Yes I logged out in zerker stance I am pretty sure.

I was just toying with the same thought...think about switching icon for brooch, getting the (soon to be buffed) Vile Choker heroic neck and switching to the master assassin ring from VE rep. That will push my AP up by about 70 or so with no loss in +hit....although i would lose something like a full % to crit.

As for Void Reaver. My guild is nowhere close to that. Still working on Mag and getting people keyed for SSC. From my understanding of the fight, aren't you critically threat capped there due to the MT agro reduction?

Prince isn't very good for melee, however in Phase 3 since it lasts quite a bit, you can dump a very nasty amount of damage into him and taking the knockback just means that much more rage in your executes.

Strangely I have not had rage issues on any boss from Kara to SSC.
Fights like Gruul where there really isn't any damage going around (assuming you can stay out of cave-in and shatter, two things I never have a problem with but Rogues seem too...); I cannot spend rage fast enough spamming WW, BT, Hamstring and Heroic Strike. Granted I generally have a Enhancement Shaman and a Feral druid in my group; the only thing that limits my dps is aggro, however it is very easy to mitigate if your raid is smart about threat generation. If your guild hasn't totally exiled its Hunters then Misdirect rotations are great for this.

Even in Karazhan where I almost never have a feral or a Shaman I can keep an easy top 3.

The only fight I end up less than top 3dps is occasionally Maulgar due to having to chase around mobs and the High King himself is annoying for melee with his Whirlwind and Charge.
Last night I came in #5 on dps; realizing afterwords that somehow I had my Riding Crop equiped instead of my Dragonspine Trophy. >_>

If rage is your limiting factor in raids I would consider your build and find out why your lacking. Hit is a big factor in this. If not hit, look at what your doing, maybe you should drop something out of your cycle.

I am decently geared, I keep meaning to post my profile on here but WoW official site is blocked by work and I never remember when I am home. But if you search: Surion of <Hype> on Durotan. I am decently geared in mostly epics a few blues like the invaluable 2p Doomplate. My only bane is the damnable gloves since T4 or Gruul's just wont drop. =(

If I'm mashing BT and keeping Heroic Strike, I usually don't even bother with Whirlwind on single targets. Maybe if it hit with both weapons...

Without trying to sound superior, you really, really need to. It still comes out as a decent chunk of dps; and if you are having rage issues, that will clear them up instantly.

Consider that your gaining a free full damage attack (normal WW vs one mob) for 25 rage (20 with 2p T4); or instead your gaining a superior damage HS for 15 (12 if talented) rage + the rage from your next MH strike. That will usually end up atleast the same amount of rage. And if your spamming HS it is definately the cause of your rage issues.

Also your getting many less hits in general by spaming HS; where as with WW your getting a free instant attack; meaning another chance to proc flurry/trinkets/WF.

I only use HS in high rage situations, which granted for me is most of the time, but if you find yourself limited by rage; drop it out of your cycle. If it will keep you from using BT or WW as soon as the cooldown ends, take it out of your cycle untill you have free rage.

My personal is WW -> BT; if I have WF I will spam Hamstring untill cooldown on BT/WW is up; and spam HS inbetween; assuming rage doesnt fall loose.

If I dont have Windfury; I drop Hamstring out of my cycle completely; unless I just have a massive ton of rage (Kazzak for example).

Try it out your next group/raid. I think you will notice a big differance.

I think the major point that I want to support is the fact that you can't buff hit rating with any consumeables, at all. As Loderunner pointed out, you can stack pots like crazy to get big time ap and crit, but nothing will increase your hit. I only have one piece of gear that I've put an 8 hit rating gem in so far, and I run 240 hit rating. I've found that hit rating is one of the easiest stats to get out of blue gear at level 70, and it becomes less pervasive as you upgrade to purples. I'm still using doomplate legs and chest, because frankly I can't think of a superior upgrade combo with current gear. I might use bloodwarder's greaves and level up armorsmithing or something if I get really bored, but aside from that the doomplate combo is just top notch. Two blue sockets on the T4 dps bp, what is that?

Anyway, back on topic, I think you can safely ramp up hit pretty high (20% from gear probably) without worrying too much. That isn't to say you should stack all +8 hit gems, I favor a balance build myself. I know from looking over many webstats reports that I average about 45% of my damage coming from white hits. As was mentioned earlier, more hit makes rage generation smoother, so you can always have bloodthirst and whirlwind on cooldown with enough extra rage to spam heroic strike as well. Miss streaks can indeed be devastating, just think about how much damage you're losing if you have to wait 2-3 seconds on average after bloodthirst is off cooldown before you can use it again.

Wrong actually, the very first thing a tank stacks is +defense; if you can be crit, your a useless tank. But your reasoning is flawed because of the easily attainable cap for defense one, and two because 90% of tank gear has all stats they need, they don't need to match gear for balancing 3 differant stats.

Also weapon skill is not commenly found on tank gear making it very hard to stack (and not common period making it very hard to stack in general).

Your right there, spreadsheet or RW testing is nice, but the whole downside is that we are a very fickle class even in testing; also there are no very good mobs to test against due to BL mobs being such lower level and greatly inflating hit/crit rates.

But he was asking for advice so it was given, everyone has a personal style and preferance, what works for one may not work for others, whether it is mathmaticly superior or not. Also mathmatics are very hard to judge for us since we have to take things like length of fights into account. >_>

I'm not having rage issues. My warrior has been arms most of his life. When I switched to Fury a couple months ago I continued to play my warrior like an arms warrior, prioritizing BT/WW and intermittent hamstrings. Fankly my damage sucked. After talking to a couple other warriors I trust, they talked me into mashing HS more. My damage went up significantly.

I'm still getting adjusted to the feel of Fury, but Bloodthirsting every 6 seconds with HS queued up intermittently and babysitting Rampage every 30 seconds seems to be working just fine. The only problem with HS mashing seems to be threat buildup, especially popping brooch/death wish.
If you check my Armory profile, you'll see that I still need a good chunk more hit than I have right now. Don't mind the gems in the chest/gloves. I'll probably upgrade those in the near future... stupid doomplate.

http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/ch...s&n=Loderunner

Also it's not that I never Whirlwind, I just don't even coming close to hitting its cooldown every 10 seconds.

As the main tank of my guild, I'd say that balancing between stats IS a large part of Tank itemization. You only need to look on this forum to see all the "avoidance vs. stam" debates going on, or the "where is my +hit" threads to see that.

Also, I was referring to defence past the 490 'cap', I should have made the clear, for which I apologise. I don't consider getting 490 defence to be 'stacking' defence, just like I wouldnt say getting enough +hit to never miss a special (~6-8%, right?) to be 'stacking' +hit. You say that 'your reasoning is flawed because of the easily attainable cap for defense one'. Did you ever think of the same about hit? Because of the lower miss rate of specials, the full potential of hit rating caps out pretty low too. That doesnt mean that hit is useless after the 8%, just like if you ask a good tank, they'll tell you that defence is FAR from useless above 490. Defence is not a case of 'get 490, then never got more'. It's a case of, get 490, and then evaluate it sensibly vs. the other stats available.

I was here referring to it in terms of dps rather than tanking, but you seem to have made my point for me - It's rare, and hard to stack, but that doesn't mean you should take what you can get. Just because hit might be harder to stack up so high compared to AP, does NOT make it better - that was the point I was making, which you seem to have missed.

All true, and I completely agree. Everyone is entitled to opinions, I was just pointing out the flawed reasoning. I value +hit quite highly for dps (and for tanking, too), but let's just say I'm a stickler for correct logical reasoning. If you want to say 'I think +hit is better than AP at these conditions: X, Y, Z', that's cool, but you shouldnt say 'take more +hit on gear because you can buff AP more than hit', because that doesnt mean anything. If you want to talk about how large AP buffs increase the value of +hit, then that's a valid point for discussion (in a case like this, you can generally say that +hit gets better the more AP you have, and AP gets better the more +hit you have. What counts is where the equilibrium point is, and what buffed stats people are looking at).

Moogul is right; very few would stack defense over stamina; and the fact that you need 490 doesnt mean a thing there, we all know that we need that magic number, stacking is a different thing.

Just like that, you cannot buff hit doesnt meant its more precious than anything else. Simply put, 1% hit is 1% more to your base white dps while 1% crit is 1% more to your base damage of all kinds. After you capped your specials hit isnt much likely to exceed crit in any way. You cannot increase your flurry uptime by reducing misses either; flurry is about crits, and crits only; only way it may help flurry is having 30% crit and no hit, and such gear doesnt exist in the game right now.

When I put 3k ap 35% crit and 15% hit at the spreadsheet here, unless Im doing something horribly retarded, it looks like 1% crit is about 40 ap, 1 hit is about 25 ap; almost 1 crit rating ~ 1 hit rating, and 20 str ~ 33 agi, which should be reasonable.

Only place one would value hit higher than crit is the execute period; and that's just because we want to have 10 rage every 1.5 sec. That is the reason we use inferior daggers for executes; but you cannot change the rest of your gear for executes, so that doesnt justify anything.

Moogul, I think I got sucked into the wrong side of the discussion here; I posted earlier only stack hit up to around a point you said, ~15%. Though I've heard some prefer 18%ish.
Reading back through the posts; once you hit that, I advocated adding crit for better flurry uptime. It was another poster who mentioned that hit was a better stat due to not being able to buff it through use of consumbales/raidbuffs.

And load, I wasn't realising at first that you were horde because of which you most likeley run with a Shaman much more often than I which would account for prioritizing Hamstring in your cycle, where as being Alliance minus some raids that I get to have them, I generally don't have one.

Miscommunication sucks.

It was my point of hit can't be buffed and AP/crit can.

Some basics here;

1% critical = 1.1% more damage (with impale) ALWAYS.
I figure form tests and damage meters that 50% of my damage is white, 50% yellow
1% hit = 1% more damage upto the point where specials never miss, and after that point it's 0.5% damage increase from each full hit %
**14 AP = 1 white DPS on the main-hand, 0.75 on the off-hand, and since 50% of the damage is white and 50% yellow, i figure 14ap = ~2.75 dps. (1.75 on the white side, 1 on the yellow side) **

The issue is finding a constant for DPS to work with to compare static +damage/dps verus percentage upgrades from hit/crit. I like to use 1000 DPS...easy to work with, and not totally unreasonable in a buffed raid/WF situation IMO.

So this is how i look at stat balance

31.6 hit = 22.1 crit = 50ap

give or take...each gives ~10 dps according to my math. This is of course assuming you have more hit then you need for specials to not miss

** Flawed math, i know, weapon damage factors heavily into this split with instant attack and bloodthirst etc....but it gets MEGA complicated for off the cuff calculations if you factor all that stuff in...and this is easy to work with.

Is there an up to date spread-sheet that will settle some of these debates?

That's a gross oversimplification though. More crit gives more flurry uptime. More flurry means more damage, more rage, and ergo more abilities used. It also means smoother rage generation, and therefor more optimal execute usage.

More hit gives smoother rage generation and the same things with it as above. It gives more procs (especially important with things like Mongoose and other haste procs) and all their knock-on effects. It's also less bursty than crit, and therefore less risk of pulling aggro early on.

I looked as much as I could, but I did not see any warriors talking about the 4% more physical damage talent talent MS warriors give. That is 4% more threat over casters and 4% raidwise physical damage, very much worth keeping an MS warrior unless you keep a pure caster setup.

How did you come to that conclusion?

Looking at Impale we see the following:
Increases the critical strike damage bonus of your abilities in Battle, Defensive, and Berserker stance by 20%.

Now a 20% increase in critical strike damage bonus is the same as a 10% increase on the whole critical.
As my quick Bloodthirst test showed.

Normal 482
Critical 1060 (with Impale)

So assuming like you did that we have 50% white, and 50% yellow damage we are looking at each 1% critical being 1.05% more damage, or am I missing something?

Sorry....forgot to factor it in to yellow hits only.

As far as I know it's normalised to the new speed, but you're still effectively swinging with a higher dps weapon than before, so you'll get more rage, just less than you'd expect.

80 dps weapon, 2.0 speed, 160 average damage, 5.68 rage per swing, 2.84 rage per second
becomes
104 dps weapon, 1,538 speed, 160 average damage, 4.88 rage per swing, 3.17 rage per second.

I personally go for 55+ AP per crit and was after two crit per hit, but have already reached (actually exceeded) the limit I wanted for hit. Once the Ripfiend shoulders finally drop, my crit will go up, but hit a little bit with it as well.

It will be interesting to see how long it takes for items to be implemented that allow you to break the two piece Doomplate set while raising your DPS significantly. If I'm going to dump 2.2% hit (on top of the stats per piece), they better damn well be able to make up for it elsewhere.

edit, nm