Eh. At kara / gruul / mag level gear ~10% or so is right around what a hit capped (no supression) affliction lock will have - unless they have some poorly itemized left over non crafted / non raid items.
Yeah, I failed to realize that some people only put 10-11 points in destruction. I really don't understand why you'd raid with a build like that, but I guess people do.
You can look at my profile if you want, I only have 11% crit on my paperdoll, but that's because it doesn't show the crit from devastation. I pretty much avoid items that waste stat allocation on crit wherever I can. My crit has actually gone down since I was at the kara / gruul / mag gear level.
Why would you avoid crit as affliction? More than 50% of your dps should still come from shadowbolt. And if you're already hit capped there are very little to no items that have just damage and no other stat at all.
Why would you avoid crit as affliction? More than 50% of your dps should still come from shadowbolt. And if you're already hit capped there are very little to no items that have just damage and no other stat at all.
I don't avoid it to exclusion (if you look at my gear), I just avoid it when I can get a better itemized piece to fill the slot. If I can get more spell damage instead of some crit, I do it. If I can get hit instead of crit, and then trade off another slot to drop hit for damage, I do it. As an affliction warlock crit and haste aren't worthless, they're just way, way overpriced.
With 2.2 tomorrow, I felt an in depth analysis of 4 piece tier 5 was in order (referred to as 4x5 below). Based on previous posts in this thread, the new 10% bonus stacks multiplicatively. Below is my analysis of how it's going to play out, with assumptions at the top and TLDR summary at the bottom.
Assumptions:
4x tier 5
A 600 damage corruption tick
Bane
100 ms lag
Standing at range such that there is 2.0 seconds of travel time + lag for shadow bolt to reach the target and for the corruption stack to be modified
1.) Is this a valid rotation?
Total mana spent per cycle: corruption, 6x sbolt 370 + 6x420 = 2890 mana spent over 19.4 seconds. Assuming life tap of 1876, need to get 1014 mana in 19.4 seconds. Shadow priest gives at least 582, leaving 432 from mp5. Blessing of wisdom is 41 mp5 or 159. Mana spring totem is 116.4. This leaves a 156.6 mana per cycle defecit which can easily be accomodated by movement (free lifetap) and mana pool.
1a.) Yes, this is a sustainable rotation.
2.) How much dps is the 4x5 bonus adding with this rotation?
Damage added from t5 proc per shadowbolt:
First shadowbolt adds 60 across 5 ticks, or 300 damage
Second shadowbolt adds 66 damage across 4 ticks, or 266 damage
Third shadowbolt adds 72.6 damage across 3 ticks, or 217.8 damage
Fourth shadowbolt adds 79.86 damage across 2 ticks, or 159.72 damage
Fifth shadowbolt adds 87.6 damage across 2 ticks, or 175.2 damage
Sixth shadowbolt adds 96.6 damage across 1 tick, or 96.6 damage
2a.) Total damage added over 19.4 seconds with a 600 damage corruption tick: 1215.32 or 62.64 dps. This represents a bonus of approximately 87 spell damage.
3.) Is immolate worth working into the rotation? How much dps is lost by any given shadowbolt being removed from the rotation? (Yes I know this is charging immolate 2.5 seconds instead of 1.5).
Removing a shadowbolt from the rotation costs a sum of (the total damage it would have added over the remaining course of the corrption) and (the total damage this shadowbolt added to later shadowbolts by starting them off at a higher multiplier). Lets summarize the shift cost, i.e. how much damage THIS shadowbolt loses by starting on a one lower multiplier. The cumulative value is recorded for ease since dropping the 2nd shadowbolt removes the 2nd shadowbolt damage PLUS the shift cost of the 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th shadowbolts.
Shift cost (cost to this shadowbolt's damage buff if shifted to a one lower multiplier):
1st --
2nd 24 (82.8 cumulative)
3rd 19.8 (58.8 cumulative)
4th 14.52 (39.0 cumulative)
5th 15.48 (24.48 cumulative)
6th 9
Based on the combination of this shift cost with the total damage added that was determined in Q2:
Dropping only the first shadowbolt removes 19.73 dps
Dropping only the second shadowbolt removes 16.74 dps
Dropping only the third shadowbolt removes 13.24 dps
Dropping only the fourth shadowbolt removes 9.48 dps
Dropping only the fifth shadowbolt removes 9.49 dps
Dropping only the sixth shadowbolt removes 4.98 dps
Now we know a worst case example of what we are giving up. Now, what are we gaining?
According to the warlock dps spreadsheet, with my current spec and gear, adding immolate to my rotation adds 31.36 dps. This is a no-brainer!
3a.) Even a worst case scenario of immolate cancelling the first shadowbolt, and also not giving later shadowbolts the benefit of shifting 1 second sooner (1.5s cast of immo), nets a gain of 11.63 dps over a no-immo rotation. I was hoping this test would put the nail in the coffin on immo, but alas. It seems immolate is the turd that won't flush for warlock spell rotation. It's still in.
4.) How to fit immo into the rotation? What does this do to 4x5 dps?
The only math I havn't done is whether it would be preferable to replace shadowbolt #6 with an immolate. The benefits would be two-fold. First, it would give you a consistent spell rotation that includes immolate while sacrificing only the weakest shadowbolt; second, cutting a second off the cast cycle at the end puts the corruption re-application at around 18.4 seconds (2.0 in the original cast order is time0). This is a seamless rotation that should never clip the last corruption tick, while cutting a full second of corruption downtime off the rotation listed above.
The downside? A guaranteed 3.4 seconds of immolate downtime per 18.4 second rotation.
I'm going to experiment with this rotation in 2.2: [corruption, sboltx5, immolate, lifetap]=18.4 seconds (17.5 seconds plus 100ms lag)
This would allow CoD + 3x[rotation] + 4.8 seconds of lag/movement per minute without any CoD downtime. Hrm...looks like it's time for some Dr. Boom.
4a.) Tightening up the spell rotation means that turning sb #6 into immo takes 4x5 from 1215.32 over 19.4 seconds (62.64 dps) to 1118.72 over 18.4 seconds (60.8 dps). So for the cost of 1.84 dps, immo is back in the rotation, albeit with 3.4 seconds of downtime.
5.) What math remains?
I feel like the only area I've neglected is a comparison of whether it's worth prioritizing immolate with no downtime, no matter what it does to your tier 5 multiplier.
Conclusions:
1.) If you cast immolate before you got 4x5, you should continue to cast it
2.) With a [corr, 5xsb, immo, LT] rotation, 4x5 is equivalent to approximately 85 spell damage.
3.) Despite the feeling that later sbolts multiply your corruption more, it's the earlier sbolts that do the heavy lifting, simply due to the increased number of ticks they multiply. The first shadowbolt does nearly four times as much bonus damage via 4x5 as the sixth shadowbolt would.
4.) The last shadowbolt only adds 5 dps via 4x5. Depending on the cost of immolate downtime, it could be worth it to simply replace the 6th sb in the rotation with an immo. This trades maximum 4x5 dps, a tighter corr rotation (18.4 vs 19.4), and a repeatable/predictable cast order for significant immolate downtime (3.4 seconds every 18.4, or 18.5% immo downtime)
Last edited by Chronitia : 09/24/07 at 3:44 PM.
Challenge every assumption, test every possibility, and never trust your gut. The most deadly combatants are borne of a scholar's relentless pursuit of truth.
Thanks for busting out the math on that Chronitia. I had been hoping to drop immolate from my casting rotation with the tier five changes and still might because of the increased chances of losing an MSD proc to what could be a shadow bolt (already I stand that chance with corruption at a 1.6 second cast time).
But, without even doing the math on it I'm guessing it's better to keep immolate in the rotation even with MSD (assuming no modification of the rotation to take advantage of procs).
Nice calculations, however you're assuming you have a shadow priest, a shaman in the group and a 3rd paladin in raid. I don't know how many raids are that nice to their warlocks.
Prepare to lose a lot more dps due to life tap.
You also assume a lot of other things, like you're not using CoA,SL and UA, which all are better dps but will reduce the T5 bonus effectiveness by a lot.
(And realistically, when you enter BT/Hyjal you'll start replacing T5 for better gear, of course. The only reason to keep T5 is if you're demo and need the 2 part bonus.)
And realistically, when you enter BT/Hyjal you'll start replacing T5 for better gear, of course. The only reason to keep T5 is if you're demo and need the 2 part bonus.)
Nah, I don't think this is true at all.
Piece for piece, T6 is better gear. But how many pieces of T6 do you need to overcome the benefit a 4PC T5 grants a demo Warlock like myself, or a destruction Warlock? If you're in 5/5 T5, it certainly gives you some options, but I won't see robes off Kael'thas. I don't have SL, or UA to keep up. I'm almost always on CoS or CoE duty, as we rarely raid Hyjal or BT with more than 2 Warlocks. That said, with only Immolate and Corruption to keep up, I can't see how breaking up my 4 pieces of T5 for marginally better stats makes any sense. One or even two pieces of T6 won't be a better DPS option for me. Maybe the magic number is 3. I donno. Either way, I'm considering passing on T6 for a while, and going for upgrades in other areas like cloak, boots, and a new neck.
This is what I'm weaing right now.
T5 (Helm, Shoulder, Gloves, Legs)
T4 (Robe)
When are the stats from T6 better on a 1v1 ratio with T5 as to warrant my breaking up that 4PC? Remember that I'm not Affliction, and I don't have to re-apply CoA. I'm only keeping up Immolate, Corruption and Shadowbolt spamming. Nuking accounts for a much larger portion of my DPS than I get from DOTs ticking.
Have anyone tested the T5 4 set bonus on the PTR or is it simply theoreticly calculated?
I dont have the data from when I tested it, but I am pretty sure that on both live and PTR the bonus is only applied to the base damage of corruption and not the full tick.
If it only applied to base damage, then currently the first shadowbolt would add 3 damage per tick. Tonight with 2.2, it would add a whopping 10 damage per tick. There's no way it only is base damage. Also, earlier in this thread I questioned whether it still stacked after the buff, and a few people went on PTR and confirmed it.
Also yes, I was not basing this math on an affliction rotation. However as you can see, the most dps is added by the first 2 or 3 shadowabolts, so you might want to wait for a bolt or two to refresh other dots. While immolate wasn't toppled by this set bonus, perhaps siphon life could be. You are free to repeat my math with your own stats and rotation.
Edit: And yes, I usually have an ele shammy, shadow priest, and 4 pallies in my raid. I guess I'm spoiled! Either way, any movement is free lifetap time, so I'm not too worried about that.
Challenge every assumption, test every possibility, and never trust your gut. The most deadly combatants are borne of a scholar's relentless pursuit of truth.
So what are you guys replacing your Relentless Earthstorm Diamonds with? Regemming for MSD or getting the Spirit Shard Meta?
I don't have the gear to be hit capped without the use of hit gems, so I think i'm going to wait a bit to see if the meta gets hotfixed (lets face it, 3% to specials only seems a bit too much on the crappy side) - if not then probably spirit shards for now, maybe even go back to using spellstrike over T5 helm, sigh.
Have anyone tested the T5 4 set bonus on the PTR or is it simply theoreticly calculated?
I dont have the data from when I tested it, but I am pretty sure that on both live and PTR the bonus is only applied to the base damage of corruption and not the full tick.
The post above is using theory, and many people tested T5 4 piece.
All I know from my PTR testing was it applied after my +damage/talents, so my first tic of corruption was around 400, and the last tic was around 600. I don't know if other buffs apply, but they should.
The post above is using theory, and many people tested T5 4 piece.
All I know from my PTR testing was it applied after my +damage/talents, so my first tic of corruption was around 400, and the last tic was around 600. I don't know if other buffs apply, but they should.
I tested the bonus on live 2.2 last night and the bonus is ONLY multiplying base damage. I would like to think this is a bug.
I'm searching for a WWS that has me with the set bonus in 2.1 to compare whether the 3% was of total damage or base damage. I will update this shortly.
Edit: Here are some numbers from a recent WWS in 2.1:
This is with SL, MD, SW, misery, a 1.33 multiplier. So the increase of 7/1.33 = 5.26. So even then, it was adding a whopping 3% of corruption's BASE damage. And now it's adding 10% of corruption's BASE damage. How did nobody testing this on the PTR notice that it was adding 1/3rd the bonus you'd expect? Or did it change to 10% of full damage and get nerfed/re-broken on live servers? This is very disappointing.
frmorrison, are you sure the 600 vs 400 wasn't due to one of the sbolts criting an ISB?
Last edited by Chronitia : 09/26/07 at 11:08 AM.
Challenge every assumption, test every possibility, and never trust your gut. The most deadly combatants are borne of a scholar's relentless pursuit of truth.
So what are you guys replacing your Relentless Earthstorm Diamonds with? Regemming for MSD or getting the Spirit Shard Meta?
In my current state in order for me to gain MSD and T5 4 peice it would require a loss of about 5-10 +dmg and a whopping 3.5% Hit.
But the question is the gain of MSD and T5 4 peice a worthy trade off for my loss. I'm not sure yet however one thing is for sure there are various other items in TK/SSC that I do not have yet that would fill the gap for the lost hit from Spellstrike hood / Mag Gloves to Corruptor's Helm and Gloves.
Also the question arises would it be better to socket all gear with 9+ dmg gems and 1 blue gem (obviously this 1 blue gem would go into T5 Helm) or do a mix of gems for example going 3 blue gems (T5 Helm, T5 Legs, PvP Bracers or belt) and going 2 hit gems in T5 Shoulders. Even if I did the later for more +hit I'm still at something like 12.3% hit.
I'm using a combination of glowing nightseye and great dawnstone to keep my hit rating up with the MSD. It also lets me keep some of the better socket bonuses on my gear (tier 5 shoulders and belt of blasting).
Eventually I'd like to regem most stuff with straight spell damage gems but I'll need gear out of BT/Hyjal to pull that off without killing my hit rating.
As far as the tier 5 set bonus. I'm at Dr. Boom now and about to run some tests. I'll edit this post once I have some results.
*edit*
Alright, ran some tests on Dr. Boom making sure no ISB was factored into the calculations. The table breaks down (Shadow Damage), (Curse of Shadows), (Shadow Embrace - Succubus), and (Shadow Embrace + Curse of Shadows). The first table uses 431 Shadow Damage for the calculations and the second uses 1174. The first number listed is the base tic of corruption, the second is the highest tic after one shadow bolt has been applied, the third is the gain.
So it looks like the +10% damage is factored in before spell damage but is affected by other affects that increase damage by a percent rather they're applied to the mob as a debuff or a buff on the player. Not sure if Shadow Mastery will affect this or not, it does have a history of not applying to everything it probably should such as Curse of Doom.
The test was ran using a 1/43/17 build and no pet was active during any testing aside from the sacrifice buffs. I'll retest with Soul Link + Felguard at 1297 before I leave Area 52 but won't post any results unless something odd shows up (such as Soul Link and MD not producing a similar gain to the gain that Curse of Shadows produced).
Any updates on Felguard in 2.2? I heard buffs double stack for the pet and I wanted to know if anyone was Felguard pre-2.2 and is still FG with 2 Tier 5, and how they liked the change.
Any updates on Felguard in 2.2? I heard buffs double stack for the pet and I wanted to know if anyone was Felguard pre-2.2 and is still FG with 2 Tier 5, and how they liked the change.
Not sure that I follow the buffs double stacking question. If you're referring to the pet gaining stamina off my fort buff and then gaining again off it's own I'm not sure. I haven't noticed any substantial stat changes on him but I honestly haven't looked for one.
As far as the 2 piece tier five I like the change, keeping him up on Morogrim has become a piece of cake with the aoe, though I still catch myself lifetapping when I don't need to to try to get some healing passed off to the pet. It's also made grinding a lot easier. I was pretty spoiled last night though and had a sp in my party for most of the raid.
I did lose him once on Lurker but that was due to me being caught by a spout and him dying to soul link damage. The same spout caught the shadow priest. With just the 2 piece bonus I was able to keep him up through whirl damage no problem and that was an unbuffed pet (had to resummon after losing him the first time).
so Relentless Earthstorm Diamonds doesnt work anymore? Poop
It is not working correctly at the moment, the change wasn't intended. It looks like it will be hot-fixable and we're currently in the process of working on one.
So if you like your RED, I would keep it a few more days to see how the works then.
Been trying to raid with Demonology, any advice on keeping felguard up on Lurker Below, it kept taking way to much damage from whirls to be kept alive.
Some more info, he took 14k damage in one minute, and on both tries (patch day don't ask, entire raid was frozen at hydross for 15 minutes before server crashed), he dies really quick way before first dive, am I imagining things or he is getting more dmaage than he should? Thoothun - WWS
Whirl doesn't affect pets. He must have been getting hit by cleave, just make sure to position your fg correctly.
Whirl defiantly hits a Felguard. Spout does not hit pets if that is what you are refering to.
A few things you need to do to keep you Felguard up on Lurker...
1. Set his stay point on the outside of the inner ring. Set up a /pet passive and a /pet attack macro. Use Deadly Boss Mod or some other timer mod and /pet passive the felguard out of Whirl range a few seconds before the timer is up.... then send him back in after.
2. Geyser (3238-3762 Targeted AE Frost damage) will not target pets... but will target players. Set up your Felguard so he is not near other players, so he does not get hit by Geyser. The more players he is near, the greater the chance is of geting hit by Geyser.
3. Group with a Shadow Priest and have them use VE to heal the Felguard of any random damage he might take.
4. 2/5 Tier! We did Lurker last night, my 2 set bonus healed my Felguard for 43k. Granted most of that was overhealing, but he was constantly getting healed so I never had to stop dpsing to health funnel or reposition him or whatever. I actually just left him in during Whirl and healed it back up vie 2/5 Tier 5.
09/23/07, 10:55 PM
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