Spreadsheets show destruction and affliction pretty damn close in DPS with quite a large variety of gear levels. I don't see how your experience contradicts the theory.
I was referring to destro vs. demo. All the spreadsheets, at least at or near my gear level (~1100 shadow, 13% hit) show demo being approximately equal to destro -- before you throw the 200 dps pet in the mix -- due to all the demonic improvement talents and 2/2 imp lifetap. So I expected that going from felguard to 0/21/40 would be a step down; instead it was a (small) step up, at least for personal dps.
Well your gear is not great. Demo in theory is a far better bad gear spec due to +damage from demon tactics being a way larger chunk of your damage. Demo also scales better with +damage than hit/crit further adding to this. I am surprised honestly you got any dps increase with the change. Heck, destruction even unbuffed in not ideal, its when you throw that extra +135 damage (and if you are really lucky a moonkin and shaman) at it that it really excels... Again it starts off worse but has superior scaling.
Likely not much with regards to dps calcs, however as I said a few pages ago, it is easier to /stopcast a 2.5 second spell than a 1.5 second spell.
In addition, the increased imp SB uptime (since you are just casting SB and some Curse) has an effect. Some guilds also may have only 1-2 Fire Mages (the others went Arcane or even Frost due to Al'ar), so that is less Scorch uptime and less reason to even use CoE.
Towards spell haste rating, the amount needs to reduction in spells is too much so that it is worth less than other stats in the item budget, and of course it doesn't help instant or 1.5 cast spells.
Originally Posted by Bogeywoman
So I expected that going from felguard to 0/21/40 would be a step down; instead it was a (small) step up, at least for personal dps.
Your felguard may not be getting buffs or just dieing too much due to no 2/5 Tier 5 or Shadow Priest. Destro doesn't need to worry about a pet .
It's actually very easy to /stopcast 1.5s spells due to the global cooldown being the best timer you can have, probably better than any addon too. However there is still a minimum amount of time lost between spells as had been already tested so in reality if you're very very good with your /stopcasting the amount of time you lose *per spell* is pretty much a fixed number, hence it comes into effect more times with a faster casting spells. However I don't see how this makes any difference in the spreadsheet as it lets you enter latency and see the difference right away.
I'm not sure why demon comes equal b4 pet on spreadsheets but not on top in reality after you add pet DPS. Maybe you're losing a lot of time saving your pet's ass which prevents you from paying full attention to your casts and /stopcasting? And this is all assuming your pet doesn't die and lose its buffs or else you're really screwed as a demon lock...
Likely not much with regards to dps calcs, however as I said a few pages ago, it is easier to /stopcast a 2.5 second spell than a 1.5 second spell.
This is definitely true and one of the chief reasons I think my DPS went up so much when I specced destro over affliction.
Originally Posted by frmorrison
In addition, the increased imp SB uptime (since you are just casting SB and some Curse) has an effect. Some guilds also may have only 1-2 Fire Mages (the others went Arcane or even Frost due to Al'ar), so that is less Scorch uptime and less reason to even use CoE.
We have maybe one weird frostie, but all the rest are some variant of fire or another. They are also pretty anal about keeping the scorch buff up and I was on CoE, so that was up.
I double checked the Leulier spreadsheet. While I saw nothing weird with the Immolate crit calculations (my first assumption when trying to figure out why this is happening), I did see that his effective cast time column is a little weird. Even with a lag of 0, it was giving me 1.52s as the cast time for Immolate. Checking it, I saw that he's placing the DPS loss from hit as a part of the effective cast time - an interesting methodology.
Just out of curiosity, I'm coming up on grabbing Vestments of the Sea Witch to go with my T5 shoulders and Spellstrike set, I was wondering if the changes made to 4pc T5 would make a significant change in DPS or if I should just save my DKP until T6. The stats on what I'm going for are better but with the change to 10% from 3% on the 4pc bonus it's a bit more sketchy on which setup is better.
I was wondering if the changes made to 4pc T5 would make a significant change in DPS or if I should just save my DKP until T6. The stats on what I'm going for are better but with the change to 10% from 3% on the 4pc bonus it's a bit more sketchy on which setup is better.
Depends on your guild and how much DKP you have. The Vashj vest is superior to the Lock Tier 5 vest.
The new set bonus does not stack, it is just 10% more damage to your corruption/immolate tics by 10% after casting a Shadowbolt/incinerate.
So you look at a common case with casting instant corruption then cast Shadow bolt right afterwards.
Look at normal raid buffed damage, here is a parse from me Loading... to see some average dot tics.
Corruption does an average 572 tics, doing it 6 times a cast. I would miss the first tic (due to GCD) unless I had a nightfall buff. So 5 tics would be buffed by 10%, normally 2860 damage, with Tier 5 would be 3146, an extra 286 per corruption or about 16 dps.
Also it buffs Immolate with an average 336 tic, but this time I would cast Incinerate right afterwards, to buff all 5 tics. So that would do 1848 damage instead of 1680, so an extra 168 or 11 dps. However, I would have to cast Incinerate instead of Shadow bolt, this appears to be not worth the lost potential of imp SB debuffs and taking into account my lower +fire gear and no Bane bonus.
So I would say the bonus isn't as good as other bonuses, but having 4/5 Tier 5 would be an upgrade to what you have equipped (your profile link is wrong btw), but likely the Vashj vest then saving for Tier 6 is a better move (unless the Tier 5 is going to rot).
Depends on your guild and how much DKP you have. The Vashj vest is superior to the Lock Tier 5 vest.
The new set bonus does not stack, it is just 10% more damage to your corruption/immolate tics by 10% after casting a Shadowbolt/incinerate.
So you look at a common case with casting instant corruption then cast Shadow bolt right afterwards.
Look at normal raid buffed damage, here is a parse from me Loading... to see some average dot tics.
Corruption does an average 572 tics, doing it 6 times a cast. I would miss the first tic (due to GCD) unless I had a nightfall buff. So 5 tics would be buffed by 10%, normally 2860 damage, with Tier 5 would be 3146, an extra 286 per corruption or about 16 dps.
Also it buffs Immolate with an average 336 tic, but this time I would cast Incinerate right afterwards, to buff all 5 tics. So that would do 1848 damage instead of 1680, so an extra 168 or 11 dps. However, I would have to cast Incinerate instead of Shadow bolt, this appears to be not worth the lost potential of imp SB debuffs and taking into account my lower +fire gear and no Bane bonus.
So I would say the bonus isn't as good as other bonuses, but having 4/5 Tier 5 would be an upgrade to what you have equipped (your profile link is wrong btw), but likely the Vashj vest then saving for Tier 6 is a better move (unless the Tier 5 is going to rot).
Yeah I just transferred servers :-P I was just unsure if the DPS increase from the proc was enough to make up for losing the stats on Vestments + Spellstrike.
With the recent changes to melee(glancing blows reduced, no more 360 degree cleave) its almost required to be a tailor to compete on dmg in early 25 man raids if your a caster. Most of the tailored sets are on par with T5 and in some cases better.
With the recent changes to melee(glancing blows reduced, no more 360 degree cleave) its almost required to be a tailor to compete on dmg in early 25 man raids if your a caster. Most of the tailored sets are on par with T5 and in some cases better.
I am seeking advice from all the 0-21-40 locks out there on a certain boss kill, and this seems to be the place to ask. We are currently on Kael, and have Vashj down now, but for that fight I have always run as 41-0-20, for obvious elemental duty reasons. Outside of this fight thou I have recently been running the 0-21-40 shadow mage build and loving it, thou I am concerned with running this build for the Vashj fight. Have any locks with this spec(o-21-40) done elemental duty successfully and if so any tips,pointers or is it just to intense to do? I do not mind respecing thou it would be nice on the wallet if I did not to have too. Thanks in advance for any comments and suggestions.
I successfully did elemental duty as destro lock. As they give soul shards, Shadowburn is viable here. We hit harder than mages...and with the correct use ( re:efficient) of our burst..elementals are not a problem.
I successfully did elemental duty as destro lock. As they give soul shards, Shadowburn is viable here. We hit harder than mages...and with the correct use ( re:efficient) of our burst..elementals are not a problem.
Are you using coa, bolting, shadowburning or using some other type of cast order here ?
First sorry for slow reply, been off on holiday for two weeks.
From what it seems you made small mistake when comparing our damage. Yes, on screen shots my total damage done is 386k and yours is 472k damage done, but my dps is: 1103 and your dps is 871. Answering very simply: what happened was your guild killed the boss a lot longer time than our guild.
example:
If you have 10 minutes time to nuke the boss (since raids total dps is lower) your personal total damage done is higher, but if another guild kills the boss in 5 minutes that raids members have only 50% of the time to dps the boss compared to guild that takes 10 minutes to kill the boss, aka average dps is higher.
We also single target. Explanation above is what what causes the "strange numbers" your thinking about.
Last edited by Nyarlathotep : 07/30/07 at 5:28 AM.
Reason: typing
Are you using coa, bolting, shadowburning or using some other type of cast order here ?
no point using coa, you have to deliver the most officiant 7k or whatever it is. bolt bolt burn. immo, bolt, conflag. depends on when you crit / what you hit for.
dots kinda useless as you dont have the time for them to run their full course.
On Vashj, I've had good success using Fire spells on the elementals when I was doing that - YMMV, but for me an Immolate plus 2 Incinerates is almost always enough to kill the elemental before it reaches Vashj even with none of them critting, and if you get behind there's always Conflag and Shadowburn. Honestly, I was probably doing better at killing elementals as Destruction than Affliction.
As for trinkets, I haven't had a large selection to choose from, but I can definitely say that TLC is not worth it for a warlock at the SSC/TK gear levels - the crit rate just isn't high enough (when maintaining a close to 16% hit) to make up for it's lack of any other bonuses. Might be somewhat nice if you're, say, a 0/33/28 FR tanking spec (where you're spamming SP a lot), but overall I don't have a very high opinion of it.
The Shadow Priest site is a good comparison guide, since it takes into account the clickable/proc abilities and does calcs for different specs.
Since our critable nuke is a 2.5 cast, TLC really sucks for us (since it takes so long to 'charge' up, the lowest time would be 6.5 seconds). The only use for a Warlock is when they spam Seed of Corruption. The green 26 +damage trinket would work better than TLC, especially since the lighting bolt has a 17% chance to miss.
Sextent is a fair trinket, but Icon is better for Destro.
On a different topic, Affliction locks killing Vashj, make sure you kill the bats on phase 3, it makes a *huge* difference.
Probably more like Eye of mag, nelth's tear and icon of the silver crescent. Before Bt/hyjal anyway. Ahh and the crusade deck on an encounter where its actually useable.
I am seeking advice from all the 0-21-40 locks out there on a certain boss kill, and this seems to be the place to ask. We are currently on Kael, and have Vashj down now, but for that fight I have always run as 41-0-20, for obvious elemental duty reasons. Outside of this fight thou I have recently been running the 0-21-40 shadow mage build and loving it, thou I am concerned with running this build for the Vashj fight. Have any locks with this spec(o-21-40) done elemental duty successfully and if so any tips,pointers or is it just to intense to do? I do not mind respecing thou it would be nice on the wallet if I did not to have too. Thanks in advance for any comments and suggestions.
Actually, even as destro, I would CoA, Immo, and Corruption elementals.
My CoA's do about 4.4k damage at my gear level. Corruption is 3.2k and my immo's are about 2.4k. Which is enough to kill an elemental. But this only works if you dot them as they spawn. If you wait for them to show up on top of the stairs, obviously your dots wont work.
Then for tainted elementals I use, bolt bolt burn.
I am seeking advice from all the 0-21-40 locks out there on a certain boss kill, and this seems to be the place to ask. We are currently on Kael, and have Vashj down now, but for that fight I have always run as 41-0-20, for obvious elemental duty reasons. Outside of this fight thou I have recently been running the 0-21-40 shadow mage build and loving it, thou I am concerned with running this build for the Vashj fight. Have any locks with this spec(o-21-40) done elemental duty successfully and if so any tips,pointers or is it just to intense to do? I do not mind respecing thou it would be nice on the wallet if I did not to have too. Thanks in advance for any comments and suggestions.
I've done the entire east side as destro no problem. The key is you need to have enough +shadow that you can 3 sb all the mobs, and on crit 2 shot. This number is probably around +1400, maybe abit higher, in full buffs(I think without pot/flask/food I was like leaving them at 2%). I suppose 2 sb+CoA would be good too but you lost the possibility of 2 shotting(unless you CoA last.. but I dont think thats a good idea, plus 30 yd range will be a pain) them and getting them in 5 seconds, since you will always be taking 6.5. DoTs maybe kill them in less cast time, but if you fall behind you most certainly cannot catch up with destro dots, in addition to the 30yd range... The only side I would use DoTs on is destro where is north where it is a small zone with lots of spawns, thus the 30yd doesn't hurt that much.
"dots kinda useless as you dont have the time for them to run their full course."
Thats so false, it takes like 25-30 seconds from bottom of the ramp to vashj.
Overall if you are only running 4 elemental killers, I certainly would not go with a destro lock unless they were extremely geared.
Has anyone else experimented with leatherworking drums? On a whim (and because I don't mind going back to 350+ tailoring if it doesn't work out) I swapped professions a few days ago, got to 350 LW in a few hours, and I and an elemental shaman are going to be trying to use these in our raid group.
They seem extremely challenging for casters given the 10 yard requirement (far easier for a melee group, it's frustrating), but a very cheap buff if you can make it work, even on only 1-2 people.
The 80 spell haste seems a better drum than the 30 spell damage in a standard group (2x fire mage/dest lock/ele shm/spriest.)
Any tips, comments, experiences, etc. from others playing around with drums as a caster?
Just to point out, those are far from the best trinkets for a fire mage. Those are the best trinkets for an arcane mage, which has the highest "spells per minute" cast rate of any class, thus making them extremely useful. For a fire mage (and a destruction warlock), both those trinkets are sub-par as you don't actually cast that many spells a minute.
Icon of the Silver Crescent, Magtheridon's Eye, Darkmoon Card : Blessings, Neltharions Tear and Quagmires Eye are all better trinkets.
Just to point out, those are far from the best trinkets for a fire mage. Those are the best trinkets for an arcane mage, which has the highest "spells per minute" cast rate of any class, thus making them extremely useful. For a fire mage (and a destruction warlock), both those trinkets are sub-par as you don't actually cast that many spells a minute.
Icon of the Silver Crescent, Magtheridon's Eye, Darkmoon Card : Blessings, Neltharions Tear and Quagmires Eye are all better trinkets.
Well wont sextant be better then Magtheridon's Eye when you start cap hit rating at 16.9 hit?
Or does the high damage and no internal cool down of the eye still beat the sextant ?
Edited:
I know the the shadow priest site, where the second specc 0/21/40 specc looks to be the one for SB spamming. The specc used in that simulation seams to me to be a bit weird. Why was cataclysm not picked over 10% fire? etc.
07/25/07, 2:20 PM
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