I am a Mortal Strike PvP warrior who converted to DW Fury for PvE. I have replaced alot of Crit to substitute for +hit. I was looking around the forums and couldnt find a cap on +hit or a prime number to shoot for before I start to work on my crit again.
At the moment I dont have a great off-hand. I just took my tanking weapon and threw it in my off-hand because its the best I have. In my opinion it is too fast and I really dont like the numbers my it is giving me. From what I understand I will see a substantial increase in dps from the rule of .3 seconds, where my off-hand is faster then my mainhand by .3 seconds.
I feel oddly befuddled, but, what is the rule of .3 seconds?
Does it relate to the new rage formulae some how?
Oh, I suppose I could add some substance past that:
I would say go for around 14-15% hit. I run around 12-13 right now, but that lacks another point of precision and I'm half tank spec at present. 16-17% would also yield quite solid results.
Remember that you have a base missrate of 24% while dual wielding for your white damage. A higher +hit% will help this, however, after about 5% (7% for bosses? or is it 8% now?) you'll see slightly diminishing returns since yellow damage does not receive the dw penalty.
Reposting mine from there:
(minus the stuff that doesn't apply to your question)
Originally Posted by Gristle
Apologies for the very slight derail, but what +hit rating would you consider sufficient for a DW fury warrior? My target +hit% is lower even than the OP's current, and you saying this has given me a moment of panic! Bearing in mind that for Fury you want to be aiming for a 'sweet spot' on your gear between the holy trinity of +hit, +crit and AP.
I'm finding more and more with the lacklustre DPS warrior itemisation in TBC that I'm at a point where I find it hard to improve one without the other two suffering.
I was aiming for +12% hit (vs lvl 73 mobs), 30%+ crit and as much AP as its possible to stack on there. Am I missing something really important?
With hit rating I have found that it is usually a matter of opinion. I personally run +14% atm (with talent). I wont go over 15%. You usually wont need to stack hit since the only really good fury items have it anyways, and there are actually some decent options out there for hit. 2p doomplate is a very important part of my gear setup.
Crit is your (arguably) most important stat after hit. 30% is a nice sweet spot, but the higher you get, the higher your flurry uptime and coincidentally, your damage. The only concern comes from aggro since wars have no way of dropping it. AP doesnt makes as big of an impact. General trade off if I recall correctly is 40ap ~ 1crit.
Crit is your (arguably) most important stat after hit. 30% is a nice sweet spot, but the higher you get, the higher your flurry uptime and coincidentally, your damage. The only concern comes from aggro since wars have no way of dropping it. AP doesnt makes as big of an impact. General trade off if I recall correctly is 40ap ~ 1crit.
So your saying you would sacrafice 40 ap, or 20 strength to increase your crit rating by 1 percent?
So your saying you would sacrafice 40 ap, or 20 strength to increase your crit rating by 1 percent?
Anyone else with any opinions?
Unless you have a silly amount of both, yes. If you dont have atleast 30% crit then yes.
Edit: can be noted that 20str can technicly be judged as more than 40ap with BoK.
Erongg, I posted my opinion because he asked, perhaps I used the wrong word, maybe preference. If your looking for straight math to sift through there is a quite nice thread started by Deathwing that includes a great spreadsheet now taken over by Elic found here:
(Note: Dont use the version of the spreadsheet found at the beg of the thread, Elic posts his updated spreadsheets in new replies).
However the formula is still a bit shakey on the spreadsheet as its slowly being tuned better and better.
DW miss rate is 24%; so anything below will produce misses and with white damage generally being 30%+ of your overall damage, more hit doesnt hurt. But yellow attacks dont have nearly that hit cap; most warriors that I speak to tend to go for anywhere between 14 and 18% +hit (after talent), but again it is a matter of personal preferance since no spreadsheets seem to accurately represent this atm.
I personally shoot for ~15%, I don't see miss strings and going past sacrifices too much in AP/Crit for too little gains. But again, depends on your playstyle and preference.
I reach my hit rating without actively stacking it. 2p Doomplate and/or some good gear choices easily hit this number.
Edit 2: As for Crit vs AP. I am a critwhore and will stack it to no end; the higher your flurry uptime the more dps you will do period, which is why it is judged higher than AP. With current gear your not going to reach the crazy amounts of anything that were attainable at 60 without severely gimping yourself in every other department. At 60 I was easily over 50% crit fully raid buffed; this wont be doable now. 30% unbuffed crit is a good spot to aim for if you are still in your 20's and I would suggest stacking it instead of AP until it reaches that point.
After those 8-9% for specials you will gain much less from hit.
Suppose 50% of your total damage is white damage, then only 50% or your damage will benefit from more hit. So if you are in a situation where you have to chose between 1% hit or 1% crit, 1% crit is almost twice as good since it improves all your damage not just the white damage. In reality talking about hit and crit rating, hit is about 2/3 as cheap as crit, and thus 1 point of hit rating is about 2/3 worth of 1 point of crit rating assuming 1% crit is twice as good as 1% hit. This is also assuming you deal 50/50 white /yellow. More heroic and crit wins even more.
And of course, you will need enough hit to not hit the crit cap where your miss rate makes you lose crits.
Well Ive been thinking about sacraficing my strength gems for +crit just a pain in the ass because ive been wasting gold left and right. Tonight in kara I was top dps so I must be doing something right. I appreciate all the help guys.
After those 8-9% for specials you will gain much less from hit.
Suppose 50% of your total damage is white damage, then only 50% or your damage will benefit from more hit. So if you are in a situation where you have to chose between 1% hit or 1% crit, 1% crit is almost twice as good since it improves all your damage not just the white damage. In reality talking about hit and crit rating, hit is about 2/3 as cheap as crit, and thus 1 point of hit rating is about 2/3 worth of 1 point of crit rating assuming 1% crit is twice as good as 1% hit. This is also assuming you deal 50/50 white /yellow. More heroic and crit wins even more.
And of course, you will need enough hit to not hit the crit cap where your miss rate makes you lose crits.
There is no _really_ simple answer.
You are forgetting that +hit affects your rage generation. If you are missing those white hits you are not generating any rage.
Theoretically it's the more the better as long as you don't gimp any other stats to hard (e.g. 20% hit, 15% crit)
I'm currently on about ~1680 AP, 15% Hit and 27.8% Crit in Zerker with Imp. Berserker Stance and Precision and I'm feeling well but my crit is a bit low for unbuffed situation like 5man Instances or farming. But currently I'm also wearing some Gladiator's stuff because I didn't get any other item :>
Any hit over +27.6% is overboard. Jokes aside, you'll see best results stacking +8 strength gems over anything else. In my dps set specced full Fury (17/44) I run with 2097 AP, 24% crit and 8% hit in Berserker stance. That's without battle shout.
Fury warriors just get a lot more out of AP than any other class. BT is a straight AP to damage skill. Dual-wielding rewards AP stacking too, as does Improved Berserker Stance.
The rage & flurry mechanics makes Fury DPS quite susceptible to big dips in DPS … a miss streak that leaves you with little/no rage for instant attacks can be devastating to your dps. No instant attacks for a few seconds is a massive hit to your dps, and greatly increases the chance of flurry dropping off. The same thing occurs with strings of non-crits. Flurry dropping off for a considerable time leaves you doing 25% less white dmg (which results in less rage with which to retrigger flurry).
In my opinion, minimising the occurrences of these 'unlucky streaks' is a high priority when looking at gear selection. I always feel the need to get solid levels of Hit/Crit, to the point where flurry is nearly always up, and you don't get miss-streaks. This gives your dps a lot more consistency. Then pile on AP as a priority (as with Imp berserker and the returns from BT, fury gets great returns from AP/strength) with crit as the next priority (as crit gives the best returns in rage gain).
This is quite a hard problem to model since static modelling (sheets) are just averages. To really nail it you have to use a simulator. Now that would be interesting, and alot better for calculating the impact of hit and crit.
Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't really recommend anyone staying at just 9% hit, but considering the gear avilable I guess it's kinda hard to stay at just 9% including talents. But hit do decrease alot after those first 9% and I would rate it a little worse than the same amount of crit rating, except for your execute spam, where hit is really important. Then again, having 2 really fast weapons probably has a larger impact on your execute spam than a couple of percent more hit.
Hit is good, but you shouldn't go nuts about it. If you see alot of long miss streaks - try to improve your hit. If you don't get that many - go for crit or AP. Also, longer miss streaks can be countered by keeping a larger rage buffer.
Last edited by Punscho : 05/04/07 at 7:51 AM.
Reason: rage bfufer thingy
DPSing in raids isn't about minimizing streaky output. All that matters at the end of a boss fight is how much damage you yourself contributed. Strength point for point is worth more than crit rating or hit rating, and that's why I stack it. Sure, you may experience streaks of misses or hits, but if you stack AP, the times you do hit, you hit a whole heck of a lot harder. Bloodthirst is the second fastest-scaling ability in the game (after Shield Slam) and it's foolish not to abuse it.
DPSing in raids isn't about minimizing streaky output. All that matters at the end of a boss fight is how much damage you yourself contributed. Strength point for point is worth more than crit rating or hit rating, and that's why I stack it. Sure, you may experience streaks of misses or hits, but if you stack AP, the times you do hit, you hit a whole heck of a lot harder. Bloodthirst is the second fastest-scaling ability in the game (after Shield Slam) and it's foolish not to abuse it.
But how have determined the 'worth' of each stat? I'm assuming you have plugged the numbers into one of the Warrior DPS spreadsheets and taken that information as fact.
As the poster above me mentioned, the only way to accurately model a Fury Warriors dps would be to run multiple simulations and average the results. Excel sheets that calculate Fury Warrior DPS just work off averages ... for example, they might work out that over a 10 minute fight you generate on average 10,000 rage and the sheet will have to assume that it is evenly distributed throughout the fight, therefore you can BT/MS every 6 seconds. In reality, however, mis-streaks, streaks of non-crits, might mean you have to delay 1 in every 6 BT's by 3 seconds … all of a sudden, instead of getting 10 BT's a minute, its down to 9, which is a lot of dmg lost.
But how have determined the 'worth' of each stat? I'm assuming you have plugged the numbers into one of the Warrior DPS spreadsheets and taken that information as fact.
As the poster above me mentioned, the only way to accurately model a Fury Warriors dps would be to run multiple simulations and average the results. Excel sheets that calculate Fury Warrior DPS just work off averages ... for example, they might work out that over a 10 minute fight you generate on average 10,000 rage and the sheet will have to assume that it is evenly distributed throughout the fight, therefore you can BT/MS every 6 seconds. In reality, however, mis-streaks, streaks of non-crits, might mean you have to delay 1 in every 6 BT's by 3 seconds … all of a sudden, instead of getting 10 BT's a minute, its down to 9, which is a lot of dmg lost.
I would like to know where you got point for point in worth of each stat (what actual formula I mean) because the general accepted version atm is 40ap ~ 1%crit.
And agreeing with Chimp, miss and non crit streaks are the only thing that limit me in raids, limits in a big way infact. It is easy to see the differance in your dps output on 2 attempts on a mob where one you get a nasty non hit or crit streak in the fight and the other attempt you don't. Infact for short fights like Kazzak, it can diminish your DPS by far.
Besides aggro, the biggest limiting factor on your dps will be misses and non-crits, meaning you cant refresh Rampage and need to stack it again, like Chimp said you can't keep your cycle up due to lack of rage, etc.
I would get at least 11% hit; and atleast 30% crit. With that you should be fine to pump AP if that is your forte.
I love hit rating for all of the reason mentioned above (Increased rage gen, windfury procs...etc) and from my testing, it seems like the magic number is around 15% +hit. It gets misses to be sub 10% so 3-4+ miss streaks are rare, rage generation is constant and you don't have to go super over-board stacking it over crit/AP.
I run with 16.75% hit with talents i think. Check out Calgra on Black dragonflight for my profile if you are interested in my gear setup...also, suggestions are welcome on my gear setup.
Why do i stack hit over ap? That's easy, it's because there are no +hit buffs out there compared to +AP. The difference from my unbuffed to buffed hit is zero...from unbuffed to fully buffed AP is like 1600+. Given the choice of something that i can ONLY gain from gear, or something i can chug pots to increase my base by almost 100% it isn't difficult to decide.
That said, fury is all about balancing gear out. I'm 26% crit (battle stance) 1506 AP, 16.7% hit with a T2 blacksmith main-hand and fel-edged off-hand. Ideally, i'd like to squeeze 100-150 more AP out of my gear without giving up too much of anything else but i don't see how that's possible with current itemization.
You will see all fury warriors around the same point; 1500-1700 AP, 24-30 crit, 12-16% hit. It's just a matter of which end of each bracket you want to be in, as you can't max all 3, you have to either balance, or focus on 2 of the three.
There was another thread a couple weeks ago discussing the hit caps and the consensus there was that the dual wield miss rate is now 25.5%.
edit: looks like it's picked back up since I last read it, so the number may have changed again.
You are right, thats the miss rate for lvl 73 mobs iirc. I forgot about it until you mentioned it; I remember the thread now too, will go search for it.
Thanks for all the replies. I am sitting at around 26 crit (SWstats) 23.50crit (Character sheet) with 223 hit rating with 1617 unshouted AP. I am pretty happy with my flurry uptime and I dont see a ton of miss strings or crit strings for that matter.
If someone wants to check my setup out, please do so. Any critique would be nice. I am very open to suggestions and new ideas.
I feel oddly befuddled, but, what is the rule of .3 seconds?
Sorry I havent responded to this yet. If i find the page I will post it but I remember reading that to optimize DPS an offhand of .30 seconds faster then your Mainhand will substantially increase damage output. Anyone with any thoughts on this idea also? And, If you could chose what speed offhand would you go with. I was thinking of a fel-edged battle axe but unfortunatly I am short on funds and this next patch is just going to drive the cost up anyway. So GG 2.1.0
Last edited by oraclephenom : 05/04/07 at 1:18 PM.
There are a surprising amount of totally different theories posted here. There's the crit guys, the hit guys, the AP guys, and the "holy trinity" balance guys. Favoring hit makes a lot more sense to me, as Calgar posted, because it is the only stat that cannot be artificially boosted through buffs. Whereas a flask of relentless assault can make up a large part of AP deficit, and elixir of mongoose/major agility, a feral druid, and elemental sharpening stones can make up for a slightly lower crit rating, the only way to add hit rating is to have those smarmy cheating blue people who are only available to alliance.
Lately I've been wondering how long I'm going to have to hang on to two piece Doomplate...
Yeah Lode, it is interesting seeing the different outlooks on Fury. Like i said, my view on +hit is tainted by the fact that i almost ALWAYS have a feral druid and enhancement shaman in my group, so I'm running 3k AP and 36% crit buffed, meaning only my hit would be hurting at that point.
You can't imagine how much WF and a feral add to a fury's DPS. Eg. I am usually first or second DPS on Prince in KZ with either of them in my group. Last night, both were busy and we ended up with a bunch of rogues/warlocks/mages for DPS on prince. I was DEAD LAST on dps. It was really disheartening to see a brand new 70 warlock beat me just because he had a shadow priest and I didn't have my buffers. It also didn't help i died at 5%, and had to run out for 75% of the enfeebles....but still.
As for the 2 piece doomplate....you are going to be hanging onto that for a LONG time i think. It's going to take some incredible items to make me break the 2 piece bonus.
Ideally i want to get the doomplate legs, so I have more room to play with my gear if i get an upgraded shoulder or chest piece.
I find the prince fight to be really hit or miss depending on cripples. Also since in my group a bear is the main tank, I need to be regularly applying sunder, clap, and demo especially in phase 2. So yeah, Prince was never a good fight to judge from my perspective. If you haven't done Void Reaver, you're going to like that fight. Just make sure to keep Berserker Rage up every 30 seconds and it's impossible to have rage issues on him.
Lately I've been trying to decide between the Icon of Unyielding Courage and my Bloodlust Brooch. yeah, the Icon is good hit, but the brooch is so damn good!
05/03/07, 3:32 PM
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