Demonpyro

I dont understand what im missing, i should be 1st or 2nd on the damage meters for a 25 man...not 5th or 6th. Our guild is currently in the beginnings of ssc/tk with kara and gruul on farm. Im 43/1/17 and dot rotation im using UA, IMM, corrupt, CoA, and siphon. i keep a dot timer mod up and refresh them as soon as they expire. I am casting shadowbolts in the down time and self/pet tapping periodically to try not to get to zero mana. My armory is misleading because i logged out in brewfest gear lol but my pertinent stats are:

909 shadow damage
174 spell hit(2pts in suppression as well)
13% crit

Any advice would be much appreciated.

 

Humanwarlock

Normal forum lurker here, wanted to thank everyone for the work your doing. Its a big help.

On to my question, has anyone ever tried out 30/21/10? Succ sac, keep up immolate, corruption, siphon life, curse of doom, and spam shadowbolts. I tested it out in the spreadsheet, but i'm not believing the numbers its putting out. I think im overlooking somthing somewhere.

 

shed

I had a RED meta and after 2.2 i was rather poor and also didn't want to deal with MSD's requirements of blues and almost no yellows, so I decided to get the free meta from spirit shards vendor (dmg/movement speed) and that would let me do oranges/yellows for this test build I had.

Looking forward to that new meta, too bad it won't be out soon.

 

Arelenda

I'm going to try and attempt to summarize the vast wealth of information going around.


Warlocks have many great talents, and there is lots of wiggle room. Consequently, there are many viable hybrid builds. To keep this rough guide short, I'll focus on the three main tiers.




[Warlock] How do you do dps - affliction style - Unstable Affliction (41/0/20)


Affliction is all about dots. Typical demon choice for this style is imp.

Even though your crit chance is lower than destro, you'll want to have improved shadow bolt in most situations.




How to play:

- You never want to lose a single tic of unstable mutation, corruption or agony. When all your dots are up you will be using that time to throw Shadow Bolts or Dark Pact/Life tap.

- You probably want to use an addon like dotimer. Since your dots are your strong side, making sure they're all up is top priority. There is no fixed rotation since your dots are on

- Malediction is beneficial, adding 2.7% shadow damage to the raid over the untalented CoS.

- Get your imp buffed, blessing of wisdom helps a lot for his mana regeneration, which you can siphon off with dark pact.



Strong and weak points

- More mana efficient and self sufficient than other trees.
- Bloodpact can be nice to boost hit points, especially on fights where a tank can get flattened fast, or where there is lots of aoe damage on the raid.
- Ideal in situations when two or more mobs are being tanked, as you can dot them all.

- This spec provides less burst damage, and scales worse with gear than other specs.


How to gear

Spell hit > Spell damage > Spell haste & Crit

Most warlocks use Suppresion to reach the hit cap, and spec out of it when they obtain more +hit on their gear.






[Warlock] How do you do dps - demonology - Felguard (0/41/20)


Demonology in raids is about making best use of your top tier Demonology talents. The strength of these can make up for the lackluster mid tier Demonology ones.

Demonologists get a boost to spell power, get a 5% damage bonus due to soul link, and get +5% to crit with spells. It is vital their pet stays alive, though. A Demonologist without a pet is very ineffective.



How to play:

- Key is to keep your Felguard alive. Micro managing your pet is vital, since him dying means losing a lot of dps.

- Spell rotations are similar to affliction, with a higher accent on (improved) Shadow Bolts.

- Remember to have your pet attack from the back. Melee attacks from the front can be parried, which can cause an instant counterattack.

- Ask for buffs on your pet. His stamina and intellect will boost your attack power, and it'll allow him to stay alive longer.


Strong and weak points

- Demonology relies on having the Felguard out, so the effectiveness varies a lot. Some fights are brutal towards pets. Micromanaging your felguard is vital.
- A very versatile spec due to the demons each having different effects on you.
- Can be used to offtank in specific encounters (Leotheras being a prime example)
- Demonology is probably the least gear dependent of all three specs. Exception is the tier 5 set bonus heals your pet for massive amounts. Before obtaining that, demonology is likely to perform less well than the alternatives due to the extra healing required on the pet. Shadow Priests in your group will obviously help a lot.




How to gear

Spell hit > Spell Haste > Spell damage > Spell Crit

Tier 5 two part bonus is very useful for this spec.





[Warlock] How do you do dps - raid build destruction - Shadow and Flame (0/21/40)


Shadowfury is a really nifty talent, but it doesn't shine in raids. It's usable in specific encounters and very good in those. But its use is rather limited in raids in general. That's why most people default to using 0/21/40, taking a few subpar talents to obtain Demonic Sacrifice, which boost shadow damage by 15%. I'll focus on that one here.


This build focuses primarily on Shadow Bolts with a high crit rate. At low gear levels, fire spells are viable, but they scale worse compared to their shadow counterparts. The key thing is to keep the Improved Shadow Bolt Debuff (ISB) up as much as possible, since it provides 20% extra shadow damage to the entire raid (including dots - this is a common misconception).


This spec scales best with gear, due to the high return of spelldamage and crits on Shadow Bolts. There has been some debate about what gear is needed for it to outperform affliction, and opinions are divided.


How to play:

- Sacrifice Succubus. Spam Shadow Bolts. Life Tap when needed. Bring potions, healthstones and bandages.

- Curse wise, if you don't have to provide recklessness, CoS, CoE or CoR to the raid, Curse of Doom or Agony are good choices, provided you don't lose tics on them.

- Corruption is marginally better than shadow bolts, usually, provided it doesn't get knocked off. If you lose even a single tic, or have to move to be able to cast it, Shadow Bolt will be superior.


Strong and weak points

- This spec has the most powerful burst damage. This is a boon when things need to die quick, but it makes it harder to manage threat while still maximizing dps.

- The least resilient and mana effective spec, requiring the occasional heal to be able to dps. With the exception of Bosses using Shadow and Fire spells, since this spec can come with Nether Protection.

- Scales the best with gear, due to Shadow Bolts getting a 104% bonus per +damage (3/3.5 + 0.2 from talents), more dps than any other spec.

- ISB uptime is hard to measure or model, but provides a boost in shadow damage to the entire raid

- This spec requires a lot less management since there are no real dots to keep track of, and no pet that can die. Some warlock dislike the lack of variety in spells used, others prefer it because it allows them to focus on other things, like keeping an overview of what is happening.


How to gear


Spell hit > Spell Haste > Spell damage/Crit








General gearing issues:

There are 4 main statistics for a warlock for dps:
Spell damage
Spell hit
Spell haste rating
Spell crit


Each of these has diminishing returns. If you have large quantities of one stat over the others, you can probably improve by making tradeoffs.

Spell hit is a special case, because it provides the most effective way to increase dps on bosses and is useless on everything else beyond 5%. Typically Warlocks will use two sets of gear, one for bosses and another for trash mobs or add fights.

Spell haste rating largely depends on the spells you use. Destruction warlocks will favor it most.



Tools for measuring DPS would include:

SWStats (or any other synching damage meter)
The other warlock dps spreadsheet
ShadowSeer Beta (which I'm shamelessly plugging here)

 

Chronitia

You are doing almost everything right, your shadow damage is way low though. Unfortunately I can't take a look at your gear due to the brewfest stuff, but I see that you are 375 tailoring. Do you have frozenshadoweave, spellstrike, and girdle of ruination? Do you have everything enchanted? Do you have blue quality gems in your gear?

Challenge every assumption, test every possibility, and never trust your gut. The most deadly combatants are borne of a scholar's relentless pursuit of truth.

 

Arelenda

Your talents seem solid, so is your description of what you're doing.

My guess is you're either being outgeared, outpotted, outbuffed (heroism/totems, etc), or you're losing dot tics. That might be due to debuffs being pushed off, or because you refresh them too early. Without WWS or a meter it's hard to tell.

 

• jonny

Re: Destro build early on. I've never set foot in a 25 man raid but we have cleared kara and I found my dps was a fair bit higher when I switched from affliction to destruction.
Zurgug
Kara WWS

My question is about dps time. In that WWS trace it shows I spent 65% of the time DPSing. Now on Aran there's a bit of running around to avoid blizzards and stuff so I can understand that, but some of the traces shown on here have destro locks with 99% dps time. Are these just fights where they litterally stand and spam bolts and never have to move? or is there some trick i'm missing to get my dps time up and increase my total damage done.

 

Xhunter

Providing a WWS would help in providing feedback. You are describing exactly what you should be doing, but WWS will show what you are actually doing. Those reports can be very effective at showing where improvements can be made.

 

Arelenda

Well, I was initially interested, so I did the math.


I'll compare to 0/21/40. You gain Shadow Mastery, which seems great. But:


Let's take a look at the spells you're using:

Immolate sucks when you have +10% and +15% bonus on shadow damage. Just leave it out.

Corruption is affected by Shadow Mastery. so far, so good.

Curse of Doom isn't affected by Shadow Mastery. (haven't tested myself but it's posted here)

Shadow Bolt is affected by Shadow Mastery, but for any decent amount of spellpower, Shadow And Flame boosts it more. (500 is equal, after that SnF is better)

Siphon Life is a nice addition, but it's not a source of dps

So this spec gains a better corruption (+10% shadow mastery, and a boost from empowered corruption) and siphon life, and loses 8% crit on Shadow Bolts that hit for less than with the classic 0/21/40.

So no, I don't think it's very effective.

 

probiscus

On the contrary I've read this thread from post 1, and IIRC, I've yet to see one person say that destruction can do more damage than affliction up through kara level gear. All the spreadsheets, anecdotal and subjective evidence support my claim, so if you have hard facts that say otherwise I'd be delighted to see them.

Personally, I enjoy the destruction playstyle, but when push comes to shove and something needs to die, affliction is where it's at for both my 70 warlocks gear levels (one is pre Kara, but hit capped, the other was in crafted / best-of-kara gear also hit capped). No raid gear b/c I passed on all of it for re-rolls, then guild imploded

 

Rezt

Hi there!

My guild is just starting Hyjal and Black Temple and I'm willing to respec to 0/21/40. I've been an Affliction Warlock since Karazhan.

I'm currently hit capped, 13.5% crit rating and 1231 shadow damage without any buffs on me but Fel Armor and with one of my trinkets being the Darkmoon Card: Crusade which I find very good for my current spec (41/0/20).

My first question is the most obvious one: is my gear good enough to try out a Destruction spec? I'm iffy about changing specs because of my crit rating -- I find it way too low. Is it worth to re-gem to achieve a higher crit chance? With a 0/21/40 spec I would be sitting on more or less 23% critical strike rating with raid buffs.

And my second question is about the above mentioned trinket Darkmoon card: Crusade. Is it viable choice for a Destruction Warlock? I have access to pretty much any trinket pre Hyjal/BT except for the Sextant of Unstable Currents.


Any advice would be much appreciated.

 

Trickykid

I was affliction through Karazhan, but soon after hitting 25mans I switched to destruction due to our raids hitting the debuff limit. I had crafted, heroic, karazhan and arena gear for the most part (only 1 item from a 25man). At that gear level I didn't see much of a DPS lift immediately but certainly not a drop (meaning I was probably at or near the tipping point). Since then I moved further from other locks/DPS.

So you certainly don't "need" BT/MH or even t5-content to make destro work. Plus you can make very appealing arguments to raid leaders to be put in the Caster buff groups for ISB uptime :P

 

Nas

This was answered in detail many times before, but the short answer is you can definitley make it work with your gear. I personally had very similar stats to yours when I first respeced and I did end up noticing a very nice increase in DPS over affliction.

 

Eph

Here is a little more you can add. Feel free to critique my choices, the last thing I want to do is lead someone astray.

Gems:
[Runed Living Ruby] Best gem after the hit cap.
[Veiled Noble Topaz] Useful after early raiding and before endgame raiding when hit starts to show up on gear but before it's on everything.
[Great Dawnstone] Useful in early raiding while far from the hit cap.
[Glowing Nightseye] Use only to meet exceptional socket bonuses or Metagem requirements.
[Potent Noble Topaz] Use only to meet exceptional socket bonuses or Metagem requirements after reaching the hit cap.
These same cuts are available for the Black Temple and Mt. Hyjal epic gems.

Affliction:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft Utility Spec
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft Standard Spec
There is some flexibility in the early parts of the Affliction tree for both specs.

Demonology:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft Better Shadow Bolt / ISB
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft Better Life Taps / Mobile Corruption
Some prefer to move points out of Mana Feed and Demonic Resilience.

Destruction:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft Shadow Bolt Spam
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft Immolate Improvements
The second is easier for tanking with out worrying about Nether Prot procs.

My personal preference is the first linked of each spec, exact builds for each are debatable.

 

Shuko

As there doesnt seem to be a clear answer either way, I decided to try it out myself. I do not have conclusive data for you, just a comparison from last night. You can easily shoot them down for it being just couple of examples in a not very static environment. However, they are examples where it actually counts, in encounters.

Ive only been raiding for a month or so in TBC, so my gear is quite bad still. So far Ive been UA speced and have lost to guildie(s) in most fights. Our stats with fel armor are:

Derfel 0/21/40 shadow
1200dmg
10% hit
19% crit (including 5% from deva)

Chrispy 41/5/15 affli
1200dmg
11% hit (capped with affli)
20% crit (4% from deva)

I was doing CoS and he did CoE, so no difference there. We were in same group with a shammy.

Unfortunately I didnt take shots from his dmg details as these were just meant for my own study.

http://derfel.org/wow/screenshots/wa...01007_alar.jpg
http://derfel.org/wow/screenshots/warlock/101007_vr.jpg
http://derfel.org/wow/screenshots/wa...7_solarian.jpg

Solarian isnt really a good fight for this kind of stuff; Aoe and air punts (I got it twice in that fight). He got more damage, but still lower dps.

I will keep on collecting more detailed info in future, but Im already getting a feeling the much advertised stats (1k dmg, hit cap and 25% crit) are above the point for destro to outdps affli.

 

Ralask

I just dont see where you are going to get the gear pre- BT/Hyjal to make the benefits of playing destro out weigh the benefits of playing affliction. As destro if you cannot beat the affliction locks by a clear margin 100-200 dps its doesnt really add anything to your raid. Providing IMP COE/COS is going to outweigh more imp shadow bolt uptime unless you are destroying the meter. If you are hitting max debuff slots thats a different story. Once you get the gear though its a huge difference. I cannot remember post SW nerf hitting 1350-1500 as affliction but its easily accomplished with destro.

 

clavarnway

Everything I have read says that because of the item budget that goes towards crit compared to spell damage, and also because of how well Shadow Bolt scales because of Shadow & Flame, spell damage is actually a very very good stat to stack for Destruction (the crit from what I'm reading comes with the gear).

So yes from what I've been reading Crusade card is very good for Destro.

Is this right other locks?

http://sigs.guildlaunch.net/sig.php/1424974uXyta.png

 

Eph

Yes, it's one of the best trinkets ingame as long as you can keep the buff up, which isn't too hard in alot of fights.

 

probiscus

Technically the most pure way to analyze it is via a spreadsheet - it's best way to establish an "everything else being equal" scenario. The best spreadsheet I've found is located below:

Welcome by Leulier and Piztai - WoW Warlock DPS Spreadsheet

Regarding comparing one warlocks damage to anothers on any fight, or even comparing your damage after a respec, isn't very accurate - as there are a million other things that could factor into damage outputs. Even something like getting fucked by the RNG can ruin your damage - for example I've parsed a 5% effective crit rate on a magtheridon kill when my tooltip (unbuffed) probably read 13% and I was grouped with an ele shammy.

From that point, the general trend should be getting your worst geared lock to be malediction / shadow embrace bitch (affliction is great for undergeared locks), and keep adding affl locks till you get near to the debuff limit, then adding destro locks, selecting from the best geared (hit cap > highest dmg > haste/crit). A large component of the analysis should, in my opinion, be based around what are your current "progression" fights in light of your guilds overall strengths and weaknesses.

At the end of the day though, the way itemization works (something you have no control over) will determine which specs are "best" at varying points in the game. Player skill, in that framework, has nothing to do with potential damage output. This is why affliction is superior, itemization does not catch up with the strengths of destro until *later* in the game.

 

Shuko

I inserted my gear and tried both specs. Got 1042dps for affli and 1045 for destro. So, using the "purest" way, destro still doesnt seem to be needing the hyjal/bt gear to be viable.

 

Ralask

So you get 3 more dps but cant use an imp and dont add DPS to your raid via imp COS/COE. I would view that as a loss in value of your spot. Sure its a little more dps but not enough to sacrifice the other buffs.

 

Silverstorm

For more information on trinkets: SimulationCraft/Trinkets/Warlock - Shadowpriest.com Wiki

There's quite a bit of other information on that site, and though I haven't taken a close look at the code for his simulations, my initial glances deem it sufficient.

 

probiscus

I'd go back and run both my locks gearsets through the calc to prove it, but I'm getting no less than 5 circular references upon downloading 1.15, fixing which would require auditing the spreadsheet, which I have just about zero inclination to do right now.

I'd fall back on you having a lot of mage-ish gear with a lot of crit on it, and some asinine trinkets to fill out your hit rating, so your crit is gamed while back-dooring your hit - but truth be told, I really don't care. I've run the numbers for all the gear I have, and affl > destro in basically any gear starting from 5 man non-heroics up through early 25 man raiding. Crafted tailoring gear only tilts the balance more towards affl for newbie raiders, and there are 85 pages of posts basically backing that up.

Maybe tonight, if I get bored, I'll figure out how to fix that spreadsheet. Unlikely though

 

Jaf

I have a question about the hit cap. When you say "best gem after the hit cap", do you mean this is the best gem to have after your gear alone takes you to the 202 hit cap? I'm guessing that's what you are saying, but I'm not completely clear on the entire hit cap subject.

 

Arelenda

The hit cap is +5% to hit on everything but level 73s (and bosses count as 73). For those you need +16% to hit. At that point you have an average resist chance of 1% on everything. You can't improve on that.

How you get that (gear/gems, talents, draenei, totem of wrath) doesn't matter. But once you reach the 16% mark, every bonus point in +hit does nothing. Because hit rating is so cheap (at 12.6 for one percent hit, if I remember it right), it's the cheapest way to increase your damage.