Have any felguard locks done the math on the usefulness of haste rating? I am 6/44/11 for both raiding and PVP, and generally top charts by a wide margin in my guild (we farm gruul, VR, and Lurker Below...now hydross like everyone else post 2.2, and will be working deeper in SSC to give an idea of where we are and what gear we have access to).
Perhaps an easier question, is the leulier spreadsheet fairly accurate in how it estimates the effects of haste rating? If so, I can go play with it myself, but I figure that (like crit) haste is only semi-useful to me, since some of my dmg comes from corruption and CoD or CoA, plus the DoT part of immolate.
ShadowSeer would be an excellent way to figure this out.
Have any felguard locks done the math on the usefulness of haste rating? I am 6/44/11 for both raiding and PVP, and generally top charts by a wide margin in my guild (we farm gruul, VR, and Lurker Below...now hydross like everyone else post 2.2, and will be working deeper in SSC to give an idea of where we are and what gear we have access to).
Perhaps an easier question, is the leulier spreadsheet fairly accurate in how it estimates the effects of haste rating? If so, I can go play with it myself, but I figure that (like crit) haste is only semi-useful to me, since some of my dmg comes from corruption and CoD or CoA, plus the DoT part of immolate.
the leulier spreadsheet should model this correctly.
at some point you will hit-capped and have to choose between items with damage/crit and damage/haste. haste should win easily point for point, especially without ruin.
the leulier spreadsheet should model this correctly.
at some point you will hit-capped and have to choose between items with damage/crit and damage/haste. haste should win easily point for point, especially without ruin.
Thanks. I'll put in the leulier time at some point before 2.3 then.
I've been hit capped for a while. In fact, I'm unfortunately about 20 hit rating over the hit cap thanks to picking up a new belt off Lurker Below the other week, and not re-gemming yet.
Wish I'd seen it earlier tbh, would have saved me asking stupid questions...
Back to stupid questions >_<
I've been running Shadowseer for a while now, and the biggest advice it's giving me is "Get more +dam".
Managed to down Lurker last night (Guild First \o/) with (IIRC) about 29 short of the hitcap. It still says +damage would have netted the bigger gain.
On top of that, I got trounced in the Recap meters by an affliction warlock (WWS to follow) who is running significantly less +dam/hit and crit than me - How? I realise that it's not a competition, but even so
scud: its your spec. 1/39/21 is a weird spec and you'll get more dps by speccing 41+/?/15+
something like this: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (move points from malediction to imp CoA if you are never on curse duty, i put 3 points in suppression because you have 144 hit rating, aim to get gear/gems for 202 hitrating even if it costs you spelldamage/crit)
untill you get some good hit/crit gear later on this will give you the best dps imo.
I´m not sure that 0/40/21 is a weird spec. Whenever I get some gear upgrade, I try the different specs in Bolche's spreadsheet. With (very) buffed >1500 +dam, about 25% crit, 5% from Soullink and 10% from MD Succubus it outperforms 0/21/40. Even with an imp 0/40/21 is only slightly worse, with more versatility. If the succubus can dish out some damage without dying (e.g. Tidewalker, Hydross) it is a very nice spec.
I´m not sure that 0/40/21 is a weird spec. Whenever I get some gear upgrade, I try the different specs in Bolche's spreadsheet. With (very) buffed >1500 +dam, about 25% crit, 5% from Soullink and 10% from MD Succubus it outperforms 0/21/40. Even with an imp 0/40/21 is only slightly worse, with more versatility. If the succubus can dish out some damage without dying (e.g. Tidewalker, Hydross) it is a very nice spec.
How many fights are you realistically able to use the succy though? Felguard is one thing but hes got more sta, armor and his MD gives him some extra resists. Is Voidstar + 2 peice T5 enough to keep her alive?
How many fights are you realistically able to use the succy though? Felguard is one thing but hes got more sta, armor and his MD gives him some extra resists. Is Voidstar + 2 peice T5 enough to keep her alive?
I ran a succubus on void reaver before I got up the nerve to try the felguard again after getting the two piece bonus. Having her sit back and look pretty she survived just fine, even sucking up some damage for me without to much issue thanks to the tier five healing.
Tried the same thing on phase 1 Alar, thinking I'd get some extra damage out of her while the felguard couldn't really attack. The first flame buffet nailed her.
The felguard probably has 2k more hp then the succubus, 35 more resistance built in, and aoe avoidance. He'll also take 5% less damage from all sources over a 0/40/21 succubus unless you gimp your own damage output somewhere when setting up the build.
Keep in mind that my evidence is pretty anecdotal, my succubus would be a bit beefier then the average 0/40/21 builds but I don't have a voidstar. There's not a fight up through Kael I don't use the felguard on in some respect.
With the numbers provided earlier I came up with close to 1700 dps using doom, having the succubus attack with improved lash of pain, and a corruption, immolate, shadow bolt casting rotation. If the succubus can't attack your dps drops down to about 1500.
The 0/21/40 build hits 1450 dps at 1300 spell damage (a pretty realistic comparison considering the gain off DK on a fully buffed pet).
If you don't mind all the hassle of parking the pet and casting more then one spell 1/39/21 or 0/40/21 does seem to come out ahead when using curse of doom.
1341 is the number for no pet attacking while on curse of shadows for 1/39/21.
1294 for 0/21/40 on curse of shadows so again the pet spec comes out ahead on shadows.
All of this of course just uses base line numbers (no tier six bonuses or anything). Consider that you'll be casting fewer shadow bolts with the 1/39/21 build then 0/21/40 so tier six may tip the scales a bit(because of how MD succubus and Soul Link work the spec gains a lot more from keeping immolate around then 0/21/40 and because of how S & F works it gains a lot less from shadow bolting then 0/21/40 making it so you pretty much have to keep immolate and corruption in your cast cycle).
For quick comparison moving that point out of Ruin to pick up the felguard gives you 1489 when the pet can attack and 1189 when it can't while running curse of shadows. The succubus spec sits at 1520 when it can attack and 1341 when it can't.
Keeping the succubus alive though, even on fights where she's not attacking is a whole different issue. Voidstar might make it doable but from what I saw in phase 1 Alar she's extremely vulnerable to aoe damage.
I'm a long time lurker, first time poster... and as I have relatively recently gotten Void Star Talisman (and have 2/5 Tier 5 set bonus) I wanted to try out Demonology. I tried a 6/44/11 build briefly, and noticed a pretty signifigant personal dps increase (carefully culled from WWS logs) from my previous 45/5/11 Affliction build, but changed back to Affliction for my guilds first Kael kill. Now that Kael is down, I'm speccing back to Demonology but I'm torn between builds. I have done a tremendous amount of research through our guilds WWS logs, and using the Warlock DPS 1.15 spreadsheet and I'm resolved to one of the following builds: (all DPS/HP/sec numbers based off my current gear not including raid buffs/consumes)
0/43/18: This build gets all of the Demonology goodies except for 1% crit from Demonic Tactics sacrificed for an additional 5% threat reduction, and 10% range increase from Destructive Reach. Total of 9% crit from talents.
0/44/17: This build is a lot like the first one, but keeps the 1% crit from Demonic Tactics and gets 1/2 Destructive Reach.
6/44/11: This build goes with Affliction to fill out the damage/efficiency instead of Destruction. 5/5 Improved Corruption gives an insta-cast DoT, and 1/2 Improved Lifetap gives 10% additional mana from Lifetaps. This build offers no passive threat reduction or range increase to any spells.
7/43/11: This build is a lot like the last one, except it trades 1% crit from Demonic Tactics for an additional 10% mana from Lifetap making it more efficient. Overall this build raises personal dps, and efficiency at a slight cost to ISB debuff uptime. This build offers no passive threat reduction or range increase to any spells.
1/44/16: This build is a hybrid between the two basic types listed before, getting maximum crit benefit from Demonology and Destruction, but reducing Corruption's cast time rather than getting increased range or threat reduction. Highest HP/sec cost, but theoretically higher dps. Least favorite build.
I do find it somewhat frustrating to raid without range increasing talents, but as a long time Affliction Warlock I'm used to having no Destructive Reach. Our guild is coming close to hitting the debuff limit however, so I've been seriously thinking about getting rid of Corruption in my spell rotation. With Destructive Reach and high crit, I could sit back and Immolate/Shadowbolt after an initial curse (CoS/CoE/CoR) while my Felguard does melee dps. Alternatively the improved mana efficiency from a 6-7 point investment in Affliction could greatly impact my ability to dps successfully. Any suggestions?
I generally use 1/44/16, specced 20/41/0 right now because I was testing out it's potential for pvp.
If you have 4/5 t5 the bonus corruption damage (albeit not that great, it is a slight dps increase) is something to consider.
I dump five points in extra crit on the destruction side and one in shadow burn. A bit better ISB uptime then the more typical 6/44/11 builds, a bit more damage in some situations, a bit less mobile though.
Generally threat reduction shouldn't be something to consider with demo builds. Because your pet produces a substantial part of your damage you're actually the least likely to be threat capped of any spec. Range is also something I tend to nix unless I can pick up range in all the spells I plan to use (especially if the spell causing the range issue isn't instant cast such as a non-improved corruption). It's just much simpler to have the same range on everything you plan to cast rather then having to move in and out. If you do decide to drop corruption completely though then the 0/43/18 build looks really solid. The dropping of corruption from your rotation will most likely hit your dps as will the 1% crit loss (for you and the pet) off of DT. The greater range though will come in handy. The threat reduction probably not so much. I soul shatter on trash on occasion when I get overzealous, aoeing the weapons on Kael, and VR (still working on Kael so can't comment beyond that). Otherwise there's not a fight in SSC or TK I can even touch the threat cap, and if I could I'd still have a shatter available.
Avoidance is the talent, that gives the FG a serious advantage over a Succubus. I often had it survive some aoe with little life left, and it has a lot more life than a Succubus. So you can´t use the (fighting) succubus as often as the FG, e.g. Lurker is quite difficult, Void Reaver impossible, Al'ar... never tried it, but seems to be challenging at least.
I don´t have a Talisman, so this might change, but even a Succubus standing at the Edge of Void Reaver's Room gives me 2% more crit and about 200 +dam over 0/21/40. Of course I lose SnF, Nether Protection, Soul Leech, Cataclysm or wherever else you might spend your points in. But I like the versatility of using an imp on aggro-sensitive fights, a Felhunter if I have to tank Leotheras etc.
This might not be the spec that ends all dicussions, but I just wanted to point out that it is not a "weird spec" ;-)
I generally use 1/44/16, specced 20/41/0 right now because I was testing out it's potential for pvp.
If you have 4/5 t5 the bonus corruption damage (albeit not that great, it is a slight dps increase) is something to consider.
I dump five points in extra crit on the destruction side and one in shadow burn. A bit better ISB uptime then the more typical 6/44/11 builds, a bit more damage in some situations, a bit less mobile though.
Generally threat reduction shouldn't be something to consider with demo builds. Because your pet produces a substantial part of your damage you're actually the least likely to be threat capped of any spec. Range is also something I tend to nix unless I can pick up range in all the spells I plan to use (especially if the spell causing the range issue isn't instant cast such as a non-improved corruption). It's just much simpler to have the same range on everything you plan to cast rather then having to move in and out. If you do decide to drop corruption completely though then the 0/43/18 build looks really solid. The dropping of corruption from your rotation will most likely hit your dps as will the 1% crit loss (for you and the pet) off of DT. The greater range though will come in handy. The threat reduction probably not so much. I soul shatter on trash on occasion when I get overzealous, aoeing the weapons on Kael, and VR (still working on Kael so can't comment beyond that). Otherwise there's not a fight in SSC or TK I can even touch the threat cap, and if I could I'd still have a shatter available.
Nod, thats a good point. I'm not the main person responsible for maintaining ISB, so I'm not terribly concerned about the loss of some crit if my overall dps goes up and my drain on healers is down. I think I'm going to go with 7/43/11, dropping that 1% in crit for mana efficiency. During a straight casting/lifetapping situation without a Shadow priest, I will be saving 1200 hps/minute for 1% crit. Thanks for the response.
0/43/18: This build gets all of the Demonology goodies except for 1% crit from Demonic Tactics sacrificed for an additional 5% threat reduction, and 10% range increase from Destructive Reach. Total of 9% crit from talents.
A quick comment on this: it makes more sense to drop 1% crit from devastation than from Demonic Tactics. 1% crit to all your spells and your demon Vs. 1% crit to destro spells.
Avoidance is the talent, that gives the FG a serious advantage over a Succubus. I often had it survive some aoe with little life left, and it has a lot more life than a Succubus. So you can´t use the (fighting) succubus as often as the FG, e.g. Lurker is quite difficult, Void Reaver impossible, Al'ar... never tried it, but seems to be challenging at least.
I don´t have a Talisman, so this might change, but even a Succubus standing at the Edge of Void Reaver's Room gives me 2% more crit and about 200 +dam over 0/21/40. Of course I lose SnF, Nether Protection, Soul Leech, Cataclysm or wherever else you might spend your points in. But I like the versatility of using an imp on aggro-sensitive fights, a Felhunter if I have to tank Leotheras etc.
This might not be the spec that ends all dicussions, but I just wanted to point out that it is not a "weird spec" ;-)
Agreed. As my guild's Leo tank I started running demo builds nearly 100% of the time just because it was easier on my pocket book then constant respecs. I got pretty hooked on the felguard and have adjusted to the playstyle to the point where I now feel crippled without him (much as I actually felt when I specced into it with all the loss of range, big numbers off my nukes, and other goodies destruction was giving me at the time.)
The numbers certainly show that 1/39/21 and 0/40/21 are competitive specs, even more so when you can get the succubus in there to melee and on aoe heavy fights where you can't keep a succubus alive... roll with an imp or felhunter. I'm sure with his innate resists the felhunter wouldn't have any issues staying up while maintaining the spell damage bonus for you, five percent more damage from soul link, and a good amount of resistance for yourself (which on aoe fights can take some stress of your healing team or coupled with soul link prevent you from getting gibbed outright).
I've been running Shadowseer for a while now, and the biggest advice it's giving me is "Get more +dam".
Managed to down Lurker last night (Guild First \o/) with (IIRC) about 29 short of the hitcap. It still says +damage would have netted the bigger gain.
On top of that, I got trounced in the Recap meters by an affliction warlock (WWS to follow) who is running significantly less +dam/hit and crit than me - How? I realise that it's not a competition, but even so
My Armoury (I usually have Archmage + Spellpower MH and Talisman of NB OH)
Immo = Always up, CoD = Always up (bar trash), Corr = Always up, SB spam in the meantime + Pot/Taps.
ShadowSeer doesn't like hit too much. There's two reasons for that.
1. Hit is kind of overrated and situational. It's the best way to increase dps on a boss, but it does _nothing_ against everything else. If you run around with 200 spell hit rating on trash or adds, you're effectively wasting 130 points. Considering there is a lot of trash and add fights, it's worth building two gear gets. The Lurker fight has about 25% of damage on adds, according to a WWS.
2. ShadowSeer uses your recorded hit ratio, not the theorethical value. (because that one is dynamical, with Draenei and Totem of Wrath).
Say you're 8% short of the hit cap. (91% theorethical hit rating). If you get lucky and get 96% hit ratio during the fight, and you ask ShadowSeer to tell you gains with a better hit rating, ShadowSeer will cap it at 99%, calculating it as 3% difference. It does not err in the other direction: if you get unlucky, you simply won't reach the cap. If anyone has a good algorithm for a better estimate, I'd like to hear it.
As for why you got outdamaged by an affliction warlock, I don't see why you should be. A WWS might help. ShadowSeer will also tell you if your dots aren't getting their full potential. Losing one tic of a dot usually means you should have use SB instead. Check your effective Damage-Per-Casting-Time for all spells you're using and look up your ISB contribution to the raid. Maybe that can give you an indication.
A quick comment on this: it makes more sense to drop 1% crit from devastation than from Demonic Tactics. 1% crit to all your spells and your demon Vs. 1% crit to destro spells.
Because you need the destro points to get the Increased Range and threat reduction on SBs
Because you need the destro points to get the Increased Range and threat reduction on SBs
Technically thats not true, because the build suggested has 1 point in Shadowburn which reaches Destructive Reach with 4/5 Devastation. At the time I removed it from Demonic Tactics instead of Devastation though because I was thinking that if the pet died I would maintain the bonus, but the poster who commented on the swap of those two is probably correct, its a better bet as Tactics will offer the bonus to Seed of Corruption, pet melee swings, and anything else that is not a Destruction spell.
Of course, if I go with a 7/43/11 I won't have a choice I will have to drop a point from Tactics, as I consider Demonic Resilience to be crucial for a Felguard build to keep the FG standing, and Demonic Knowledge is even more important. The only other item I could consider dropping is 1/3 Mana Feed, but the FG has poor regen without it, and during boss fights he will go OOM very quickly. The 1% crit I would lose from Tactics doesn't actually affect the overall dps very much at all according to the Warlock dps spreadsheet anyway.
I generally use 1/44/16, specced 20/41/0 right now because I was testing out it's potential for pvp.
If you have 4/5 t5 the bonus corruption damage (albeit not that great, it is a slight dps increase) is something to consider.
I dump five points in extra crit on the destruction side and one in shadow burn. A bit better ISB uptime then the more typical 6/44/11 builds, a bit more damage in some situations, a bit less mobile though.
Generally threat reduction shouldn't be something to consider with demo builds. Because your pet produces a substantial part of your damage you're actually the least likely to be threat capped of any spec. Range is also something I tend to nix unless I can pick up range in all the spells I plan to use (especially if the spell causing the range issue isn't instant cast such as a non-improved corruption). It's just much simpler to have the same range on everything you plan to cast rather then having to move in and out. If you do decide to drop corruption completely though then the 0/43/18 build looks really solid. The dropping of corruption from your rotation will most likely hit your dps as will the 1% crit loss (for you and the pet) off of DT. The greater range though will come in handy. The threat reduction probably not so much. I soul shatter on trash on occasion when I get overzealous, aoeing the weapons on Kael, and VR (still working on Kael so can't comment beyond that). Otherwise there's not a fight in SSC or TK I can even touch the threat cap, and if I could I'd still have a shatter available.
I concur on the range talents comment you made. I always thought you shouldn't get Grim Reach without getting Destructive Reach at the same time, since you'll spend a good amount of time standing still shooting shadowbolts anyway. On the other hand, going for a Destruction spec like 0/21/40 you can live without Grim Reach, considering Corruption isn't much of a DPS gain and you can freely drop it from your rotation. Being on CoD/CoS/CoE or even CoR duty means moving closer to the boss once per minute/5 minutes, once every 18 seconds is not an option in my book since I prefer standing at max range.
[quote=tusaki;522485]scud: its your spec. 1/39/21 is a weird spec and you'll get more dps by speccing 41+/?/15+QUOTE]
The thing is, I was specced that way, but since we started serious 25 man attempts, discovered the debuff limit became an issue. I volunteered to respec destro(ish) for the ISB uptime thing, and to take less slots.
However, it appears that I may have shot myself in the foot, as Spriest availability is low, and we have no shammies.
Technically thats not true, because the build suggested has 1 point in Shadowburn which reaches Destructive Reach with 4/5 Devastation.
Why would you take Shadowburn in a PVE raiding build, in my opinion its a PVP talent which adds very little to raiding, compared to an extra 1% crit anyway. Just wondering what your reasons behind taking this talent are?
The thing is, I was specced that way, but since we started serious 25 man attempts, discovered the debuff limit became an issue. I volunteered to respec destro(ish) for the ISB uptime thing, and to take less slots.
Well, if its any consolidation, considering your situation, I would stay this way. You do good dps and altough you may not be #1 for some time to come, as you get better gear you will gain a lot more and scale a lot better than the rest. But, mind you, considering you are at lurker... this will take a while. If anything, you might consider speccing cookie cutter 0/21/40, since almost none of the fights you will face in the near future are really pet friendly.
Well, if its any consolidation, considering your situation, I would stay this way. You do good dps and altough you may not be #1 for some time to come, as you get better gear you will gain a lot more and scale a lot better than the rest. But, mind you, considering you are at lurker... this will take a while. If anything, you might consider speccing cookie cutter 0/21/40, since almost none of the fights you will face in the near future are really pet friendly.
SSC:
for Leo: you'll make a good tank
for Karatress: ought to be great, stay away from the priest with your succubus, though
for Morogrim: ought to be fine, if you get a shadow priest or the succubus gets healed through quakes somehow. T5 set bonus will make a major difference.
for Vashj: I'd say you're pretty much screwed. You might even consider a respec if you're focusing on her and you don't have 2p T5 yet.
If anything, you might consider speccing cookie cutter 0/21/40, since almost none of the fights you will face in the near future are really pet friendly.
Thanks for the encouragement, I'll take the 0/21/40 thing on board - like you said pet friendly fights are low at the moment sadly. I'm not looking at serious raiding for a while yet (Feb 2008 is planned) due to work constraints. So it looks like I'm pretty much stuck with Kz/ZA/Gruul/Mag and forays into SSC for the first couple of bosses.
I'm currently building a couple of sets (+hit and +dam) so I can swap out effectively between trash and bosses.
Edit - messing about with Leuliers sheet, Whilst it includes the MD bonus (which for some reason doesn't appear on the character sheer) does it include +damage gained from Demonic Knowledge, or do I need to add it myself?
10/19/07, 11:09 PM
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