KalCorp

Anyway to add in ThunderFurry Proc. Should not be that hard. its 300 damge @ 20% hit. on normal and other attacks like revenge. this would resolve some issues with people on whats better TF,KD,MOT and others.

I started to do it just to see. but i think it might be better if you do it.'

Thanks

 

Ulise

Personally I am still trying to figure out if Thunderfury is still not preferable to Unbreakable Will and Brutalizer in some fights such as Bloodboil, RoS Phase II, etc?

From the threat point of view mainly.

 

Borodin

It's behind The Brutalizer on Threat: the DPS is too far behind and you would be giving up critical Expertise Rating, not to mention Stamina, Defence and again Expertise (again) from a mitigation p.o.v.

Thunderfury (including the proc) is ~83.9dps by the way. You can factor that a little higher as the Nature component ignores Armour but it's still a way behind 100dps.

But Expertise is the killer and I found TF replacable even at Mallet of the Tides. I rated TF about equal to King's Defender.

 

KalCorp

Where are you getting this from? i been looking for information on this but cant find any real place that has the facts and not alot personal views.

Using this file with TF added the TF proc alone is normal 300 damage but (@ 90%) 270 damage in defense mode( as any one tanking would be in that) + 130% threat for same stance + defiance talent 115% + Threat ench 2% = 152% threat when a real tank is tanking. So the Proc of TF is 270 damage and that should be about 412 threat. Now going by a 4 skill cycle: ss, rev, dev, dev + full hs and 20%(lowest end) that comes out to 54 DPS and 82 TPS just for the TF proc. However i think the 20% is not correct as i see it proc all the time. I had it down to 17 proc's in a 20 sec fight on trash mobs. goting by that the proc was around 90 DPS and 137 TPS.


Now i only have one T5 and the other weapon i have is MOT /KD and i have to say TF is higher DPS and TPS then them. I have no issues tanking in SSC with TF. Unbreakable Will and Brutalizer should be way above TF. But i beleive its tied to gear. i will explain.....

There will be a point where my gear will be getting better. Higher Str, AGI, hit rating and crit%. This will in time change how MOT hits and will increase. Sad to say for TF it will only increase the normal damage part and not the proc. Starting to make it less and less DPS and TPS over MOT. However at that time there will be other weapons to get that will be better like Unbreakable Will and Brutalizer.

Updating this sheet with TF proc might help the tanks that dont have all the best gear but somehow got TF.

I added it in and it looks ok. but i need someone to check it out.

 

Borodin

I did not quote a TPS estimate for TF but an estimate of it's DPS factoring the Proc on top of it's base 53.9dps
Literally just to give you an impression of the DPS of the weapon expressing the proc as part of it's DPS.

At around 6ppm for 300 damage a time that's +30dps hence you can view TF as an ~83.9dps weapon (people usually quote 80-90dps but this is how I get my figure).
People did massive test of TF's proc rate and came up with ever decreasing figures (one of the the first owner claimed it was >30% but by the time people had done many thousands of swings the estimates were down to 17-19%).

Stance / Threat modifiers are the same for everyone assuming Defence/Defiance.

If you wanted to see the true threat difference then use the Spreadsheet with the Brutalizer vs TFs stats (i.e. 1.9 speed, 53.9dps, no Expertise, some Agility) and manually add on the Threat from 6ppm of the Thunderfury Effect Proc yourself - at the end.

I make this:
270 x 1.495 = 403.65 Threat per Proc.
At 6ppm that's 2421.9 TPM
40.365 TPS

What I can't remember is the innate Threat from the Thunderfury Resistance Debuff - I used to be about 200 but they nerfed it to near insignificance.

I will run my theory through the TPS Spreadsheet myself and report back here shortly. Incidentally 2 weeks ago I did a KZ clear and started out with TF for "fun" but went back to my Brutalizer when I consistantly felt I was underperforming or even more rage-starved due to lack of white damage.
I am happy to do a more empirical test with Omen

OK here's my results from the Threatdown 4.1 Spreadsheet:

Using The Brutalizer it estimates 1051.8 TPS
Changing only the stats relevant to a switch to TF I get 920.31 TPS

That's a deficit of 131.49 TPS to make up with the TF Proc. My conservative estimate that the TF Proc gives another 40.365 TPS leaves > 90 TPS gap. I doubt the most optimistic calculation of TF threat can close that gap.

 

Edgewalker

Those tanks are, quite simply, bad.
Unless you have a +Swords Racial, Brutalizer is better for practically every aspect of tanking, with the exception of maybe progression on Shahraz post parry hotifixand a tank looking for max mitigation.

 

KalCorp

Thanks

Cant wait to get Brutalizer. But at this time stuck with MOT and most people ask why i dont use it over TF. but then I dont see much of a Difference with that one.

But how are you getting "At 6ppm that's 2421.9 TPM 40.365 TPS" It comes up as 54 DPS and 82 TPS if i use the same Formula we are using for anyother weapon in the threatdown file.

i pluged it into the file at 20%rate. Mit damge is 300 avg damage is 60 and threat comes to 93. then in the 4 skill cycle ss,rev,dev,dev + full HS 6.6Cycle time. its uses are 6.474 + to all the uses of HH,revenge and devastatte. but not SS. so thats 6.474 uses. TPS is then 91.503 and TPS is 9.8% at 0 rps. i thoguht this was wrong because i dont see where the damage is chagne to 90% for def mode. so if i chagne to 270 damage its mit 270, avd damage is 54 and thrat is 84. then in same cycle its 82.352 tps and 8.34%

i will update the threatdown file and send it up for review maybe ther is something wrong but it the same numbers used for the other skills. so unless everything is wrong in there. it could be close to what it does right?

And ont he 20% owever anyone with the sword today and uses it know that somehow the proc is difference for each mob. Where some proc are 80-90+ and others are lower. Some are immune to it. so if i hit alot of them the numbers are going done. since thats 0%. Since we are talking about tanking Boss fights i like to get the numbers for them. I will try to get some counts when i do it.

I was looking at something with just dev

Devastate is calculated as the following…
(Weapon Damage / 2) + (35 * Number of Sunders) - Mitigation
For simplicity sake, we’ll assume Average Weapon Damage, 5 sunders, no mitigation and a 15% crit rate for this comparison so the formula becomes…
(Average Weapon Damage*1.15 / 2) + (175)

For me Mallet of the Tides is listed as 145 DPS and ThunderFurry is 102.6 DPS as stated in game char info. ( speed, damage and AP all into this number)

Mallet of the Tides ((145*1.15) / 2) +175 = 258.375
ThunderFurry ((102.6*1.15) / 2) +175 = 233.995 + (proc of 270 * .20) = 287.995

And this fits into the nubmer and what i been seeing.

 

KalCorp

I just download 4.1 so i can update. I have office 2007. but the files is missing information

i get #NA in each cycle and for Thnder clap. i might be able to fix. if i know what it was.

What is the 4 cycle?

I have
Heroic strike
#N/A
Shield slam
Revenge
Devastate

also Does any one know if the + 13-30 nature damage is added in the 53.9 DPS it has listed? or is that extra daamge after that. becasue i never added 13-30 extra damgae every hit to any formulas

 

bagelbite

Yes, it is.

Keep in Thunderfury requires multiple calculations to model it properly.

1. A normal calculation for the physical damage portion of it, which is 41.84~ dps. Obviously this portion is affected by avoidance/crit/glance events, as well as damage reduction from armor.
2. A seperate calculation for the nature portion of its damage range. Affected by avoidance, and probably crit and glance events. Not affected by damage reduction from armor.
3. A calculation for the 300 dmg nature proc. This portion must include avoidance(can't proc off a miss), and resist chance. This portion is not part of the damage range.

 

Ulise

Hello,

Borodin, I think you are mistaken: TF is way better for threat then KD.
Kal, let me know what you'll think when you get Brutalizer; I think Brutalizer is the best for single target and regular tanking...Question is if threat wise TF is not still superior, but the avoidance you get from Brutalizer's expertise didn't let me test that again in fights such as Bloodboil in two or Teron...Brutalizer itself can't be too bad TPS wise, since I got 957 TPS yesterday with it tanking Teron, while making extremely sure that I had shield block up, while also doing TC, demo, commanding and in general being conservative with my cycles (i.e. being ready to use timers to heal myself +SW at any given time). I am just an OT now and I don't get to MT so much and when I do, I tend to stick to Brutalizer, just not to risk it. Another thing is that there are no other tanks in my guild to push me in terms of TPS, so, like I said the other advantages Brutalizer give, are determinant at this point - unless you guys can prove me wrong (or I get to experiment more in the future).

Edgewalker, yeah the MT in my guild is a human with Mallet, mainly due to expertise, but the TPS doesn't justify it (well to be fair, the comparision should be done in the hands of the same person, b/c the cycles are different, but I am not getting the Mallet ever; already have UBW as well, which, as NE, I never use).

 

MalkavTM

Really nice work

Thanks for the useful info!

 

Magnatitus

I too am getting a lot of #N/A in the spreadsheet. All the TPS% have it, as well as the Skills under Skill Cycles under heroic strike and main hand.

Anyone know how to fix this.


EDIT*** I am using Office 2007 as well. Maybe its a Office 07 thing

 

MIII

...

 

zork

I have to add one thing. In our MH raid yesterday evening my Thunderfury proc hits Winterchill for 283-284 Damage. I don't know why this is happenig, maybe it has something to do with the natur resistance debuff from Thunderfury or there is another debuff that increases nature damage.

RothUI Download - Tank Guide - Avoidance Calc - Threat Calc - Rothar - darkmasters.de

 

Mode

You were probably eating stormstrike charges.