Silverstorm

I disagree, Tricky. If I know that I'm going to be unable to re-cast the DoT when it's out (Shatter-type mechanics that are more than ~2 seconds), I will recast them to give me the most uptime possible during that "no cast" time. Whereas Destro will just say "hmm, guess I can't cast shadowbolts while I'm silenced, but I got that last one off." I don't know of many times yet where the silence period is so long that Affliction should take a hit like that.

Those sub-optimal windows can usually be twisted to a Life Tap or Dark Pact to cover for the extra mana usage due to recasting DoTs early.

Once again, maintaining high DPS is based on knowledge of the fight and the timing of cast-interrupting effects.

 

Trickykid

That's kind of my point. You lose part of the advantage of being affliction when you have to recast before a spell is over -- you make that time spent casting the first dot worth less. At some % of the DoT's duration, you may as well just shadow-bolt instead of reapplying it.

It's not that the silence period is more than a dot's duration, it's that it may happen during the optimal dot-uptime period. If that happens, your cast-time isn't being used to its fullest.

EDIT: I'm not saying you can't overcome these challenges and still maximize your DPS. I'm simply explaining why I think some people see lower actual DPS than the theoretical level.

 

Inahk

Archimonde is notorious for that sort of badly timed forced movement that strips affliction of that advantage. Ive done the fight as both 41/0/20 and 0/21/40 and I find it about the same, although truthfully you cant make any good comparison from one Archimonde attempt to another due to the randomness of doomfire, the amount of forced movement may be completely different from one attempt to another, but the point is; it hurts both specs DPS about equally.

On the other hand, a fight like Al'ar, where your movement is predictable and timed, affliction probably has a slight edge. Although I haven't done that fight as affliction, or have any aff warlock in my guild. I'm mostly speculating on that one.

 

Gorthaur

Purely anecdotal, but from what I can recall my total damage and DPS was higher on Al'ar as 0/21/40 simply because of the predictive movements. Also you can't really DPS Al'ar in meteor form so that leaves small windows to put out high burst, with that time waiting for meteor being the perfect opportunity to life tap.

Honestly, I think the reason that destro specs more accurately reflect theory crafted numbers is simply because it's that much easier to model. I see wild changes reflected in my DoT damage if for example an Imp. SB proc goes up and than there is some movement required of the raid. It means the DoTs take full advantage before my own or some other shadow users abilities uses up the charges.

Incorporating a /stopcasting macro is definitely more intense as an affliction spec than as destro and it's a lot more common to mess up your cycle, lowering your DPS. All that being said, I think the margin between which spec would do the MOST damage is so small it's not really worth agonizing over. If a player can play both types well, just let them play which ever is most enjoyable. Unless of course you are truly min/maxing in which case you really need two affliction warlocks and at least one destruction.

 

scottemad123

while i used to agree with you on al'ar, after getting my gear all sorted out for destro (which im not at the moment due to some no shows this week) as a hit capped destro lock i beat the affliction locks by about 4% overall dmg on Al'ar. Closest affliction lock suprised me, because it wasn't a dps curse lock either. Then again im the only lock in a shadow priests group for the most part, that night i believe there was a lock in the other group too, so i had some variables in my favor. And at least on the ISB debuffs that I throw up or refresh, my mods show them getting chewed up really fast with four locks and two shadowpriests.

 

Gorthaur

I agree, I think with the proper gear destro probably out performs affliction on Al'ar specifically. However, 4% of a spread in damage is pretty large, I don't think we even have a gap that large between the top DPS and the bottom (the true use of a damage meter in my opinion). Do you significantly out gear the other warlocks or were there some other external factors?

 

Inahk

I didn't really consider the dots dropping off in phase 2 meteors.

By the way, you can actually squeeze some dps in when he starts to meteor, I can usually get 2 shadow bolts off before he becomes immune if you stand in the center of the room.

Like I said, I haven't done Al'ar as affliction and there aren't any affliction warlocks in my guild,
but as my usual 0/21/40 I nearly always come 1st on Al'ar. I always have a shadowpriest and an elemental shaman, and sometimes a BM hunter too. :]

 

Alvarius

As an Affliction Warlock (43/0/18), should I pursue the hit cap with gems or should I just keep stacking damage and leave my hit somewhere between 10 and 12%? Lower in favor of damage?

 

Gorthaur

I would pursue the hit cap. I used to have capped hit and virtually the same stats as another affliction warlock in my guild and I would consistently out DPS him given me on a utility curse and him using CoD. His hit was around 11-12% where as I was capped via gear.

I don't know what gear you have access to, but you can get really close to the hit cap without gems with just Kara gear. If you are on utility curse duty your damage should be split roughly 50% DoTs and 50% Shadow Bolts. So lack of +hit is lowering your shadow bolt damage quite a bit. Acquiring +hit via gear allows you to free up some talent points for Malediction, Shadow Embrace or 1/2 Imp. Healthstone so I recommend it.

I'm usually top damage on Al'ar regardless of spec, simply due to the fact that a warlock can go nearly full out through the entire fight with little movement required. The group composition you describe is almost absolutely perfect for a destruction lock so it isn't surprising you are on top. I think the best would be something like Moonkin, Elemental Shaman, Shadow Priest, BM Hunter or some combination there of. To clarify, that's perfect for the destro lock but not necessarily the best for the raid. You might be better off with something like Shadow Priest, Arcane Magex2, Elemental Shaman plus BM hunter or Destro lock.

 

• frmorrison

My opinion is 14.5 % hit is necessary for any Warlock spec (to minimize Soulshatter resists). Some people's opinion's will differ though, in that they say 16% is most important.


Regarding Al'ar, as Affliction I usually cast instant corruption as he is turning into a Meteor. Is Al'ar clearing DoTs up there?

 

scottemad123

I don't really out gear the other locks by much actually, however we do get crap for caster drops so when something good drops it becomes dkp dump for who wants that piece. to put it in perspective, we have been working on kael for i think three weeks now and there is only one lock in our guild with a decent spell damage weapon, and he usually is on the lower end of the meters. rest of us have the honor hold exalted blade or the greatsword. Mainly due to lack of drops and working arena teams slowly.

Could do with some positioning as well. I try to make it so when al'ar changes platforms im standing between the two and don't have to move to continue dps till he moves to the third plat form etc. Trying to maximize my casting time while not having to move if possible.

 

Necailis

Just how much hit is optimal for an affliction lock though?

I currently can swap some pieces around to get anything betwen 12% and 13.4% right now, but i'm just wondering if I should go for the 16% cap (I have 2/5 supression so I ensure my dots are always hit capped)

For example I can either use neltharions tear or icon of the silver crescent, I get a bit more than 1% hit from the tear but does that outweigh the spelldmg on use effect of the icon trinket assuming it only effects my immolate/SB spells?

 

Statious

While I am not Nyaral, I have been raiding demo for awhile (disregard the profile we are on a major Vashj push so until we are comfortable with aggro, I went shadowfury as healers could not watch my felguard even with the Voidstar he was dropping way to fast without assistance).

The felguard is always on passive with pet attack on a bind key. I guess I went old school as I like to take complete control over when he intercepts and cleaves. Generally I have cleave off when he first attacks and then cleave gets turned on auto. One too many times have I lost my pet because a taunt missed on an add and there sat my demon having intercepted and cleaved the mob (also cleave + sheeps not a great combo).

I guess I am a masochist because I like to control every aspect of my demons. Granted I only use my felguard now so its kinda one button for atk and one button for passive so he returns. As of now his dps is good but it can only get better as he scales with us. As others have said the new change will be amazing. There are a lot of times you have to pull him out of a situation and then intercept back as he might be taking a lot of damage and you know he is not a huge healing priority. Between the SP and the T5 bonus I would be comfortable to say 300-350HPS is a good average. Factor in healing from chain heal and CoH and he might just stay in those situations with avoidance and near max resistance.

 

Madlax

I might be just blind or going senile, but don´t we Warlocks have a proper gear/itemization post up somewhere here?(at least i can´t find one via search)
Gearing through Kara + SSC/TK is hard work enough. Gearing through BT/MH without wasting stats points is madness.

 

Alvarius

I did a search, but I didn't come up with anything that sounded like that. If you could provide a link, I'd appreciate it.

 

Roped

I try to maintain at least 13% hit as affliction without any points in suppression. Since I'm using Eye of Magtheridon it still allows me to get a decent amount of procs in there while still making missed spells not a hindrance. I'm currently aiming for at least 13%+ hit from gear alone, and gemming every socket with a red pure damage gem.

 

◊ Kyth

He doesn't take damage from an add dying, I guess I always assumed he wouldn't take damage from dots either. But I'm not sure how you'd be able to check.

 

Faradin

If I remember correctly, Siphon Life is still giving you health back every 3 seconds, so I'd assume they are all still ticking.

 

Brave

Some food for thought I have not seen this posted. Phase 1 Kael when the mobs 'die' DOTs continue to tick, a neat but pointless trick to dominate meters even more badly is fully DOT and COD mobs before they die ;p Nobody should beat you. Last Kael I was probably about 120k above 2nd place. This may give insight to DOT damage on Al'ar, though it may just be a faulter in damage meters.

The ever-over-discussed question, immolate?
Heres my "DrDamage" average breakdown, no debuffs or anything of my spells.
Unstable 2740, Shadow Bolt 1929, Corruption 2824, Siphon 2014, Agony 3217, Immolate 1880

So assuming full debuffs, obviously every shadow spell I have out performs immolate. Its damage efficiency is incredibly low, though it does feel like it fits in nicely with DOT rotations is it really worth it? It can account for up to 10% of my total dmg but would that dmg be better applied to just casting a shadow bolt instead. I am typically on utilty curses as well.

Another question concerning consumables. Destruction Potions... are they really worth it? Over 15 seconds you will maybe cast 8 spells? Or so, doing it at the start of a DOT rotation still only gives you about 800 more dmg... I assume a Super Mana pot would be better not having to life tap and giving you a few extra spells..

I am curious if other warlocks get shafted from the good groups, typically all of us warlocks are thrown into left over groups, the mages get the moonkin shadow priest and shaman, we get.... 3 pallies or something terrible like that. Sometimes dual BM hunters which I don't mind. In the end 2 BM hunters with consistant up time of 6%dmg could be better tho I do like heroism.

I think thats all I have for now ;p enjoy this thread a lot.

 

Mondragon

imo a Super Mana Pot gives you more DPS. Less time lifetapping, more time pew pewing

http://hosted.filefront.com/mrpboy/ - My WoW PVE Movies. SSC/TK/BT

 

Malifik

No, Al'ar does NOT clear dots when going into Meteor. I don't know what the rest of the guys are talking about, how 0/21/40 beats affliction in Al'ar due to dots clearing in phase 2 meteor, when this is simply not the case.

 

Antoine

For your first question: as you see, Immolates' damage is nearly that of Shadow Bolt's but its lower cast time makes it better to cast than SB for you.

As to your second question, I rarely ever get a shadow priest when we're working on a new boss but I've managed to bitch at my raid leader enough that I can usually get a nice group on farm fights.

 

Gorthaur

Al'ar's adds do not do damage to him if they die while he is in meteor form, I think that's the confusion. Kind off topic for this particular thread anyways.

In regards to the Eye of Magtheridon, I never understood the logic behind keeping your +hit artificially low so as to get the thing to proc. What you are basically saying is you want to negate for example a shadow bolt hitting for say 2-3k (depending on build) to get a temporary spell dmg buff, only to then possibly get resisted in the spells you cast while the buff is up? The passive spell damage is nice, but I'd rather just use Darkmoon Card: Crusade and Icon.

 

Melchior

From a pure DPCT standpoint, Immolate is definitely better than Shadow Bolt.

However, there's a few other considerations than just the pure DPCT to look at. Mainly, the fact that Shadow Bolt will benefit more from your crit (since only the initial portion of Immolate gains the crit bonus, compared to the full value of Shadow Bolt), as well as Shadow Bolt being able to generate/refresh an Imp. Shadow Bolt stack.

Another factor - which I think is a rather important issue for Affliction - is that Immolate is yet another GCD-length cast for Affliction, which is already a build greatly affected by it. Even using /stopcasting, the build is so affected by latency compared to a straight-nuke build that adding yet another spell to your casting load just compounds your loss of nuke-filler time over the duration of the fight.

Like I mentioned earlier, I have been having trouble getting any real gains out of including Immolate in my rotation as Affliction, and my latency is generally steady at around ~150ms.

I'm still working on getting enough parses to draw decent conclusions, but in so far my damage has not improved whatsoever adding this to my "rotations", and in a couple instances straight lowered my output.

 

Dethus

This is why i don't like eye of mag. Its essentially a trinket that rewards something that shouldn't be happening anyway. Of course it will happen but if you can get better trinkets then by all means do it.