Druid Threat Generation - Page 2

Monsanto · 05/04/07, 5:41 PM

I haven't found a lack of +hit to be a problem in bear form other than a potential bad string of luck off the pull. Once threat is established, druids pump it out at a pretty good rate. Don't get me wrong, I'd love more +hit but I'm not thrilled at the sacrifices you'd have to make to get it.

There was a post not too long ago, from Athninra and Tangydn about the new way lacerate works. Basically almost all of the threat is innate and you can pretty much treat the dot as being negligible. Before this change, I stopped using lacerate in a lot of situations. After reading that post, I've been using it more and I can feel a difference in a lot of situations (probably the best benchmark for druid aggro is accidentally pulling aggro on Gruul when you're just the hateful strike sponge).

Dev0 · 05/04/07, 6:39 PM

Well when I change to the clefthoof set I planned on switching out my + def trinket for the "forgive the spelling" Augsian Compass which gives +36 stamina I believe and alittle damage reduction, however going with the romeo's poison trink and then adding the helm enchant would get me around 50 hit which would make a difference I'm sure.

Also to be Clear Generaly I do not have any issues whatso ever with threat, altho there are those bad luck times where I'm panicing alittle because everyones just about to pass me on the meters. I'm just trying to eliminate those times or atleast make them even more rare with hopefully minimal reduction to my stamina.

dukes · 05/05/07, 3:16 AM

Originally Posted by Quasar

Haven't seen the change and Thott/test has the old info.

352 armour
24 str
24 agi
36 stam
22 int

Rather good, and I've already started farming for them (as far as farming can go with a 1day cooldown on heroics). Pretty sure I've seen them and let them be d/e'ed before, which is really pissing me off.

Tyvi · 05/05/07, 6:37 AM

Originally Posted by dukes

352 armour
24 str
24 agi
36 stam
22 int

Rather good, and I've already started farming for them (as far as farming can go with a 1day cooldown on heroics). Pretty sure I've seen them and let them be d/e'ed before, which is really pissing me off.

Agreed, the buffs to the items which I considered PvP gear myself before are really nice. I will definitely try and get the bracers and pants of that "set" as well because they are good for PvP for one (I am a PvE carebear so all PvP gear I have are 3 Gladiator set pieces) and are great OT sets in encounters where you start tanking a mob, then DPS.

They are still not the best mitigation items you can get for MTing (Clefthoof and T4 is usually better), but they already earned their worth for the OT encounters.

Gwyd · 05/05/07, 11:24 AM

Luckily enough I kept them to use for spot healing in pvp.

Zodak · 05/06/07, 2:39 PM

druid threat scaling sounds like an AP issue to me. since druid TPS is directly affected by our damage, i dont see why one would ever stack more +hit compared to more +str/ap. with so many abilities to use in case your main ability misses (maul) with a mangle/lacerate/swipe backup for initial aggro pulling, i would think your problem is your damage output at that point. not to argue that +hit is worthless, but in terms of points, i would still value more +str if i had to choose when we're discussing TPS.

threat production is very much a part of end-game gearing as raid dps goes up for druids. maul and mangle generate a ton of threat and after looking and my damage done in raid fights i do more damage with maul than mangle which is why i wear my idol of brutality over my idol of the wild now. up your damage and you should see a significant bump in your threat caused. if youre still having threat problems, perhaps its your ability rotations not creating enough threat at that point? or maybe your dps hasn't quite adjusted to their upgrades, it also their responsibility to hold back if their dps is too leetsauce

mek · 05/06/07, 4:01 PM

Originally Posted by Zodak

druid threat scaling sounds like an AP issue to me. since druid TPS is directly affected by our damage, i dont see why one would ever stack more +hit compared to more +str/ap.

For lack of a better term, "burst threat", i.e. threat when you need it. As I mentioned above, Nightbane landing is a very sensitive example of this - if you chain miss a few attacks, a healer will die and your raid might get breathed. Another good example is Magtheridon being released. If you're looking for raw TPS then AP is probably your best bet, yes... but +hit helps prevent accidents.

Zodak · 05/06/07, 4:14 PM

Originally Posted by mek

For lack of a better term, "burst threat", i.e. threat when you need it. As I mentioned above, Nightbane landing is a very sensitive example of this - if you chain miss a few attacks, a healer will die and your raid might get breathed. Another good example is Magtheridon being released. If you're looking for raw TPS then AP is probably your best bet, yes... but +hit helps prevent accidents.

yes, that does occasionally happen, but we have a hunter transition for landing phases to misdirect on our MT for nightbane, and the same for maggie. i just think that in relation to these accidents, and in relation to the necessary TPS for high dps time intensive encounters, in my opinion +hit is still a loss over more sustained threat generation overall.

Boevis · 05/06/07, 6:52 PM

Originally Posted by Liar

Agreed, the buffs to the items which I considered PvP gear myself before are really nice. I will definitely try and get the bracers and pants of that "set" as well because they are good for PvP for one (I am a PvE carebear so all PvP gear I have are 3 Gladiator set pieces) and are great OT sets in encounters where you start tanking a mob, then DPS.

They are still not the best mitigation items you can get for MTing (Clefthoof and T4 is usually better), but they already earned their worth for the OT encounters.

That's why I kept the boots too, though one of my guildmates described it as "the oddest change to an item since the patch that took agi off arcanist"

Ziggyny · 05/07/07, 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by Quasar

Lack of hit on my tanking gear is the bane of my existence. Consider OTing on Gruul - already half-rage starved, without enough hit you won't stay ahead of DPS. Without enough defenses (sta, dodge, etc) you will die to later Growth hatefuls. It's a pain I can't really solve. I'm using Cobrascale Helm with the cenarian enchant simply because it has so much +hit and even then I'm only running about 3% in my bear gear.

I am the normal hateful tank for my guild, and I have to get Salvation or I'll pull off the warrior tank. I used to not get salv, but then I'd end up spending a third of the fight with auto-attack turned off not doing any damage at all.

I don't have any +hit in my tanking set at all, but I manage my rage such that I never miss out on mangling. I don't lacerate unless I'm at risk of wasting rage due to being at 100. Mangle when it's cooled down and the occasional Maul thrown in when I'm around 40+ rage work just fine for me.

Boevis · 05/08/07, 1:32 AM

If your risking overcoming the MT as a hurtful tank, then I suggest you direct him to the Warrior threat threads on these forums. The only time I risk passing our MT on Gruul is at the start, I even stand in the stone rain just to build more rage to keep up with him. Though, I do dodge quite a few of the hurtfuls.

constantius · 05/08/07, 2:40 AM

Warriors are not created equal.

One of our tanks, we engaged, and about 45 seconds into the fight, the druid OT suddenly got rocked and died. We went WTF? and then we noticed that he'd passed the MT in threat and suddenly become the new MT. Bad timing, and he died (healers weren't expecting sudden dmg).

His TPS was poor anyway, so we didn't think much of it.

Switched to our regular MT, and on that attempt, the druid OT was pushing 85% of his threat the entire time. The only portion where he came remotely close was the first 15 seconds, before position was stabilized and our MT could get his rotation firmed up.

Still, as an OT, with only the rage from HS, our feral OT was putting out 800+ TPS. That's incredibly impressive. <3 feral OTs.

Athinira · 05/08/07, 3:11 AM

druid threat scaling sounds like an AP issue to me. since druid TPS is directly affected by our damage, i dont see why one would ever stack more +hit compared to more +str/ap. with so many abilities to use in case your main ability misses (maul) with a mangle/lacerate/swipe backup for initial aggro pulling, i would think your problem is your damage output at that point. not to argue that +hit is worthless, but in terms of points, i would still value more +str if i had to choose when we're discussing TPS.

Wrong. +hit is the cheapest and best TPS scaling a druid can get. Loads of our threat comes from innate threat now and not just scaling attacks.
Missed Maul = no innate ~320 threat.
Missed Lacerate = No 285 innate threat
Missed Mangle = I still have nightmares about the times i lose agro because of 3 x Mangle misses in a row. Mangle is damage x 1.5 in threat (damage x 1.3 next patch but damage is getting buffed so no change done) and thats alot of threat

Crit and AP only affects our damage done and their only real TPS scaling is when using Mangle. +hit scales with innate threat from moves including Lacerate. AP is worthless for Lacerate, has reduced effectiveness for Maul and is good for Mangle. Crit is slightly useful for Lacerate (very useful when offtanking though because of primal fury for extra rage), good use for Maul and excellent use for Mangle. +hit is excellent for Lacerate, Maul and Mangle.

And on a final note, +hit provides something which crit and AP doesn't: It makes your initial agro generation more reliable.

Cryect · 05/08/07, 3:13 AM

Originally Posted by Athinira

Wrong. +hit is the cheapest and best TPS scaling a druid can get. Loads of our threat comes from innate threat now and not just scaling attacks.

Well almost right, its weapon skill rating which unfortunately besides Earthwarden there is no tank items for druids with feral combat skill.

Athinira · 05/08/07, 3:29 AM

Originally Posted by Cryect

Well almost right, its weapon skill rating which unfortunately besides Earthwarden there is no tank items for druids with feral combat skill.

Might be true, i sadly can't remember the item budget for weapon skill. Could you possibly link the item budget cost for feral combat skill rating and hitrating?