Going off topic the topic of gear and back to the thing everyone loves to argue about: spec.

I have always been the imp DS - I've gone through all of BC content as Imp DS spec'd and it's worked fine for me.

However, recently I've gotten the itch to go full holy, and after looking at the numbers with my guild's theorycrafter, we decided that the effect imp DS is minimal (we don't have any resto druids so the case may have changed a bit there). So I went ahead and tried a pretty solid holy spec (CoH and the whole shabang) and I'm enjoying it very much.

However, after talking with the guild theorycrafter again, he took back what he said about Divine Spirit (note: not Improved Divine Spirit) - and thinks the mana regen loss is substantial.

There's much discussion about how much healing and dps ImpDS offers, but what about the mana regen that plain old Divine Spirit brings? We're working on Illidan now and that's a really long fight - how valuable would 50 more spirit be? Would a spec like this be reasonable (Divine Spirit and 5/5 Empowered Healing) or should you really just go for full ImpDS?

Well, just Divine Spirit sounds like a strange buff, why wouldn't you go for full imp DS? Is two more points in Empowered Healing more worth it?

Anyway, 50 spirit * 1.15 (Kings & SoR) = 57.5 spirit ~= 36 MP5 out of combat and ~17 MP5 in combat at 75% FSR according to my numbers. As well as ~+15 heal or so. For priests. Also good for mage evocation and druid innervate.

I saved myself a lot of hard decisions by dropping tailoring after I made my Truefaith Vestments!
Unfortunately it also cursed me to a life of Hallowed Garments until we can Kael down.

Completely off-topic, I realize, but this has been driving me crazy of late.

Apologies if I'm missing something obvious, but why can't you get the t4 chest from Magtheridon? It's a decent upgrade to the Hallowed robes, and fairly easy to get.

I never got it, and we don't do Mag anymore. ><

Shouldn't have been such a cheapskate back then!

And I myself am also curious about the benefits of (improved) DS. And how would the new changes for priest (Meditation too 30% and CoH changes) affect the choice of speccing?

In my opinion one of the big reasons to get imp DS is the damage buff. If you have 10 damage casters in the raid and they have say 200 spirit raid-buffed then over the whole raid that's +200 damage which isn't negligible.

It is a bit like a survival hunter (imp Exposed Weakness), sure it might be worse for just that one person but the buff to the raid is really nice.

Of course having CoH might help with group healing, but you could just take a Shaman instead who'd chain heal as well as bring a heroism. We holy priests are lacking enough in utility without speccing out of the one special raid buff we can have. :/

The Meditation boost has a minimal effect on the decision to go iDS/CoH. Priests and druids may weight spirit a bit more heavily in their gear choice but it's going to be a matter of an extra +10 - 20 dmg/healing, hardly groundbreaking. I can't see mages/moonkin choosing spirit gear either, particularly given the (IMO retarded) changes to how evocation works.

Also, it's difficult to evaluate the changes to AoE heals like CoH until the new coefficients are revealed. However, even if the change is reasonably substantial, making CoH more efficient and/or powerful doesn't change the fact that it's a situational-but-spammable heal: chances are if you prefer to spec it now, you will like it more post-patch, but if you prefer iDS, the increased efficiency/power won't be sufficient to change your mind.

Ah the big question how much regen does DS provide. I'm gonna tackle this is a sort of stream of thought fashion so if I ramble a bit or otherwise forget stuff forgive me, and I'm sure someone earlier posted similar information but since someone asked it again.

First the benefits obviously vary based on raid composition, the specific encounter, and numerous other variables so the basic premise here would be quantify how much benefit a given class/spec gets based on their time spent inside/outside the fsr( five second rule).

Its fair straightforward the specific benefits of spirit:

first priests ofsr 4 spr = 1 mp2 ds = 50+ .15 from kings/SoR = 14.375 m/2 while not casting
non-SoR priests get 13.75 mp/2 from DS while not casting
Mages also get 13.75 mp/2 from Ds while not casting
Hunters, shamans, paladins, Locks all get 11 mp/2 from DS. ( 55/5)
treeform druids with kings + spirit talent get 14 mp/2 ofsr ( 55 x .15) + 55 /4.5
non spirit talented druids get 12.2 mp/2

Thats the easy part. Next you have to calculate there mana regen from spirit while casting.
For locks, hunters, shamans, and paladins this is easy its 0( ignoring bangle of endless blessings which none of these classes are likely to use), and for Mages you have to consider both mage armor and/or Arcane meditation, druids and priests also get mana regen while casting. Since its more relevant to my interests I'll provide comparisons for if the buff to 30% goes lives for these talents.

SoR priests get 2.16 mp/2 or 4.32 with 30% while casting ( 14.375 x .15)
non SoR priests/mages get 2.1 mp/2 ifsr or 4.1 in 2.3
Mages also get an additional 4.1 mp/2 if they use mage armor
spirit druids get 2.1 mp/2 or 4.2 mp2 in 2.3
other druids w/regen while casting get 1.83 mp/2 or 3.7 mp/2 in 2.3

I apologize for the rounding... I got really tired writing this > >

From here you need to factor in how for fights with breaks in the action ( like say kael phase shifts as an easy example) you need to calculate time spent osfr. If you want an easy "guesstimate" you can check your DPS times in WWS for your mages and such. its not anywhere near 100% accurate with DoTs and the like but its probably the easiest way to get at least in the ballpark.

then simply for each class/person take their time spent ofsr x ofsr regen value + time isfr x isfr regen value = value of DS for that person/class on that encounter. Add them all up and viola you've quantified the value of DS on your raids mana regen... Except for Evocate but I'm really not familiar enough with the spell post any specifics there.

And obviously if you want to convert mp/2 values into more "comparable" mp/5 values simply multiply by 2.5.

So for some quick examples mages with mage armor get 10.25/mp/5 from ds whiel casting, and non SoR priests will gain a similar amount as well in 2.3

If you are working on Illidan, there's really no reason at all to spec for DS or even IDS for that fight. Your guilds gear level has easily outgeared the need for the +damage/healing increase, and the regen part is very easy on Illidan because there's so many phase changes and a lot of time to regen. However CoH is extremely good on Illidan: when regarding healing, the only challenging part of the fight is phase 2, and that's where the CoH really shines. You need 2 healers for each of the Flame tanks, so it leaves ~4 healers to heal the raid on balanced setup. 2 shamans + 2 CoH priests will have no trouble at all heal the raid damage, and the priests can even help healing healing the Flame tanks at some points.

Ah, DS vs CoH. For a very, very long time I thought divine spirit was better. Then, just before I stepped into Mount Hyjal for first time, I decided to try Circle of Healing spec. Cleared both Hyjal and Black Temple now, and I'm severely addicted to Circle of Healing.

Circle of Healing gives you the ability to heal heavy raid damage. Best thing about Circle of healing is that it's instant. It ignores all damage interruption(/pushback?) and you can cast it while moving. For me it's very rare to hit less than 3 targets when healing with Circle of Healing. This spell is limited by 2 seemingly major factors, range and party. "15 yard range" seems to be very little, but it's more than it looks. With 20% range increase from talents Circle of healing heals an area 36 yards wide (18 yards + 18 yards, the person you targetted being the central point). The "party only" limitation is nasty, but it gives the spell predictability: you know who it's going to hit.

I'm not having any real mana problems so regen provided by Divine Spirit is not needed by me. I'd much rather have extra healing utility provided by Circle of Healing.

Kael is maybe the only encounter where IDS really is so much better than CoH that even respeccing is a good option. The DPS that mattered for us was the ranged caster DPS, it was always the caster only target's that were last alive even with stacked setup. If your guild is just starting to learn the encounter, the average caster gear level is not very high yet, and even though a lot of DPS increase can be gained by the weapons and the %damage modifiers they offer, every second on the ranged targets like the Buru guy matters a lot. On the other hand, CoH is quite useless on the encounter, only p4/5 might have some limited uses when melee takes AoE damage. After Kael it's CoH domination.

Not to disagree with you that CoH is better personally for the Priest--it almost always is--but isn't the remark above actually an arguement that makes DS -more- useful rather than less? After all, the more phase change breaks there are, the more useful DS is as a raid-wide mana regen tool due to many classes being able to get OO5SR when otherwise they would not, is it not?

Do you need to regen more mana when you are at full mana? Illidan is not a DPS fight and they are limited by threat on many phases and can't use maximum spell rotations. Healers on the other hand can get long periods of out of 5 second rule, and the fight is not healing intensive at all other than p2 (and we bring 8 healers because of P2, other phases could be done with 5). And those people who are having manaproblems should be put on shadow priest groups, and innervate/mana tide the spriests if needed. Since the fight is so long, every cooldown like Shadow Fiend, Innervate and Mana Tide can be used several time, and things like Earring of Soulful Meditation can be used on moments when you get full duration of maximum manaregen. Also, since the fight is so long, you have option to use even ~10x manapotions, which you might want to do just in case when you are going for the first kill of the last boss currently ingame. The need for manapots goes away very fast when you learn the encounter though. So, overall the IDS is not needed at all on that encounter, but CoH can make the hardest part of it almost trivial.

Hi Im just wondering what the view is on Spell Haste for priests in Mount Hyjal/ Black Temple I brought this discussion up in the wow europe priest forums but found myself eaten alive by shadow priests laying claim to the items. I just want some advice as to whether the loss of stats on an item such as pm or belt of the long road would allow one to wear an item such as angelistas sash with viability. I always found the scarab of infinate cycles usful how far can haste help healing from a holy priests perspective especially after 2.3?

This data is from US boards and US PTR, so second hand information for me and might be wrong.

Base amount change:
Circle of Healing Now:
499-551

Circle of Healing in 2.3:
409-451

For this and from the info that you need 1338 to heal more with CoH than currently, you can calculate the coefficient: it's exactly half of 1.5/3.5, meaning each target will receive ~21.4% of your +healing. Old value was 14.3%.

For me with 2358 unbuffed +healing and 5/5 Spiritual Healing the numbers look like this:
Circle of Healing Now:
920-977

Circle of Healing in 2.3:
1006-1048

Well, at least Blizzard managed to not to make this overpowered. I'm a bit dissapointed how low the base amount is, 25-50 more would have been quite good. It would have allowed guaranteed 4 digit numbers with a bit crappier gear. However, CoH is now one of our best scaling direct heals together with 5/5 Empowered Healing powered Greater Heal: both get 105% bonus of our +healing per single cast. If CoH hits 5 targets, it would heal 5030-5240 per cast for me. If you look like this and compare to the manacost, the spell is one of our most manaefficient spells. We can't forget that this is after all an instant spell.

Edit: Looks like PW:S got buffed to 30% of +healing from the previous +20%. With my gear and 3/3 Improved PW:S the value are like this:

Live:
2057 absorbed.

2.3:
2267 absorbed.

So quite decent buff.

This is pretty much the size of changes that I expected. A nice increase but nothing outstanding. I'm still pleasantly amazed about 30% meditation however; 40-70 free while-casting mp5 is certainly no "baby step".

I do like that PW:S is buffed thought. I'm a firm believer in that use of the spell to save people so another heal can land; it's unique to the priest class and should not be a spell thrown aside because of a lack of efficiency.

I love Circle of Healing and for me it feels great to have another healing spell in my toolbar. I use it in every chance and in some circumstances it is the most mana and time efficient spell I can cast.

However, I rely on another priest in my raiding guild to buff the Improved Divine Spirit. If for some reason he can't make it to the raid, I go to the trainer and reset my talents to get it.

The reason for it is not so much that I need it personally, but the fact that the other casters and healers in the raid ask for it. I wouldn't feel nice taking away ~20 spell dmg minimum from any caster, who comes with their gloves enchanted with +20 spell dmg or taking away 50+ spirit and 20-50 plus healing from any healer...

I know it's not that much of an important buff, but in a raid every little bit helps. If you think otherwise then you end up going around with un-enchanted gear and green-quality gems in sockets and this is an idea that I wouldn't like to encourage in my guild.

I'm also curious about your thoughts on haste now that I've seen that items in Zul'Aman seem to be dropping with a lot of haste on them. My gut feeling is that haste is very situationally useful and too damaging to mana regen to be worth it. Increasing my HPS while lowering my mana regen just makes me lose mana at both ends.

Now in some fights it might be useful, but overall? Sure having a faster greater heal is nice, but you have to sacrifice so much to get any useful speed increase imo. Just to get a greater heal from 2.5 to 2.4 seconds needs 4% haste.

One interesting neck that has dropped is [Brooch of Nature's Mercy]. A comparable item would be [Teeth of Gruul] I guess, even though the Brooch has more +heal.

Is 1.6% spell haste worth 8mp5? Can they even be compared since they do such vastly different things? Should it be compared to +heal instead since they both increase HPS?

Update: Sigh.. I've seen four or five healing items now from ZA and almost every single one has lots of spell haste and 0 mana regen. Am I just not seeing the point of haste? The exceptions so far are the healing staff and the chestpiece.

I hope this isn’t to far of the regular topics of gear, talent and spec.

Wondering if anyone has any pearls of wisdom around MT healing, essentially to reduce over healing as much as possible.

Are there any mods, etc, getting at a boss’s swing timer so I can land more preemptive heals. I know healer competition and tank avoidance makes this difficult but any ideas, tips would be appreciated.

I can see myself stacking spell haste for trash and extremely short boss fights which require high HPS.

I've been able to do some testing on the PTR, so I thought I would add my observations on a topic close to every Holy Priest's heart: DPS

Question: Has the addition of spell damage to healing gear made killing stuff less of a chore than it is now?

Answer: Yes, yes, oh my god yes. Exclamation marks.

I gave my priest the same all-heal, no-DPS talent Holy spec she has on the live realms. I equipped her with her usual full healing set. Her +heal was around 1750, and spell damage clocked in at 667 according to the character screen. (Her gear is mixture of tier 4, tier 5, and pre-raid blues).

Test 1: Legion Hold.

I've done next to no rep grinding for Aldor stuff, because let's face - grinding while Holy specced on live is zero fun. Grinding on PTR - spectacularly easy. In most cases Power Word: Shield lasted until the mob was dead, so no spell pushback, and no damage taken. I probably used a quarter of my mana pool. Without trying to race from mob to mob, I didn't really have to drink - natural mana regen between pulls did most of the work. The kills might be slower than a pure DPS class, but the difference between grinding on the Live servers in DPS gear, and on the PTR is night and day.

Test 2: Skettis

Ok, normal mobs aren't much of a challenge. But how good is it really? Next challenge: Talonsworn Forest-Rager. These are the Elite trees that wander around Skettis. Some classes can solo them on the live severs; I wasn't one of them.

First attempt I died with the tree at 3% when I ran out of mana. Second attempt I killed it. I used an Inner Focus on the second kill, but no Shadowfiend, pots or other consumables - just a combination of self-heals and several fears.

So my short summary: the changes are absolutely fricking awesome for holy priests. Killing stuff solo for cash, rep, items or whatever is actually fun again.

Edit: With 4/5 Mental Agility, PW:Fortitude is 644 mana and Prayer of Fortitude is 1656 mana.