Fury Warrior - How Much +Hit is overboard

oraclephenom · 05/03/07, 3:32 PM

I am a Mortal Strike PvP warrior who converted to DW Fury for PvE. I have replaced alot of Crit to substitute for +hit. I was looking around the forums and couldnt find a cap on +hit or a prime number to shoot for before I start to work on my crit again.

At the moment I dont have a great off-hand. I just took my tanking weapon and threw it in my off-hand because its the best I have. In my opinion it is too fast and I really dont like the numbers my it is giving me. From what I understand I will see a substantial increase in dps from the rule of .3 seconds, where my off-hand is faster then my mainhand by .3 seconds.

My armory link -
http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/?#...n=Oraclephenom

any information would be appreciated. Thank you in advance.

Beatrice · 05/03/07, 3:34 PM

I feel oddly befuddled, but, what is the rule of .3 seconds?

Does it relate to the new rage formulae some how?

Oh, I suppose I could add some substance past that:

I would say go for around 14-15% hit. I run around 12-13 right now, but that lacks another point of precision and I'm half tank spec at present. 16-17% would also yield quite solid results.

Remember that you have a base missrate of 24% while dual wielding for your white damage. A higher +hit% will help this, however, after about 5% (7% for bosses? or is it 8% now?) you'll see slightly diminishing returns since yellow damage does not receive the dw penalty.

Surion · 05/03/07, 4:28 PM

Talked a bit about it in this thread here:
http://elitistjerks.com/f31/

Reposting mine from there:
(minus the stuff that doesn't apply to your question)

Originally Posted by Gristle
Apologies for the very slight derail, but what +hit rating would you consider sufficient for a DW fury warrior? My target +hit% is lower even than the OP's current, and you saying this has given me a moment of panic! Bearing in mind that for Fury you want to be aiming for a 'sweet spot' on your gear between the holy trinity of +hit, +crit and AP.

I'm finding more and more with the lacklustre DPS warrior itemisation in TBC that I'm at a point where I find it hard to improve one without the other two suffering.

I was aiming for +12% hit (vs lvl 73 mobs), 30%+ crit and as much AP as its possible to stack on there. Am I missing something really important?

With hit rating I have found that it is usually a matter of opinion. I personally run +14% atm (with talent). I wont go over 15%. You usually wont need to stack hit since the only really good fury items have it anyways, and there are actually some decent options out there for hit. 2p doomplate is a very important part of my gear setup.
Crit is your (arguably) most important stat after hit. 30% is a nice sweet spot, but the higher you get, the higher your flurry uptime and coincidentally, your damage. The only concern comes from aggro since wars have no way of dropping it. AP doesnt makes as big of an impact. General trade off if I recall correctly is 40ap ~ 1crit.

oraclephenom · 05/03/07, 4:33 PM

Originally Posted by Surion

Talked a bit about it in this thread here:

Crit is your (arguably) most important stat after hit. 30% is a nice sweet spot, but the higher you get, the higher your flurry uptime and coincidentally, your damage. The only concern comes from aggro since wars have no way of dropping it. AP doesnt makes as big of an impact. General trade off if I recall correctly is 40ap ~ 1crit.

So your saying you would sacrafice 40 ap, or 20 strength to increase your crit rating by 1 percent?

Anyone else with any opinions?

Erongg · 05/03/07, 4:39 PM

Really, opinions aren't needed. If you have math/reasoning/facts, please share!

Surion · 05/03/07, 5:06 PM

Originally Posted by oraclephenom

So your saying you would sacrafice 40 ap, or 20 strength to increase your crit rating by 1 percent?

Anyone else with any opinions?

Unless you have a silly amount of both, yes. If you dont have atleast 30% crit then yes.
Edit: can be noted that 20str can technicly be judged as more than 40ap with BoK.

Erongg, I posted my opinion because he asked, perhaps I used the wrong word, maybe preference. If your looking for straight math to sift through there is a quite nice thread started by Deathwing that includes a great spreadsheet now taken over by Elic found here:

DPS Warrior Spreadsheet

(Note: Dont use the version of the spreadsheet found at the beg of the thread, Elic posts his updated spreadsheets in new replies).

However the formula is still a bit shakey on the spreadsheet as its slowly being tuned better and better.

DW miss rate is 24%; so anything below will produce misses and with white damage generally being 30%+ of your overall damage, more hit doesnt hurt. But yellow attacks dont have nearly that hit cap; most warriors that I speak to tend to go for anywhere between 14 and 18% +hit (after talent), but again it is a matter of personal preferance since no spreadsheets seem to accurately represent this atm.

I personally shoot for ~15%, I don't see miss strings and going past sacrifices too much in AP/Crit for too little gains. But again, depends on your playstyle and preference.

I reach my hit rating without actively stacking it. 2p Doomplate and/or some good gear choices easily hit this number.

Edit 2: As for Crit vs AP. I am a critwhore and will stack it to no end; the higher your flurry uptime the more dps you will do period, which is why it is judged higher than AP. With current gear your not going to reach the crazy amounts of anything that were attainable at 60 without severely gimping yourself in every other department. At 60 I was easily over 50% crit fully raid buffed; this wont be doable now. 30% unbuffed crit is a good spot to aim for if you are still in your 20's and I would suggest stacking it instead of AP until it reaches that point.

Punscho · 05/03/07, 5:24 PM

After those 8-9% for specials you will gain much less from hit.

Suppose 50% of your total damage is white damage, then only 50% or your damage will benefit from more hit. So if you are in a situation where you have to chose between 1% hit or 1% crit, 1% crit is almost twice as good since it improves all your damage not just the white damage. In reality talking about hit and crit rating, hit is about 2/3 as cheap as crit, and thus 1 point of hit rating is about 2/3 worth of 1 point of crit rating assuming 1% crit is twice as good as 1% hit. This is also assuming you deal 50/50 white /yellow. More heroic and crit wins even more.

And of course, you will need enough hit to not hit the crit cap where your miss rate makes you lose crits.

There is no _really_ simple answer.

oraclephenom · 05/04/07, 3:17 AM

Well Ive been thinking about sacraficing my strength gems for +crit just a pain in the ass because ive been wasting gold left and right. Tonight in kara I was top dps so I must be doing something right. I appreciate all the help guys.

Speech · 05/04/07, 4:26 AM

Originally Posted by Punscho

After those 8-9% for specials you will gain much less from hit.

Suppose 50% of your total damage is white damage, then only 50% or your damage will benefit from more hit. So if you are in a situation where you have to chose between 1% hit or 1% crit, 1% crit is almost twice as good since it improves all your damage not just the white damage. In reality talking about hit and crit rating, hit is about 2/3 as cheap as crit, and thus 1 point of hit rating is about 2/3 worth of 1 point of crit rating assuming 1% crit is twice as good as 1% hit. This is also assuming you deal 50/50 white /yellow. More heroic and crit wins even more.

And of course, you will need enough hit to not hit the crit cap where your miss rate makes you lose crits.

There is no _really_ simple answer.

You are forgetting that +hit affects your rage generation. If you are missing those white hits you are not generating any rage.

IceBox · 05/04/07, 5:30 AM

Theoretically it's the more the better as long as you don't gimp any other stats to hard (e.g. 20% hit, 15% crit)

I'm currently on about ~1680 AP, 15% Hit and 27.8% Crit in Zerker with Imp. Berserker Stance and Precision and I'm feeling well but my crit is a bit low for unbuffed situation like 5man Instances or farming. But currently I'm also wearing some Gladiator's stuff because I didn't get any other item :>

Ren · 05/04/07, 6:02 AM

Any hit over +27.6% is overboard. Jokes aside, you'll see best results stacking +8 strength gems over anything else. In my dps set specced full Fury (17/44) I run with 2097 AP, 24% crit and 8% hit in Berserker stance. That's without battle shout.

Fury warriors just get a lot more out of AP than any other class. BT is a straight AP to damage skill. Dual-wielding rewards AP stacking too, as does Improved Berserker Stance.

Igniter · 05/04/07, 6:33 AM

Originally Posted by Speech

You are forgetting that +hit affects your rage generation. If you are missing those white hits you are not generating any rage.

and windfury!

Chimp · 05/04/07, 7:08 AM

The rage & flurry mechanics makes Fury DPS quite susceptible to big dips in DPS … a miss streak that leaves you with little/no rage for instant attacks can be devastating to your dps. No instant attacks for a few seconds is a massive hit to your dps, and greatly increases the chance of flurry dropping off. The same thing occurs with strings of non-crits. Flurry dropping off for a considerable time leaves you doing 25% less white dmg (which results in less rage with which to retrigger flurry).

In my opinion, minimising the occurrences of these 'unlucky streaks' is a high priority when looking at gear selection. I always feel the need to get solid levels of Hit/Crit, to the point where flurry is nearly always up, and you don't get miss-streaks. This gives your dps a lot more consistency. Then pile on AP as a priority (as with Imp berserker and the returns from BT, fury gets great returns from AP/strength) with crit as the next priority (as crit gives the best returns in rage gain).

Punscho · 05/04/07, 7:45 AM

This is quite a hard problem to model since static modelling (sheets) are just averages. To really nail it you have to use a simulator. Now that would be interesting, and alot better for calculating the impact of hit and crit.

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't really recommend anyone staying at just 9% hit, but considering the gear avilable I guess it's kinda hard to stay at just 9% including talents. But hit do decrease alot after those first 9% and I would rate it a little worse than the same amount of crit rating, except for your execute spam, where hit is really important. Then again, having 2 really fast weapons probably has a larger impact on your execute spam than a couple of percent more hit.

Hit is good, but you shouldn't go nuts about it. If you see alot of long miss streaks - try to improve your hit. If you don't get that many - go for crit or AP. Also, longer miss streaks can be countered by keeping a larger rage buffer.

Ren · 05/04/07, 8:58 AM

DPSing in raids isn't about minimizing streaky output. All that matters at the end of a boss fight is how much damage you yourself contributed. Strength point for point is worth more than crit rating or hit rating, and that's why I stack it. Sure, you may experience streaks of misses or hits, but if you stack AP, the times you do hit, you hit a whole heck of a lot harder. Bloodthirst is the second fastest-scaling ability in the game (after Shield Slam) and it's foolish not to abuse it.