [Rogue/Warrior] Weapon Skill Adjustment Discussion has done such a great job in figuring out the benefits of weapon skill I'll try really hard to give you the latest and greatest version this week.

I also removed the Devastate/Sunder comparison columns and replaced it with just a single, slightly more detailed, column and added devastate as a talent. If you don't activate it, the sheets just uses sunder armor instead.

I also added haste rating to the sheet, although a weak stat threat wise since it's around the T5 bonus it might be interesting, plus it's always good with a referance.

If I have time I'll add a (more or less) crude version of reactive healing effect like Earth shield and PoM since the works in [Warrior] Sustained TPS / WWSed covers some of those issues.

It'd also be interesting if someone WWS'd Teron (see the thread above) and calculated the threat and compared it to the sheet's threat. The interesting part here is of course the ratio of heroic strikes vs white swings, and the actual cycle time. Handing me the real wow log would be nice aswell.

Has the threat generation changed for warriors in 2.2?

I.e. I am a tank but at Gruul, dpsing, dwing TF+ KD I noticed that Omen indicated my TPS on par with the MT's (granted low 500 numbers)

And later on, while tanking Al'ar (me in 2/5 T5 the other 2 tanks in T5 with BT drops, Unbreakble will and Mallet of Tides, vs my TF):

And besides Al'ar seemly being broken and instance servers crashing on us, what I was trying to explain was that in Phase one he just stayed one me on 2-3 rotations....Didn't budge, for what it seemed forever; the raid leader mentioned it repeatedly in vent (he is also MT and sees everything) and gave instructions...I have to admit that on the last attempt we didn't have DBM notifications turned on, but the fact is, that once he got to me he kinda didn't rotate anymore or at least not for an extented period of time...

While it is true that I am mashing my keys (something that these guys heard as well now, lol) and I also aim for ideal threat generation cycles (and gear, like I use 37% block), I suspect that it was TF (who's threat probably remained unchanged). Lucky me, I guess.

I will have to study the numbers, since this is based solely on what I saw last night at Al'ar and Gruul.
BTW is there any combat log that can capture TPS?

I heard about Mt's from other guilds and servers having their TPS messed up, what do you think?

Thanks

Al'ar did this already before the latest patch. Sometimes he stayed for about three times as normal in the same position. The only real change in this patch is the 15 seconds between each "Meteor" , which was already mentioned as a bug, but hasn`t been hotfixed on the EU-Servers until now.
Overall threat generation seems to be pretty normal for me.

I didn't saw any problems with my TPS yestarday too, maybe you'r too supersensitive with all these patches?