What percent of your damage is coming from destruction spells? That will answer the question for you: that's how much initial threat ceiling you'll gain (and then you'll gain more after shatter.)
Based on the warlock excel sheet, it looks about 26% which I think is consistent with actual experience.
So does destructive reach would reduce it to 16% effective threat generated? (NM, math above!)
So is affliction. There's this general perception that because you see big numbers with destruction, it's a threat problem. But affliction has just as bad if not worse threat issues -- if only because you can't "turn off" your damage if you miscalculated.
threat = damage. affliction is at least as good as destruction's damage (and I and others would argue it's more in many cases.)
I first started raiding as a rogue and recently moved to a warlock and I have seen a lot of arguments back and forth about this sort of thing.
First, you are absolutly right that threat = damage. Average damage is a useful tool for predicting threat level and making choices about when to soulshatter or back off, however, this is only half the issue. Variance in DPS is a major factor as well.
It is true that with affliction you cannot easily turn off DoT damage, once DoTs are up, they stay up. DoT's, however, have the distinct advantage of not being able to crit. The fact that 60% of your damage comes from abilities that cannot crit means that there is considerably less variance in DPS over a given period of time.
While using destrcution the damage of DoTs takes a backseat to frontloaded skills like SB. With 60% of your DPS coming from abilities that can crit and talents that improve the crit bonus to 200% there is going to be a considerably larger variance in your DPS. Given this fact you have to start dealing with agro issues sooner because you cannot be as certain how much damage your next cycle will produce.
So you're right, destrcution isn't a threat problem simply because you see bigger numbers. However, given the increased variance of destruction's DPS, it is much easier to misscalculate threat generation using that spec.
I'm a tad bit confused. What part of this is a response to my post which you quoted? I was talking about the increased mana return to the shadow priest and, by extension, his group. I think we all know ISB is good for damage, what had not really clicked for me before is that with a shadow priest around ISB is also good for mana.
You are missing the around 10% damage from Immolate.
So (.7-(.7*.9))*.5 = 3.5% less threat overall.
I am not missing much not having any -aggro talents (I am PvP Demo Spec and use FG), since my damage is spread between Affliction and Desto spells.
However, assuming you didn't have Salvation (like in a 5-man) with the same damage types, the talents give slightly more of a benefit of 5% less threat each.
Even if you are DoT capped and cannot use Immolate, either of the talents provide more of a benefit than the Subtely cloak enchant.
There are two kinds of 21/40 destruction; Shadow, and fire.
There are four factors determining their differences;
-Raid composition (do you have shadowpriests? fire mages?)
-Do you have mana to burn? Shadow takes more mana than fire, but shadow damages better straight up.
-Improved Shadow Bolt
-Emberstorm
Shadow uses more mana, however, shadow benefits the raid with Improved Shadow Bolt, which is godlike imo. Shadow dots that tick for it will do 20% more, shadowbolts, mindblasts, etc will do 20% more. (To clarify, periodic shadow damage does 20% more but by the mechanics of the spell does not remove one of the four "charges" of an Imp SB proc). Fire destro does NOT have an equivalent ability. Also, fire destro takes 5 special talent points to make it viable, which shadow does not; you must have 5 points in Emberstorm, where you need no such side points to make shadow do compareable damage.
Outside of a raid, fire benefits, in that it has a lot of fast burst damage. However, grinding shadow is cake for me, too, because I regularly 2 and 3 shot upper level mobs (makes grinding fire elementals yay).
And comparing actual experience; even without a shadow priest, and with a fire mage, compared to a fire spec destro lock in the guild I historically do just under/compareable dps as shadow in those situations. When there's a Shadow priest, I out dps her by far. But => If there's never shadow priests and you have a fire mage, fire may be the better option for you. If you have shadow priests, shadow is win.
In spite of the mana concerns of shadow, it's really not a big deal if you chain mana pots and throw in the occasional timely lifetap/bandage. With less gear than I have now, I've managed an average 927 dps on Magtheridon dpsing for the majority of the fight, not dying or being oom at the end, according to swstats and wws. I wish to run numbers with what I have now (in my boss gear, 834 damage, 140 hit, 18.83% character sheet crit) and see how much I have improved with a few pieces of gear to upgrade me. (Was all excited our last Magtheridon kill, because I could have tested it, but then that snake RESISTED my first soul shatter /cry, and I just sprinkled on dps whilst topped out on the threat chart and cried in my little corner. Weaksauce!)
Another nifty thing is the crits you'll see with shadow, where fire can't match it (I again point to the lack of Imp Shadowbolt). Right now, my highest crits are over 7k and every now and then 8k, and I only have 834+damage for bosses! The shadow multipliers are amazing.
As far as various spell rotations go;
If you're shadow, your base is (I'm assuming you're using a debuff curse and not CoA), Corruption, Immolate, and Shadowbolt. Do not use in a straight up rotation incinerate or conflagrate; conflag isn't worth the global cooldown it consumes for the dps it gives(though I have it anyway for special circumstances and grinding), and examining Bolche's nifty spreadsheet (another) DPS Spreadsheet you will see that using Conflagrate actually lowers your dps for a shadow build.
On the other hand, if you're fire destro, you want to use corruption, immolate, incinerate, and only situationally conflagrate; ie, like you're running to a new position or such and immolate is about up, and you couldn't cast another spell in that time before you're moving, it's a good use of your time. As part of the normal rotation, though, the spreadsheet tell me it hurts your dps just a touch.
With shadow destro, though, in good gear, you'll often find yourself topped out on the threat meters. Salvation is your friend, but sometimes even that isn't enough. Fire is that way too, but since the crits from shadow can be much bigger, you need to be a touch more careful where you are on the threat meter.
Destruction locks FOREVER!
I hope this wall of text helps. =)
One other thing you didn't touch on that bears witness, with 1/21/39 or 0/21/40, you have the ability to stack yourself for going either Shadow or Fire depending on the situation with a couple handy gear swaps here and there (if you're Shadowcloth Tailor, grab something like Boots of Foretelling or Shifting Nightmare, a good robe if you're not in SSC or have Robe of Hateful Echoes, and some good shoulders). This way you can jump between whichever will maximize your DPS (maybe you're on a Kara run and there is no shadow priest along, but there is a fire mage).
I'm Affliction right now, but I'm really pining to go back to destrution...I feel dirty without Ruin since I had it ever since I originally hit 60 (in 1/05)...and our raids don't really have an destruction 'locks at the moment (everyone is either Affliction or Demonology).
Edit: Something I forgot to note, Conflagration is really not a spell you should be using in standard raiding/5 manning. Using Conflagration actually makes you do less DPS no matter if you're a fire or shadow build and you're better off letting Immolate run its course and recast it when it drops (Every DPS spreadsheet I've used have shown Conflagrate to cost you DPS). So for a fire build, I personally would just avoid putting the point into Conflagrate and put it somewhere else as I haven't seen any times outside soloing or PvP where I would actually use it.
Everything you said is true, I just get tired of seeing posts that imply destruction is somehow magically higher "threat" than affliction, when it isn't. So I tend to post.
However I have to say, I've never, in a situation that matters, had an issue with destruction being "spikier". Yeah sure for 5-mans -- but so much varies in 5-mans and talent selection isn't nearly as important there either.
To me the only raiding threat issue is that with dots, I lose that damage on any fight with an aggro reset/dump where I really can't be casting them. Those are few -- alas, for destruction :p.
Well other than the raiding threat issue that it's so easy to catch up to a tank, shatter, and catch up again -- but 2.1 should help with the nerf to our dps, heh.
I will agree that in Kara the tanks feel my threat is higher because I'm spikier. Even though I know I'm putting out the same or slightly lower dps than I did as affliction. I just make soothing noises at them though and tell them not to worry that (a) my math-on-the-fly is good, and (b) soulshatter is bound to my 'tab' key :p.
Edit: Something I forgot to note, Conflagration is really not a spell you should be using in standard raiding/5 manning. Using Conflagration actually makes you do less DPS no matter if you're a fire or shadow build and you're better off letting Immolate run its course and recast it when it drops (Every DPS spreadsheet I've used have shown Conflagrate to cost you DPS). So for a fire build, I personally would just avoid putting the point into Conflagrate and put it somewhere else as I haven't seen any times outside soloing or PvP where I would actually use it.
I agree with most of the rest of your post except for this. Conflag is not worth it for most bosses since, as you say, you are doing less DPS. However, for anything that dies quickly (less than the full duration of Immolate), Conflag can be a big boost in overall damage done. This is especially noticeable during 5-mans (lots of trash that tends to die quickly) and heavy burst DPS situations (adds on Curator). Finally, Conflag is a single point for a situationally handy spell - I see little reason to avoid it in heavy destro builds.
If you're shadow, your base is (I'm assuming you're using a debuff curse and not CoA), Corruption, Immolate, and Shadowbolt. Do not use in a straight up rotation incinerate or conflagrate; conflag isn't worth the global cooldown it consumes for the dps it gives(though I have it anyway for special circumstances and grinding), and examining Bolche's nifty spreadsheet (another) DPS Spreadsheet you will see that using Conflagrate actually lowers your dps for a shadow build.
On the other hand, if you're fire destro, you want to use corruption, immolate, incinerate, and only situationally conflagrate; ie, like you're running to a new position or such and immolate is about up, and you couldn't cast another spell in that time before you're moving, it's a good use of your time. As part of the normal rotation, though, the spreadsheet tell me it hurts your dps just a touch.
With 0/21/40 you want to check the spreadsheets if Corruption is actually worth it, even with a sacrificed Sukkubus. I am 0/21/40 shadow-destruction and already at the point gearwise where using Corruption does not improve my DPS. Things may vary if you go 1/21/39, but I prefer 0/21/40 for reasons stated earlier in this thread.
For fire destruction Corruption most likely is not worth it once you have good gear.
I agree with most of the rest of your post except for this. Conflag is not worth it for most bosses since, as you say, you are doing less DPS. However, for anything that dies quickly (less than the full duration of Immolate), Conflag can be a big boost in overall damage done. This is especially noticeable during 5-mans (lots of trash that tends to die quickly) and heavy burst DPS situations (adds on Curator). Finally, Conflag is a single point for a situationally handy spell - I see little reason to avoid it in heavy destro builds.
I haven't encountered a mob yet that dies quicker than 15 seconds (and the 5 man group I normally run with puts out around 3.5k DPS between myself, a Rogue, a Feral Druid, the tank, with Priest DPSing between heals due to boredom). And yes, from both DPS spreadsheets and from actual use, I've found that Conflag is more detrimental that useful, it wastes both DPS and mana from what I've seen.
And yes, from both DPS spreadsheets and from actual use, I've found that Conflag is more detrimental that useful, it wastes both DPS and mana from what I've seen.
If everything's dead after you hit conflag, it's not a waste of mana because you'll be drinking.
If you have to move for whatever reason after this mob dies, or there's a pause in which you can't cast anyways for some reason (e.g. tank breaking CC and getting initial threat on it), it's not a waste of mana because you can lifetap.
I don't use it often. But it's definitely worth the point IMO. Plus the ability to put on burst when you need to.
If everything's dead after you hit conflag, it's not a waste of mana because you'll be drinking.
If you have to move for whatever reason after this mob dies, or there's a pause in which you can't cast anyways for some reason (e.g. tank breaking CC and getting initial threat on it), it's not a waste of mana because you can lifetap.
I don't use it often. But it's definitely worth the point IMO. Plus the ability to put on burst when you need to.
The thing is, the mobs I tend to fight have around 25k to 30k life. I don't go into non-heroics unless I'm after either a tailoring pattern, enchanting formula, or to help a guildie/alliance member gear up. The vast majority of mobs in Heroics die in around 15 to 18 seconds, so the Immolate ticking off at the end is more than enough. As I said initially, I personally don't see a good reason to go with Conflag as I can use that talent point elsewhere in something that I will use all the time versus something I will use very situationally.
Like Kyth said, Conflag is only one point, and while it is not a stable dps spell it is useful.
Have you ever pulled aggro on a heroic trash mob and wanted to burst it down before it comes to kill you? Conflag plus shadowburn is around 2k damage non-crit in 1.5 seconds and if that is not enough you can Deathcoil as well.
In PvP it is very useful, and if you mainly PvE, you can get the 12 damage gem at a low price of only 8.8k honor (but you can only have one on your equipped gear), and a 6 damage 6 crit gem yellow gem at 10k honor.
Like Kyth said, Conflag is only one point, and while it is not a stable dps spell it is useful.
It's a point that I can use elsewhere though. I rather have a point in something that is going to be helping me most of the time than only some of the time, that's my personal preference.
Have you ever pulled aggro on a heroic trash mob and wanted to burst it down before it comes to kill you? Conflag plus shadowburn is around 2k damage non-crit in 1.5 seconds and if that is not enough you can Deathcoil as well.
Usually just bursting down the mob gets me killed, instead I soul shatter since I pay close attention to my threat in heroics. Trying to burst down the mob is typically more trouble than it's worth I've seen.
I also tend to keep my deathcoil for times when I need to get a mob off the healer to give the tank a little breathing room to get it back undercontrol as healer aggro tends to be right up there with the tank's aggro in heroics until the tank becomes very well geared (I would say 80% of the time, the person that pulls aggro in our group is the healer from healing the tank not from the DPSers putting out more threat than the tank).
In PvP it is very useful, and if you mainly PvE, you can get the 12 damage gem at a low price of only 8.8k honor (but you can only have one on your equipped gear), and a 6 damage 6 crit gem yellow gem at 10k honor.
I know it's useful in PvP where burst damage is king, but I also rarely PvP with this character.
Use Debuff Filter to judge whether dotting is worthwhile where other warlocks and spriests are cramping your style. If you're at 37+, you may be better off bolting more. If you aren't breaking 30, dot up that mug. http://wow-en.curse-gaming.com/downl...debuff-filter/
How do you get dfilter to show the # of debuffs up? Played with it a bit the other day, but other than filtering what I do and don't want shown, don't see it.
I do exclusively heroics too -- maybe I just run with a higher dps group, but immolate rarely lasts its duration.
I too use conflag to burst down mobs that I pull aggro on in heroics. My experience generally is if no one is pulling aggro, you're probably moving too slowly. There's actually tons of breathing room to pull aggro, and if you're running with, say, a rogue or a frost mage, you have even more due to easy snares.
We also often "crowd control" by burning a lower-HP mob down on inc, or aggro-kiting with frostshock, a shiv'd cripple, etc.
I'm more willing to pull aggro to kill a mob fast when I know immo is up, conflag is hot, and shadowburn is hot. Heck I even have deathcoil as an instant-cast damage spell if I haven't used it already .
Everything you said is true, I just get tired of seeing posts that imply destruction is somehow magically higher "threat" than affliction, when it isn't. So I tend to post.
I would never attempt to imply such a misconception. Unfortunately, though, I HAVE seen certain noobs have problems giving themselves enough leeway, throw off a big crit and pull aggro... (Exceedingly frustrating in an otherwise well-oiled Mag fight when an add goes tearing across the room after a careless destro... -.-) It has it's own threat generation tweaks to watch for, like any dps spec.
Again, after such discussion over Conflag, I point to again to situations such as, you're moving and you can't cast any other spell and your Immolate is about to go? Use Conflag, you've no better use for the global cooldown at the moment. (Of course, that also depends on the length of the fight and mana efficiency for you at the time.) It's situational, but it can be used to do little buffs to your damage here and there. Adapting to and taking advantage of any situation (of your positioning, procs, state of your dots, etc) is what, imo, defines good gameplay. =)
I don't use it often. But it's definitely worth the point IMO. Plus the ability to put on burst when you need to.
/agree
With 0/21/40 you want to check the spreadsheets if Corruption is actually worth it, even with a sacrificed Sukkubus. I am 0/21/40 shadow-destruction and already at the point gearwise where using Corruption does not improve my DPS. Things may vary if you go 1/21/39, but I prefer 0/21/40 for reasons stated earlier in this thread.
For shadow destro, I plugged in 1300 +damage in fire and shadow, 28% crit, 11.5% spell hit, and it still adds a bit to dps. It is true that after a point, it is no longer worth it and adds to dps, however, that point takes some time to get to, a point at which few to none have reached at this time. It is good to be aware of it, but I doubt for a new destro it will be worth being concerned over quite yet.
However, I did check for the fire build; even with only 800 +damage, it is NOT worth it to cast corruption, you are correct. =)
I'm more willing to pull aggro to kill a mob fast when I know immo is up, conflag is hot, and shadowburn is hot. Heck I even have deathcoil as an instant-cast damage spell if I haven't used it already
Hehe I may be familiar with such scenarios.
One other thing you didn't touch on that bears witness, with 1/21/39 or 0/21/40, you have the ability to stack yourself for going either Shadow or Fire depending on the situation with a couple handy gear swaps here and there (if you're Shadowcloth Tailor, grab something like Boots of Foretelling or Shifting Nightmare, a good robe if you're not in SSC or have Robe of Hateful Echoes, and some good shoulders). This way you can jump between whichever will maximize your DPS (maybe you're on a Kara run and there is no shadow priest along, but there is a fire mage).
I did touch on this, actually. To make fire the best it can be, you need 5 points in Emberstorm. If you choose to go shadow, you have the alternative of putting points into a mix more points in places such as Backlash, Nether Protection, Soul Leech, etc. You can alter it up as you see fit, but my personal preference is picking up more utility points. I rarely run in situations where fire is most viable, but they do exist. I think it varies per person; what do you most often do, who do you most often run with? I almost always have a shadow priest around, so, speccing for fire when I won't use it more than 1 in 100 isn't as worth it to me; but that might be differnet for others. I have done it, but only, like, once, for a Karazhan. (One warlock, one fire mage; CoE between the two of us made up for the loss in my personal dps). So it does warrant some consideration.
It's a point that I can use elsewhere though. I rather have a point in something that is going to be helping me most of the time than only some of the time, that's my personal preference.
Where else in this build can 1 point go that greatly outweighs conflag? An extra point in imp HS? Improved Imp? I personally use Conflag enough to make it worth it for me, even as a shadow destro, but...
This is also something to consider, though, to decide one way or another;
I know it's useful in PvP where burst damage is king, but I also rarely PvP with this character.
But, I rarely pvp either... I just grind mobs a lot. I find it handy, and I make use of it situationally when I can. If you'd never use it and not miss it, though, then I see nothing wrong with not getting it. =o I just didn't make the same choice.
On a similar subject (but not exactly the same... i apologize), as you can see, my main is a resto chaman, but i've also a lock that is approaching 70 to be used as a farmer and DPS alternative to do something different from time to time.
So its use won't be maximising raid DPS on 10 min long fights, but 5-men, farming, maybe Kara and some PVP.
I've leveled it as a demo lock, thinking that at low gear level, the loss in personnal DPS is lower, and the FG DPS is more gear-independant.
I'm quite satisfied with it, and i'm thinking at staying demo-specced. Affliction appeal to me, but i think that regarding what i want to do with the lock, it's not the right spec.
So what i'd like to know is if you have any experience regarding differences Destro and démo?
I see in the the warlock DPS sheet that felgard is roughly 200-250 DPS. What would be the lock personnal DPS différence between 0/21/40 and a 6/44/11? Is the sheet value for the felgard accurate?
I have the feeling that at low gear (say 600-700 +damage), the DPS difference won't be really significant betwenn these two spec, and the utility of démo is quite better.
At what gear level would you say demo is outdistanced, if any?
regarding precise spec, do you see any adjustments to something like this: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=IV0oZbxczIizzestxx0z
that would improve the build for what i want? (any experience regarding the points needed in mana feed would be particulary helpfull).
Thanks in advance (these are certainly noob questions, but 98% of locks discussions are about afli and destro, and i'm wondering if this is cause demo spec is that weak, or if i'm missing something...)
I am Demo for PvP reasons, but it works fine with grinding.
6/44/11 is a fine spec, 1 point in mana feed is fine for grinding. However, my FG is only 160 dps (without buffs other than talents) with 1000+ shadow damage (FG gets 57% of your +damage added to his attack power). In raids with all those buffs he gets up to 225 dps.
You will never reach the gear level that Destro would out-pace Demo for grinding/occuational dps in a dungeon.
For a build, you could drop Shadowburn for one more in Life Tap for efficiency, everything else is fine. Shadowburn is very inefficient, but great in PvP and when you want to burst something down.
I'm currently 0/21/40, using incinerate, and according to a few hundred thousand simulator runs, I've found that (below the hitcap) 1 spell hit rating is worth about 1.77 spell damage for relatively long-term dps (i.e. non-burst), not even accounting for resists on important utility spells like banish and soul shatter.
In contrast, 1 spell crit rating is only worth 0.70 spell damage; therefore hit >>> crit up to the hit cap. Unfortunately, the best gems currently available for matching red and yellow slots are Runed Living Rubies (9 spell damage) and Potent Noble Topazes (~7.8 spell damage), respectively. Once 2.1 hits with the new +spellhit cuts, the best gems will change to Veiled Noble Topazes (~12.08 spell damage) and Great Dawnstones (~14.16 spell damage) respectively. This will be a huge boost to destruction gear, in addition to all the raid-loot buffs going into the patch as well. After 2.1, I'll be hitcapped with a Totem of Wrath, something previously incredibly difficult because there are no destruction +hit talents.
Can someone confirm these numbers assocated with each gem cut? Assuming they're true, I'm about to socket all my slots with +8hit gems instead of +9dmg.
Ahh, lost my long message. Short version cause im lazy. Plus, you dont have to read as much:
Recap:
1) use a dot timer mod
2) use a mod/macro to cut lag out of your sb casts *
Suggestions:
1) use 2 trinkets, macro them to spells. Use them to refresh dots.
2) when in doubt, spam shadowbolt. Dot in between SB turret sessions.
Now, the big points have been covered.
Immolate. Now, this isnt going to make or break a warlocks dps, at least when I use it. For a long long time immolate wasnt used because MC/BWL were generaly fire immune. I have been meaning to do the math, but have not. I do not use immolate when I am going for max dps. I am wondering if I should.
Do you use Immolate as a shadow spec warlock?
Edit:
* I use a macro thats very, very simple.
/stopcasting
/cast shadowbolt rank 12
This effectively does the samething as a complicated mod, but with out error protection. With this mod, you can reduce the effect of lag. Do you know how you can start moving before a spell stops casting, yet still goes off due to lag? If you "recast" shadowbolt in that window of lag, you can start casting a new bolt before the last one goes off.
Haven't really been using any mods or macro's like this to increase my dps, but i wanted to try this to see how much it would help. But when i copy paste this macro it doesn't really seem to do anything except stop casting when i'm casting another spell. So i guess there must be a typo somewhere in this macro, anybody who could post the correct macro ?
Should do the trick. If it doesn't, you just have to write it exactly as it reads in spellbook mouseover tooltip. Shadow Bolt (Rank 11) if I recall correctly?
Ok, my current problem DPS wise is that I can't seem to break 566DPS when I'm the CoE/CoS bitch. I've got 1010 +dmg at the moment (That rat Bastard Prince has dropped the rogue dagger a half million times and we only raid with a sword rogue. Even our priests have Malchazeen now).
I do have 4/5 Suppression and 54 hit rating and I think that may be a huge part of my problem. I was thinking of re-gemming some of my gear to max +hit but I was wondering what the best way to do that would be. Should I take into account the 8% from Suppression and the 5% from gear or just the 5% from gear?
My dot rotation is flawless and I get quite a bit of shadowbolts up in between, but I just can't seem to break the 600 DPS barrier without CoA or CoD on Hydross even when I'm popping my trinkets every time they're up.
Edit: It also doesn't help that half my frozen shadowweave and my battlecast are gemmed with +12 stam, until recently my schedule wasn't open for raiding and I was full time PVP, I can't re-gem all of my set until I get gladiators replacements as I still have a 5v5 commitment that is turning out with quite a high win:loss ratio now that we've re-structured our team.
05/21/07, 2:29 PM
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