The Feral Druid Pants Dilemma

Kazanir · 05/09/07, 1:23 AM

This is not a whine thread, since I'm (obviously) happy with the direction that itemization is going. I want it to be a discussion about the following phenomenon as it relates to the raiding feral druid (who is mostly offtank, sometimes main tank, and sometimes straight DPS.)

[Greaves of Malorne]

640 Armor
+42 Strength
+32 Agility
+39 Stamina
+26 Intellect

[Heavy Clefthoof Leggings] (socketed with 2xSolid Star + 1xEnduring Talasite)

503 Armor
+63 Stamina
Equip: Increases dodge rating by 4.
Equip: Increases defense rating by 33.

[Clefthoof Hide Leggings]

243 Armor
+30 Strength
+30 Agility
+24 Stamina
Equip: Improves hit rating by 17.
Equip: Increases feral combat skill rating by 18.

Now let's translate these into actual stats for bear form and cat form in a raid buffed setting (aka with Kings.)

[Greaves of Malorne]

3520 Armor
696 HP
2.31% dodge

150 AP
1.45% crit
530 Mana

[Heavy Clefthoof Leggings]

2767 Armor
1218 HP
.55% can't crit me
.76% dodge
.55% can't touch this

0 AP
0 other cat stats

[Clefthoof Hide Leggings]

1337 Armor (lol)
428 HP
2.31% dodge

117 AP
2.00% crit
1.26% hit
.18% dodge this!

I find it interesting that the new Tier 4 pants are not a "true upgrade" from either the best DPS or best tanking blues around, due to their hybrid nature. One can make an argument for either, but the Tier 4 totally lacks +hit or +feral combat, which hurts vs. CHL, and also lacks the huge stam and +def of TCL, replacing it with more threat, avoidance, and armor.

At the beginning of the Druid Roles of Grief Thread I posted a proposed Tier 4 set. The new feral tier gear looks remarkably similar (huge physical stats, massive armor) but is also lacking two key elements that I included: the +hit that a cat wants and the large amounts of stam a bear needs.

Where does that take us in the future with the tiered gear sets? Do the huge Str/Agi combos make up for the lack of +hit for a cat? Does the huge armor and the threat and avoidance make up for the lack of more stam on the bear gear? I hope the answer is yes (and obviously there are no craftables on the Tier 5 level to consider, so maybe the point will be moot.)

Thoughts?

Umph · 05/09/07, 1:52 AM

The problem with Druid tanking is that a decent amount (compared to Warriors) of our threat is based upon the damage we do. Heavy Clefthoof is great mitigation, but zero threat generation. Malorne is the sweet spot between threat output and damage input on those 3 pieces of leg armour. Not to mention that the four piece Malorne bonus is wonderful for Bear tanking.

When you start thinking about hit don't completely discount the fact we can get a substantial amount from rings, belt, weapon, etc - we don't need to achieve the levels that Rogues and Warriors do thanks to our lack of dual wielding. Having said that I would definitely like to see some more hit on the tiered feral gear.

Quixotic · 05/09/07, 2:14 AM

The nice thing about the pants are you have both tanking and dps stats, so they excel in situations where you have to tank and dps; which is a huge advantage over warriors in prot gear. Think Magtheridon, Hydross, Fathom-Lord, Leotheras, Lurker Below, etc. Anything that you have to offtank for a portion of a fight, then dps the rest, having a hybridised set of gear makes you that much better than a warrior at offtanking.

Lavode · 05/09/07, 2:25 AM

I netherclefted malorne within 6 minutes of getting them, partially in anticipation of the changes. They are a rather massive mitigation upgrade on clefthoof - increasing the "effective life" effect of the sta on the rest of my kit, so I am never going to wear clefthoof over them and since they are my second piece of t4.. they are possibly a dps upgrade on the other clefthoof too, (ferocity procs are a fairly big deal) and in any case.. I like my cat gear being viable emergency tank kit, as that is one of the points of having a cat. Play chicken with ktm, and if the tank dies, hope you are really fast with the shifting.

Valerian · 05/09/07, 2:37 AM

In looking at my gear on test I am way over the defense cap with the heavy clefthoof legs and chest. That said once I switch my Earthwarden for a Wildfury Greatstaff I would be below the defense cap of 415 if I switch the Heavy Clefthoof for Malorne. With pretty minor differences between Clefthoof (with 3 x shifting nightseye) and Malorne it doesnt seem like a good trade IMO. Similarly Forestwalker Kilt with 3 x 8 agi gems in it is a superior dps piece to clefthoof hide leggings AND Marlorne and is still quite good for tanking in the times you need to be a "hybrid" where uncrittability isnt always necessary (like on early Mag Channelers or the adds on Lurker).

Ziggyny · 05/09/07, 5:18 AM

Originally Posted by Umph

The problem with Druid tanking is that a decent amount (compared to Warriors) of our threat is based upon the damage we do. Heavy Clefthoof is great mitigation, but zero threat generation. Malorne is the sweet spot between threat output and damage input on those 3 pieces of leg armour. Not to mention that the four piece Malorne bonus is wonderful for Bear tanking.

This actually isn't true anymore. Generally speaking a warrior will be using 3 devastates and a shield slam every 6 seconds, a bear will be using 3 lacerates and a mangle in the same timeframe. With a non-dagger weapon the warrior actually gains more threat per attack power than the druid does.

I've also never found I had a threat problem on my bear. I'll certainly take more AP if I can get it, more is obviously better, but I've felt like I needed to make sacrifices to pick up more AP.

That being said, I actually feel the new T4 are better tanking pants than the new clefthoof pants from a sheer staying alive point of view. You should be getting enough defense from the rest of your gear that you're really only getting extra avoidance off the clefthoof and not crit reduction as well. The extra ac and dodge make up for the lack of hp, I believe.

Valerian · 05/09/07, 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggyny

You should be getting enough defense from the rest of your gear that you're really only getting extra avoidance off the clefthoof and not crit reduction as well. The extra ac and dodge make up for the lack of hp, I believe.

Im only finding Im getting enough defense if I dont use ANY other T4 pieces of gear + legs. All the tier sets have no def on them so it starts getting harder and harder to hit the 415 cap especially if you replace Earthwarden. Anyone else finding this?

Paniolo · 05/09/07, 11:47 AM

Never socket any druid gear with enduring talasite, IMO. 3x solid stars, or 2x solid stars and either pure agi or sta/agi. Enduring talasite + socket bonus is not as good as any of those assuming you're at 415 - and I figure if you're wearing Heavy Clefthoof you are.

dukes · 05/09/07, 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by Valerian

Im only finding Im getting enough defense if I dont use ANY other T4 pieces of gear + legs. All the tier sets have no def on them so it starts getting harder and harder to hit the 415 cap especially if you replace Earthwarden. Anyone else finding this?

Resillience is the way to go tbh. I've got the Timelapse Shard and the PvP belt (generals dragonhide) as it's the only way i'm going to be able to be crit immune if I get 4 piece t4. Also thinking that post-2.1 the cloak off Terestian would be worthwhile, as it's a trade of 5 stam for 24 defence rating against the Thoriumweave which is certainly worth it imo even if you are hit capped (24 rating = 10 defence = 0.4% miss + 0.4% dodge).

The only problem is, post patch I'll probably use the Razor-Scale cloak for most tanking (primarily because the armour cloaks have 0 dps stats), so I need to work without it. I've also got gladiators gloves sitting in my bags enchanted, in case I hit a point where I need even more resillience.

Farstrider · 05/10/07, 3:42 AM

Originally Posted by Paniolo

Never socket any druid gear with enduring talasite, IMO. 3x solid stars, or 2x solid stars and either pure agi or sta/agi. Enduring talasite + socket bonus is not as good as any of those assuming you're at 415 - and I figure if you're wearing Heavy Clefthoof you are.

Haha at first I thought Enduring Talasite were the way to go. I must have bought & had cut around 9-10 of them before I realised that after the HCL buffs (after which I'll wear the 3-set) I'll be way over the cap. It's so frustrating when you end up with a whole bank bag full of 300-500g worth of stuff that you're pretty sure noone wants!

Umph · 05/10/07, 4:01 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggyny

This actually isn't true anymore. Generally speaking a warrior will be using 3 devastates and a shield slam every 6 seconds, a bear will be using 3 lacerates and a mangle in the same timeframe. With a non-dagger weapon the warrior actually gains more threat per attack power than the druid does.

I've also never found I had a threat problem on my bear. I'll certainly take more AP if I can get it, more is obviously better, but I've felt like I needed to make sacrifices to pick up more AP.

Druids very much depend upon their damage still, particularily critical strikes to gain the extra rage, if a Druid starts kitting themselves out entirely in gear with no str/agi (clefthoof) they're not going to put out the same level of TPS that a Druid with more balanced gear can. I think this is going to be even more prevalant when 2.1 goes live and we suddenly have even less incoming damage to generate rage for us. I personally don't agree with the rotation comparison, and haven't seen Druids completely ignoring Maul like the rotation you list seems to advocate - but that's a personal experience thing and I don't think I can submit it as proof of anything.

as an aside: If you're after gear with decent armour mixed with some str/agi the various heroic pieces are quite good, in particular the belt and bracers.

Originally Posted by Valerian

Im only finding Im getting enough defense if I dont use ANY other T4 pieces of gear + legs. All the tier sets have no def on them so it starts getting harder and harder to hit the 415 cap especially if you replace Earthwarden. Anyone else finding this?

The defense trinket in SSC whose name escapes me seems extremely good for Druids due to this.

Pidgeonholing yourself into always wearing particular pieces for resilience isn't all that smart I feel, as you'll have difficulty mainaining immunity when a truly fantastic piece for one of those slots drops.

• Vykromond · 05/10/07, 4:16 AM

Scarab of Displacement?

Personally I like picking up much more +def and resilience pieces than I really need so I can mix-and-match every time I get a better piece without +def for a given slot. Being able to get crit immunity without SotF would be kinda funny.

Umph · 05/10/07, 6:01 AM

Originally Posted by Vykromond

Scarab of Displacement?

That's the one. I don't really like stacking all my eggs in one basket, and I suppose that really shows in my reply.

Tierce · 05/10/07, 9:50 AM

The fact that I'm currently way over the +hit cap and Defense cap means that those would be upgrades for me from those two blues. Now granted when you shift into more Tier 4, you're going to be dropping a lot of +hit and Defense, but Tier 4 is only a 5 piece set, and it has sockets. You can find a way to fit in what you need. I finally go to the point where I could shed Drake Fang Talisman, but I know I'll be using it again when I have more Tier 4 pieces.

Cronjob · 05/10/07, 11:26 AM

Glad to see the Hevy CLeft set is getting a buff in armor. I have a chest and boots with double the armor it currently has and really nice stats overall +23 stam, agil, strength... But since I needed the defense which I was still using them.