Tahapenes

Once you are farming SSC and TE, there is no point to any of the Tailoring patterns that came from outside those instances. T5 Shoulders and Pants beat FSW Shoulders and Spellstrike Pants, Robe of Hateful Echoes (Hydross) and T5 Robe beat FSW Robe, Collar of the Grand Engineer (Void Reaver) beats Spellstrike Hood, Boots of Shifting Nightmare (Hydross) beat FSW boots, and Cord of Screaming Terrors (Lurker) beats Ruination. Overall, the Tailoring gear is to give you a leg up in Karazhan, Gruul, and Magtheridon as well as give you some gear till you can get your hands on the items I listed above. Eventually, everything a tailor can make prior to SSC and TE will be outdated once they get loot from SSC and TE (and that's for all Warlock specs).

 

Noximus

That's my issue right now. I can't substitute trinkets as im using the EoM/Icon combo. I am altough re-thinking my gem choices. I was thinking of getting rid of my crit since we now have a ISB warlock in the raid.

Extih <Apocalypse> - Raid Leader - 70 Warlock (Retired)
Noximus <Apocalypse> - 70 Warrior (Retired)

 

Dinadass

So switch in some dmg/hit gems to your pants, and use the cenarion exalted ring instead of the scryer one. Voila! 35 more hit rating.

 

Dinadass

T5 pants don't beat spellstrike in my opinion. T5 have 2 more hit, 6 more crit, 9 more damage. Spellstrike have 2 extra sockets though, which can give 10 damage and 8 hit. Granted they do have less stam, but stam really isn't an issue in raiding atm. I also don't plan on getting a collar from void reaver if we see one drop. Losing the spellstrike set bonus would hurt, since it procs a ton. If there was a hidden cooldown on it I would probably get rid of it, but the set bonus outweighs the fairly slim stat upgrades given by the collar.

 

Stilfor

I have never been able to sustain higher DPS than I am now as 30/21/10. For reference:

http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/#c...olde&n=Stilfor

I have been 42/0/19, 40/0/21, 1/39/21, 0/21/40 and just about every other raid spec you can imagine- None of them can seem to keep up with 30/21/10. If any of you have yet to try this build I would highly suggest giving it a try. The lack of threat reduction on Destruction spells can be tricky at times on agro-senstive encounters but with a good tank and Soulshatter it's generally a non-issue.

 

Demi9OD

Mathematically it should not be able to keep up with 0/21/40, the loss of 8% crit is really what kills the build, as well as the lack of any real raid synergy. 43/0/18 builds bring Malediction, Shadow Embrace, and an Imp for the group to the table. 0/21/40 brings the highest personal DPS and high Imp SB uptime. 30/21/10 is a compromise between the two but has none of these benefits.

 

tetracycloide

Nothing ever beats frozen shadow weave boots in an affliction build with hit capped DoTs and that's with +9 dmg gems. After you get into hyjal and BT level gems FSW pulls even further away. I suppose there could be a very brief period where you needed the hit on boots of the shifting nightmare due to regearing from instance to instance but why waste the DKP when the FSW boots are better most of the time anyway.

I'd wager the set bonus on spell strike makes it better than any other leg/head combo in SSC and The Eye but I don't have those numbers in front of me ATM.

 

Stilfor

I'm not sure where our math differs but I have 30/21/10 coming out ahead of 0/21/40 by a healthy margin. Give it a try.

Edit: I honestly haven't seen a meter or wws on this forum to make me think otherwise either.

 

tetracycloide

Are you sure you're factoring the 5% loss to crit from devestation?

After factoring that in I have the two specs at nearly identical DPS in a solo situation and full 41 affliction significantly ahead in a raid due to a much higher average raid ISB uptime vs. the pet sac build you have that probably drops raid ISB uptime 5-7% conservativly.

Destruction isn't even close, way ahead in both areas.

 

galzohar

spellstrike is 5% proc chance with no cooldown. Wasting procs due to overriding procs is possible but not too common.

 

Demi9OD

Debuffs are realistic for our raids (1 Malediction Lock). I leave hit at 15.9 even though I'm slightly over cap so I can leave nextstat and item compare working. Life Tap is not checked, since I am almost always in a 2sp group, and if I do need to tap I always save it for times that I am moving.

30/21/10


0/21/40

 

evilhacker

Is anyone getting anywhere near theoretical DPS? According to the spreadsheet found elsewhere, with my gear and spec, I should be getting 880-960 depending on pet but I've yet to come close to that - my best so far is just over 500dps and that was flasked, oiled, and with a food buff, a shadow priest, and a shaman.

What the hell am I doing wrong? I use quarts and a stopcasting macro, I've respecced from Affliction to demonology in the hopes that fewer DoTs mean less opportunity loss and in search of better threat reducers. It improved my DPS by 75 but I can't seem to improve beyond that.

Any tips?

 

Demi9OD

And another just for fun

1/41/19

 

galzohar

Only things that can cause a great reduction from theoretical DPS (small reductions could be caused by stuff like base 24 resistance not taken into account etc) is simply the nature of the fight. If you go click cubes on mag, get groundslammed on grul, swap targets on just about any fight with more than just the boss etc, that's a lot of time lost. Also every time you mess up with the /stopcasting macro is a lot of lost time (still use it, but practice not messing up ;p). Of course also make sure you use the spell rotation that was used in the theorycraft ;p

 

Demi9OD

Very few fights are really Patchwerk style anymore. Make sure you are checking off lifetap for realistic DPS without duel shadow priest batteries, and realize every millisecond you are not casting due to movement or other duties drops your dps. If you can eliminate those factors you can push close to theoretical. 1550-1600 dps is actually attainable in real world settings.

 

Stilfor

Honestly, the spreadsheet is all fine and dandy but it doesn't take into account extraneous variables such as the design of the encounter or number of attackable mobs.

Now, even more so than pre-TBC, fights where we are continually allowed to stand still and chain cast shadow bolts are becoming less and less frequent. Of course you can minimize the effect with smart positioning and planning but you cannot deny the heavily movement oriented nature of BC encounters. I'm also sure it's obvious to everyone that DoTs are more valuable/efficient than straight DD in heavily movement oriented fights. Also, the list of fights where there are multiple attackable mobs has increased dramatically since pre-TBC.

These are all things spreadsheets don't take into account. Sure, in an ideal, contained situation 0/21/40 should out pace 30/21/10 but I'll have a hell of an easier time sustaining that DPS on a much wider variety of encounters. Theoretical =/= actual.

Not to mention encounters like Hydross, Lurker, Morogrim, Vashj, and so on that allow you to DoT multiple mobs or keep heavy DoTs on the main target while assisting on a secondary target and completely making the spreadsheet moot and allowing 30/21/10 to really shine.

Edit: 2 Shadow Priests in a Warlock group is not happening in our guild either. Shaman sure but Shadow Priests are best served elsewhere though imo.

 

tetracycloide

Full affliction is superior to the 30/21/10 build for the exact reasons you outline it being superior to 0/21/40. It's more self sufficent, more mobile, and has an extra DoT to work with on extra mobs. On top of that it's also more party friendly because it can contribute to raid ISB uptime vs. a devestationless build that spams SB more often that reduces raid ISB uptime and it keeps a pet out that can provide a substaintial party stam buff by default.

Considering full affliction is superior for movement based fights and for tank and spank fights and contributes more to the raid I'm not sure what the alure is behind the 30/21/10 build really. Maybe if you're bumping the debuff limit a lot and yet still need multi-target DPS but other than that...

 

Stilfor

Except that full affliction doesn't have DS or DA and hence, the damage output potential.

 

Tahapenes

There's more reason to get to 16% hit without using Suppression than with. Our biggest tool for sustaning our DPS is not an Affliction based spell, thus showing Suppression is of no help. In that case, BoSN is going to be better than FSW Boots, even if you gem the FSW boots properly to get the hit bonus. Don't underestimate how useful +hit is for an Affliction Warlock even with Suppression, because a large amount of your damage is going to depend on non-Affliction based spells to hit (Shadowbolt and Soul Shatter).

 

tetracycloide

Full affliction is better damage than 30/21/10 if you factor in ISB uptime changes, 5% more crit on shadow bolt, and unstable affliction. You have to take the whole picture into account, you can't just assume that your crit rating drops 5% and you spam SB more yet the raid ISB uptime doesn't change.

 

tetracycloide

Suppression changes the value of +hit on gear in an affliction based build. Once DoTs are hit capped the gains on +hit drop significantly. If you want to argue that it's easier to hit cap with the hit on BoSN and you have to hit cap for soulshatter then I'll grant you that. If you're trying to say that the DPS added to SB is worth the loss of the +dmg on SB and the DoTs combined when the DoTs are already hit capped then I'm going to have to dissagree. It's not like the point in supression can be moved into a DPS talent.

The fact still remains, the FSW boots are considerably more accessable, cheeper (I value rights to raid drops more than a couple k gold I can farm any time I want), and much more versital. Once you get into the BT hyjal gem range FSW boots go right back to being the unquestionably better choice, it's only even arguable for a narrow range of gear. There are simply better places to pick up the +hit you need to cap without gimping the massive +dmg advantage of the boots IMO.

 

Stilfor

I understand that, I guess I just disagree.

 

Tahapenes

And this (the bold) is where you are wrong. It don't matter squat if your DoTs are hit capped or not, what matters is if your Soul Shatter is or not. Nothing, and I mean absolutely nothing, will lower an Affliction Warlock's DPS then having a Soul Shatter be resisted. I've had it happen to me even with my +11% spell hit (and I'm still trying to get more) and when it happens to you as well, you will realize that +spell hit up to 16% is the most important thing that we can look at on items. Having a Soul Shatter resist means you cannot maintain a high DPS, you might as well be a mage that is out of mana, used all your +mana items, and reduced to wanding to do DPS. This is why BoSN are better than FSW Boots, you just cannot get the same amount of +spell hit into FSW Boots as you get from BoSN, and +22 spell damage isn't going to be anything if your Soul Shatter gets resisted.

As I stated elsewhere, the FSW set and Spellstrike set will get you past most the gear in Karazhan, Gruul, and Mag, but when it comes to the SSC and the Eye, dropped items are as good or better in pretty much all cases and the situation only increases when you get to Hyjal and BT. The updates to the gear in 2.1 made it so Tailoring items are inbetween Tier 4 and 5 or just under Tier 5, it's not like it was prior to 2.1 when Tailoring items blew away Tier 5 items.

 

tetracycloide

If you want to argue that it's easier to hit cap with the hit on BoSN and you have to hit cap for soulshatter then I'll grant you that.

Somehow I feel like I've already conceded this point...

You talk about the boots as if that's the only place you can possible get the last couple spell hit from, and that simply isn't the case. There are better options that offer the hit at a lower cost than BoSN for an affliction build. A weapon swap with high +hit on it, for example.

 

TheOnly

Even if you neglect soul shatter, +hit is STILL good even if capped affliction so long as your shadowbolts aren't capped.

When not hit capped in affliction, 10 hit rating is worth 11 to 13 + damage depending on spec and gear. For a full affliction build it is closer to 11 to 11.5.

If suppression has your DoT's hit capped, but not shadow bolt, 10 hit rating is still worth 7 to 8 + damage or thereabouts.

This does shift around the value of various items, but those with significant +hit are still very good.

Top 3 boots in this situation -- hit capped in affliciton but not otherwise is the following ( 1 int = 0.12; 1 crit = 0.4; 1 hit = 0.75 ; 1 shadow = 0.9; 1 damage = 1):
(int gives a tiny bit of crit)

http://www.lootzor.com/index.php?c=8...hebu.75haeau.9

Slippers of sea caller on top,
Frozen shadow weave just below,
and Boots of Shifting nightmare a tiny bit below that.

Given the importance of soulshatter, and the fact that I can take that point out of suppression and use it for more dps or utility, I know what I'd rather have. Flexibility, fewer shatter resists, and a crapton of stamina are personally better than a very small dps increase. I can make up that dps by having more flexibility and choices in my other gear.

If you are easily hit capped without your boots, to the full 16%, then you can get an upgrade by using fsw or the slippers.

I'm not sure I understand why saving a talent point isn't a good thing. For me, points not in supression if a PvP affliction spec go into devastation (41/5/11 +4). If pure PvE they go into improved CoA, malediction, amp curse/exaustion or shadow embrace (41/0/19 +1). For non-affliction, +hit is clearly extremely good.

A bit off topic, but for shadow priests.... FSW IS king, since they need very little hit, their tier and BG sets aren't optimal, and crit is almost totally useless. Its not so clear for warlocks.