Mutilate seems to be the be-all and end-all of most of the rogues I know at the moment, and I've been hearing a lot of buzz over the 41.20.0 Muti/DW-spec build.
Taking into account that DWspec is one of the best-scaling rogue talents, and is probably the lynch-pin of Combat DPS (I heard somewhere that it adds more DPS per talent point than any other talent in any of the trees, but I've never seen any evidence for this), and it also adds to Mutilate's damage, and in the long run probably provides a more stable damage boost than oppertunity (dodges and whatever), does this build have the same potential as Combat-Daggers/Swords?
I've been trying it out on the PTR, but I don't have access to any hard data, but my observations seem to be focused on using 3cp SnD cycles with Rupture/Eviscerate/Envenom thrown it to keep Find Weakness up, then gaining 5cps and regaining energy untill SnD ticks out or you regain full energy.
Has there been any previous posts on this? I can't seem to find anything but dud links and rough speculation.
From my understanding, poison-immune bosses in SSC and perhaps TK invalidate the otherwise competitive 41/20 build, at least in the 25-man raids. I'll stick with it as long as I can, but it's hard to justify the spec for poison immune mobs. I'm certainly looking forward to 2.1 and the Imp Sap change, I'm currently 41/13/7 since I've been doing a lot of Heroics lately. My DPS is solid with that build, though not quite as good as 41/20 both in practice and according to the spreadsheet.
Having been combat mutilate since I hit 70, it's not combat daggers in terms of DPS. I do about 6-8% less than when I tried combat daggers (15/41/5). However, the cycling is a lot more fun to work with than the backstab spam of combat daggers. Maximizing DPS as mutilate revived raiding for me, as I was just bored at 60 being combat daggers, even if I topped meters consistently.
The other reason why combat mutilate is so popular is because it does particularly well in arena. Majority of top arena rogues jumped on the combat mutilate wagon from QR fists/combat fists.
I don't have any hard data, but if I'd have to estimate, it's weaker than combat daggers, but stronger than swords/fists (or at least keeps up). This also is partially because there are more epic daggers (and TNB atm is overpowered).
- Download the sheet
- Fill in your gear, fill in your spec
- Change gear and spec around to see what yields the best results
It's not perfect, but it does a great job of modeling a sustained fight where aggro and positioning are non-factors. It'll even spit out a cycle for you, based on your gear and spec, that is the theoretical best dps cycle to use in such a fight.
Well, the rogue DPS spreadsheet (in Rogue DPS Spreadsheet) has an option for Mutilate, so even if there's not specific information in that thread about it it wouldn't be hard to plug in a few numbers and figure it out for yourself. However, brief comments:
1) I'm fairly certain that the best point-for-point sustained dps talent is Relentless Strikes.
2) DW Spec certainly adds quite a bit of dps as well, and could be argued to be the lynchpin of combat dps pre-expansion; however, I would argue that that title is now held by Combat Potency and Surprise Attacks, which are the two high-end talents that are unique to combat builds.
3) All in all, my impression has been that while Mutilate does fairly respectable damage, it is noticably behind combat builds. I view Mutilate as being sort of where Seal Fate was pre-expansion: a hybrid build that trades some PvE damage potential for increased PvP viability.
Long story short? Open in the spreadsheet and play with some numbers, and see what happens.
Uhm...Of course it's viable. It's not Combat Daggers or Swords.
However the difference in damage (except fights such as Hydross) is minimal imho.
Compared to our other dagger and sword rogues I usually end up rather close (+-0.2-0.4%) depending on the fight.
That and the fact that 4 piece assassination is simply overpowered (t5 in the same slots offered 13dps upgrade), I'd say it is very viable.
As for cycles. Thumb rule is 4cp+ = finisher since you won't be wasting combo points that way. If you're using 4 piece assassination the cycles can be "shortcut" when ruthlessness procs
(4/5cp eviscerate->ruthproc->mutilatecrit->4cp eviscerate->repeat etc.) Without 4piece it's also possible if you have excess energy, but not sustainable (3-4 or more times in a row)
Fans glory to the Gladiators,
Gods glory to the Heroes.
Uhm...Of course it's viable. It's not Combat Daggers or Swords.
However the difference in damage (except fights such as Hydross) is minimal imho.
Compared to our other dagger and sword rogues I usually end up rather close (+-0.2-0.4%) depending on the fight.
That and the fact that 4 piece assassination is simply overpowered (t5 in the same slots offered 13dps upgrade), I'd say it is very viable.
As for cycles. Thumb rule is 4cp+ = finisher since you won't be wasting combo points that way. If you're using 4 piece assassination the cycles can be "shortcut" when ruthlessness procs
(4/5cp eviscerate->ruthproc->mutilatecrit->4cp eviscerate->repeat etc.) Without 4piece it's also possible if you have excess energy, but not sustainable (3-4 or more times in a row)
Without the 4 piece, I'm usually forced to use rupture or else I'd have to waste energy (though, I'm not entirely sure if rupture works with FW, I just assumed it did). There is really no set cycle for mutilate as everything depends on relentless/ruthlessness/crits. It's more about using your instincts and watching your timers and ticker to optimize damage.
But yeah, the rule is 4cp+ finishers. Generally, use SND with a full/near full bar of energy, and squeeze other finishers in when you have FW up. Always try to use finishers as late as possible to optimize FW uptime.
As for pure DPS, in a PW situation, combat daggers would definitely do more damage (not ridiculously noticeable, but it's there).
Last edited by Orinas : 05/06/07 at 2:12 PM.
Reason: Grammar
Excellent, thanks for the feedback. Since Find Weakness DOES apply to other finishing moves, I'd imagine throwing a 3/4cp rupture/evis a few seconds after a SnD would be worth it?
Excellent, thanks for the feedback. Since Find Weakness DOES apply to other finishing moves, I'd imagine throwing a 3/4cp rupture/evis a few seconds after a SnD would be worth it?
Well, if you're using FW properly. You should -always- be able to use an evis after an SnD regardless of procs. Pop SnD as soon as energy ticks up to 100-110 (and not a second later, because if relentless procs, you'll lose energy), then mutilate, even if this one doesn't crit and you don't have a ruthless proc, you will have enough for another mutilate with one tick. Then you can wait 4 seconds (and FW would still be up) and evis. You should almost never be using 3cp finishers.
Now that I've had a cup of coffee, I'll expand on my previous comments.
Combat Daggers is still better DPS overall, but I still find Mutilate and the micro-management of Find Weakness time etc. to be much more enjoyable and engrossing. Granted, Combat Potency has made 15/41/5 more interesting than 15/31/5 was, but since switching to Mutilate when 2.0 came I've never enjoyed playing a Rogue as much as I do now (and that's even with the fun of Sweeping Strikes and friends).
I think the important point is that while Combat Daggers is slightly more DPS than Combat Mutilate in a pure sustained DPS sense, Mutilate gives you a lot more flexibility. I love Quick Recovery, for example. Dropping a 5-point Kidney Shot doesn't hurt my Mutilate DPS anywhere near as much as it does with a Combat Daggers build, since Mutilate's CP generation is far superior. There are many reasons to choose Mutilate, and if it weren't for the poison-immune mobs in the high-end raid content I think you'd see a lot more Rogues sticking with the spec.
curator is at least, i'm not sure about voidreaver or doomwalker. some mechanicals seem to follow their own rules (the mechanical trash in kara for instance can be poisoned), however elementals seem to be universaly poison immune.
I've been specced combat swords, daggers, and mutilate since BC came out...
I manage to beat our combat sword rogues occasionally, but it's not because the spec allows me to compete, when I was a full combat spec - the margin was a lot greater. I was winning every time by a good amount when I was using swords.
It generally goes like this if you have the best gear available to you:
Combat Swords, value like this:
1 agi = 1.2 hit = .5 ap = .7 crit
Combat Daggers,
1 agi = 1.1 hit = .5 ap = .75 crit
Mutilate,
1 agi = .9 hit = .55 ap = .8 crit
(This may all be completely bullshit, i'm estimating from what I remember seeing in the sheet and guessing the difference between the spec from my own experience)
What i'm saying with my own estimates up here is that swords, in my opinion, have the most potential... If you spec for a capped hit-rate and haste in your trinkets. Abacus/Dragonspine. You can also chain-chug haste pots and get an impressive lead on number 2 in your raid.
Combat daggers is right behind, it's only disadvantage being that it doesnt benefit by such a ridiculous amount from any stat the way that swords does from hit.
Mutilate is more difficult to use efficiently than you may imagine... Throwing in the find weakness cycle with snd and if you use the hourglass - paying attention to that in deciding how you want to finish as well; It can be hard.
Personally I'm tired of working so hard to barely keep up. I would like to switch back to swords if we get another Talon of Azshara.
What's better? A 5% bonus chance to crit? or a 5% chance to have an extra attack which can also crit?
5% crit is more universal, and applies more readily to Eviscerate and Sinister Strike, and the crit damage they do it more than a white hit/crit, and sword spec can (or can be) miss/parry/blocked.
Ive done a good bit of raiding as 41/20/0 since I find it much or interesting to play than combat daggers which I basically had to be for the last ~2 years of raiding.
On a Patchwerk style just stand here and go for it fight you will be slighty behind a full combat rogue because combat potency is nuts and allows for lots of additional special attacks. I find that very few fights are like this anymore Morogrim comes to mind but few others. In an In and Out type boss fight or on trash (I realize trash isnt important) a mutilate rogue can dominate a combat rogue.
On Lurker for example where its in and out dps a bit then run a circle the combat rogues just cannot keep up mostly because of how quickly I can get into my cycle and be at full dps.
I would say the biggest downfall is poison immune mobs such as Hydross and Void Reaver. We dont have enough raiders attuned for the eye yet but from what Ive read VR isnt too difficult or much of a dps intensive fight so Mutilate rogues shouldnt be too much of a problem. On hydross I'm usually 5-6th on dps instead of 1-2 on a normal boss so its not like the damage is completely gimp.
I don't have any hard data, but if I'd have to estimate, it's weaker than combat daggers, but stronger than swords/fists (or at least keeps up). This also is partially because there are more epic daggers (and TNB atm is overpowered).
Based on general observations over the past few months of a 41/20/00 rogue put up against 17/44/00 combat swords or maces builds with roughly equal gear, the 41/20 rogue will do nicely on trash but will drop behind the combat rogues come boss time. The difference isn't really all that great though to be honest and unless you lack dps elsewhere not enough to ask them to respec out of the build.
I'm not really a fan of daggers but it is a viable raiding build if you get the right cycle. I guess I'm just lazy and will probably stick to swords though.
I'm a big fan of the 41/20/0 spec, and I'm quite happy about the Imp Sap changes upcoming in 2.10.
However, I wouldn't go so far as to say that it does quite as much DPS. It starts pretty close in terms of DPS, but doesn't scale quite so well with buffs (again, 2.10 will help that a little bit, though gear upgrades should hopefully invalidate most of the generic power loss) with other advantages such as Find Weakness, Imp poisons (helpful in PvP for your wounding/crippling/mindnumbing procs depending on which "essential" class you're missing from your arena team), and Quick Recovery (probably my favorite talent in any rogue tree).
Also, as others have mentioned, I spent a good 8 months as Combat Daggers in WoW 1.0, a good 5 of which had me wearing my damned Aged Core Leather Gloves full-time on bosses.
You're missing out on some cool little abilities like Adrenaline Rush and Combat Potency, as well as blade flurry (which hasn't proven to be a horrible concern to me in TBC yet), but it's a fair tradeoff, IMO.
Just in response to people linking the spreadsheet.
That sheet is great and very well designed but it is designed around a combat build and although it allows you to select mutilate not nearly as much work as been done to model it. I feel this thread has a valid discussion going on and as a fan of Mutilate id like to know how its working out for others. I personally love the fact that i dont completely need to hit whore, hit is obviously still a good stat but capping isnt an required as it for combat these days
I agree with everybody says, mutilate loses its bliss on poison immune bobs/bosses. I ve just got myself a searing sunblade and respecced to combat daggers last week. I think it is working for me so far so good, compared to mutilate.
Anyways, my real point is, why does Mutilate require target to be poisoned anyway? It is already a build that can compete with combat daggers/swords/fists/maces provided that target must be poisoned. Although , i fell in love with insane combo point generation and control, i had to leave it.
So, in my opinion, there must be no poison requirement for Mutilate build to be viable. It is the only build that adds a different tasty flower to rogue playstyle, on the other hand it is the only build that constrains the rogue most, even while selecting which poisons to use
Could anyone list the poison immune bosses? Hydross is, I know that one for sure, but are there others?
hydross, the elementals in phase 2 of the vashj fight, al'ar, void reaver
they all are at kind of the same level, so if you are at that point of your raiding progress, mutilate probably isn't an option :P
Mutilate is fun, stronger in PvP than combat daggers, and provides good single-target damage, especially on in and out fights. However, the interaction between haste, hit, and combat potency makes combat scale really well, and you also get powerful cooldowns in AR and Blade Flurry. Blade flurry is especially nice because it is the only talent that allows you to hit more than one target at a time. Mutilate has... cold blood.
Use AR when Curator evocates. Stabbing Leo in demon phase and you get inner demon? Hit blade flurry and watch it just melt while you continue happily stabbing. For purely PvE applications, I think 41(or more for sword/fist) in combat is going to net you the most damage. 41/20/0 is not weak, but it's not the best.
Mutilate also requires more work to get the most out of it. The more complicated the fight, the harder it will be to stay at maximum effectiveness. It is more interesting to play, but there's a point where it becomes frustrating because you cannot perform at your best. Shade of Aran drove me absolutely bonkers as mutilate.
Final note: Gear and spec don't put you on top of the meter unless everyone is playing perfectly. Effort puts you on top. Play to the strengths of your gear and spec, know your tank, know your situation. Someone playing an "inferior" spec well can often beat someone playing a "superior" spec poorly, but if that person playing well can also play the "superior" spec well, they can do even better.
I'm not certain if it's optimal, but I'm currently 41/20/0 DW Mutilate and I still tend to focus on my Hit Rating. Typically about 50% of my total damage comes from white hits, while only 30% comes from Mutilate, so I feel like landing those hits between Mutilates goes a long way in helping my sustained DPS. Also, by placing emphasis on my Hit Rating, when the inevitable respec to ComDag occurs (very soon) for SSC and The Eye, I won't gimp myself.
That said, I've always felt that the strength of Mutilate exists in the insane combo point generation. As stated previously, it's ultra violence for the old in and out; you are never more than two Mutilates away from up and running, and all your down time (feared, stunned, whatever) just allows you to recover that minimum energy required to pick things back up or kick-start your cycle again. ComDag might deal more damage, but I always feel sluggish as hell playing it, because it takes... forever... to... get... going. Maybe I'm just doing it wrong?
I've been raiding as 41/20/0 since we started karazhan, (now on Vashj), and have always been extremely competitive against the other combat sword rogues, and could nearly always beat the mace rogue. Even beating them on occasion :o , however, we always run with an enhancement shaman, so we have wind fury, so that probably favours them more than me, when it may not be a normal set up for some Guilds
You really need to have an understanding of maximising find weakness etc to play it best. But it's definitely viable, competitive even. Not to mention fun as in PvP
05/06/07, 1:43 PM
Similar Threads
