Nether Protection is useful is Arenas (although you should spec something better) and in BGs. Soloing most mobs are melee, but the infinite respawn Shadow bolt Orcs the talent is nice (if it procs before they cast then they melee, if they are already casting they will finish the cast).
On Gorefiend it is a very powerful talent. It does not work with Doomfire's DoT nor the Rain of Fire (but does work on Silience, so if you got silience + Rain of Fire then you are good to go).
I am was able to spec Destro again, I still would pickup the talent, because marginal utility > buffing Immolate.
Nether Protection is pretty much worthless for BT/Hyjal. I spec'd into it for little over a week and was disappointed with the results.
What Proc's It:
Silence on Azgalor.
Beams on Mother Shaz.
Shadowbolts on Teron.
What Don't Proc It:
Doomfire on Archimonde.
Fatal Attraction on Shaz
Anything on RoS
Rain of Fire
Downside to what does proc it... is it's very rare that you'll suffer damage again while it's up.
"Hey! A SB on Teron proc'd my NP WOOT!" then you go a while before another one even comes at you, effectively making the effect wasted.
"Hey! Mother Shaz's beam proc'd NP!" then the next 2 beams hit 10 different people who take minimal damage due to being in SR gear anyways.
Had this talent worked on RoS, it would be one of the ultimate end-game talents, but as it is... its crap. Plus it means you cant tank Illidan.
This is actually incorrect. You can check with your gear in the Warlock dps spreadsheet, but because the coefficient bonus of Shadow and Flame, a 40 pt Destruction Warlock will lose dps by using Immolate in their rotation even if they have equal fire/shadow dmg. It because an even worse choice if you have more shadow than fire. Immolate is an excellent spell to have in your rotation as Affliction/Demo however. For optimal damage as a 0/21/40 Destruction build you will be using a curse and Shadowbolt...only shadowbolt. The coefficient bonus from SnF is just too big to make it effective.
Let me start by saying I don't like spreadsheets. I tend to calculate absolutely everything by hand. This post is no exception. Also, for clarification, I am still Affliction for two reasons: (1) I like the playstyle, (2) I bring Malediction and Shadow Embrace.
That aside, I've begun to calculate DPCT's using WWS instead of spreadsheets. WWS parses are real raids and, in my opinion, will produce the most accurate numbers as to which casts will benefit you the most. Due to this, it seems to be that a common theorycrafting misconception is that Immolate/Corruption should not be used for an 0/21/40 "rotation". Given some calculations via WWS, I have found this to not be true (on a theory level). An example is worth a thousand words:
Take my guild mate's Armory: The World of Warcraft Armory
Not take a WWS parse of him while he was experimenting with 0/21/40: Cordy - WWS (one of the only ones I could find, but it illustrates my point)
So, if you manually calculate his DPCT's, you'll get the following:
These are averages, they're over the span of the entire Rage Winterchill fight (which is mostly just standing there DPS'ing), and thus are on a fully raid debuffed target. So even on a raw single-target fight, Shadow Bolt has a lower DPCT than Corruption and Immolate. Given his gear (yes, he mostly had the same things at the time of the WWS parse), he's geared fine for 0/21/40 and according to most, is at the point where Corruption/Immolate should be dropped. Calculations say otherwise.
What am I missing here? Corruption's DPCT is considerably higher than Shadow Bolt still, but I'm sure very few high-end 0/21/40 Warlocks actually use it. Even with another 10% crit (he'd go to 39% talented), the DPCT of Shadow Bolt would still be slightly under Immolate and almost definitely under Corruption still.
The only reasoning I can think of is that every fight is different and has different scenarios, thus using WWS parses can't be accurate. My opinion is that WWS parses are the only real data we can get; spreadsheets are merely theorycraft, but calculating DPCT in this manner is real.
Whenever I hear someone say it's better to drop Immolate or Corruption out of a destruction rotation, their reasoning is that "my DPS went up". What they don't realize is that dropping them out yields less effective DPS time ("DPS time" in WWS) which is what you divide your damage by to get DPS. Dividing 500,000 by 360 seconds will yield a lot more DPS than dividing by 400 seconds. Thus, a WWS parse can be deceptive in that manner, something most people don't seem to realize.
I guess my point is: don't go by spreadsheets. Take a WWS. Calculate what works for you. Apply it.
Edit: You can take an even more extremely, well-geared example: Bver - WWS
Immolate is more than worthwhile here and Corruption is still superior. Just browse WWS parses for non-skewed fights (fights that don't explicitly favor one spell or another) where a destruction Warlock (easily identified by cast sequence / average Shadow Bolt damage) uses Immolate and/or Corruption.
Oh, well, I realized I forgot to calculate the DPCT addition for ISB. On average, I'd say it adds 200 to 300 DPCT onto Shadow Bolt (if calculating raid damage) which would generally put it over Corrutpion. Immolate is still significantly ahead, though.
Oh, well, I realized I forgot to calculate the DPCT addition for ISB. On average, I'd say it adds 200 to 300 DPCT onto Shadow Bolt (if calculating raid damage) which would generally put it over Corrutpion. Immolate is still significantly ahead, though.
Shadowseer estimates about 1000-2000 per crit, on bosses, during our raids. So if one in 3 is a crit, you're looking at 300-700 DPCT added. It also tells me DPCT for each spell used.
It depends heavily on the amount of Shadow users and targets, obviously. The number above is for boss fights.
The reason you usually don't use Corruption is because it's got lower range, uses a debuff slot and has no threat reduction. Also, with the amount of burst damage you can put out, you typically want to be able to stop all dps if you get close to MT threat. Also, it's one less timer you've got to worry about.
It's definitely viable, though. It just depends on the fight. Leotheras is a prime example, since you slap Corruption/Immolate on him when he's done whirlwinding. Any fight where you want don't want to use the potentially high threat Shadow Bolt is suited.
Notable data:
Shadow Bolt averages 3000 damage non crit, 8400 crit, with 29%. About 4500 average without ISB.
Immolate averages 2450 damage per cast (62% crit)
Corruption averages 3000 damage per cast
I didn't lose a single tic on any of the dots. I won't count my haste, since it's neglible. I have like 3%.
And that's why I don't use them on my standard rotation. I don't have improved Immolate, and only one point in emberstorm, though. If I had, Immolate would almost reach 1800 as well, according to my calculations. But that's still not contributing to ISB.
[It] seems to be that a common theorycrafting misconception is that Immolate/Corruption should not be used for an 0/21/40 "rotation". Given some calculations via WWS, I have found this to not be true (on a theory level). An example is worth a thousand words:
Take my guild mate's Armory: The World of Warcraft Armory
Not take a WWS parse of him while he was experimenting with 0/21/40: Cordy - WWS (one of the only ones I could find, but it illustrates my point)
The reason Cordy is not getting the ratios that theorycrafting says he should is that he spends a lot of time waiting between casts. The dots from Immolate and Corruption compensate for this wait, which is why their contribution to his dps is greater than it should be.
According to your WWS parse, Cordy was doing dps for 4 and a half minutes. In that time he cast 42 Shadow Bolts, 13 Immolates, 16 Life Taps and did 47,000 points of damage with Corruption; with his gear that means he cast Corruption 47,000/2200 or about 21 times. Total is:
(42*2.5) + (13*1.5) + (16*1.5) + (21*2) = 190.5 seconds of cast time.
Doing about 3 minutes of casting in 4 and a half minutes of combat suggests that Cordy's dps would go up by more from using /stopcasting than it would by using Immolate and Corruption.
I'm getting 45 min load times on WWS, so I can't check, but are you calculating that DPCT on SB from his non-crits? That number just looks absurdly low for a t6 level warlock.
I'm getting 45 min load times on WWS, so I can't check, but are you calculating that DPCT on SB from his non-crits? That number just looks absurdly low for a t6 level warlock.
Hmm, now that you mention it, that is about what I think a T6 warlock would hit for. I'm slightly below that and my bolts hit for 3000 in the WWS mentioned earlier. Not sure what's up with the 35 min wait on WWS, but I'm fairly sure this is the cause of the error.
Hmm, now that you mention it, that is about what I think a T6 warlock would hit for. I'm slightly below that and my bolts hit for 3000 in the WWS mentioned earlier. Not sure what's up with the 35 min wait on WWS, but I'm fairly sure this is the cause of the error.
When I was sitting in early-t5 gear my average non-crits were 2900-3100 depending on the night.
Ahah, I got WWS to load, and as suspected he's using the non-crit average to determine DPCT (tsk tsk!). He has 42 noncrits average 3,342 damage, but he also had 15 crits averaging 6,571. A total of 57 casts yielded 238,972 damage.
238972/57 = 4192 shadowbolt average.
4192/2.5 = 1677 DPCT (without ISB) -- not the 1337 dpct if the lock never crit.
I have a quick question about seed of corruption. I was looking at our SSC WWS and was comparing my damage to the other warlock in the raid. On SoC heavy fights (Hydross, Morogrim) he is blowing me out of the water with Seed. Wow Web Stats shows that Widowmaker got 703 seed hits where I only got 465. How should I be casting my seed to maximize the explosions and damage? Multiple seeds over multiple targets or pick one being hit and cast seed even if the dps isn't enough to set it off right away?
I have a quick question about seed of corruption. I was looking at our SSC WWS and was comparing my damage to the other warlock in the raid. On SoC heavy fights (Hydross, Morogrim) he is blowing me out of the water with Seed. Wow Web Stats shows that Widowmaker got 703 seed hits where I only got 465. How should I be casting my seed to maximize the explosions and damage? Multiple seeds over multiple targets or pick one being hit and cast seed even if the dps isn't enough to set it off right away?
Depends on whether or not the mobs are going to be tanked and whether you want instant or delayed damage. If mobs are all being tanked, you can go for instant damage and spam onto a single target that will always pop by the time your next lands. If mobs are being collected for AoE but won't have a tank after AoE begins, you may want to delay your damage and spread seeds over multiple targets so that they all pop together.
For my raids, Hydross is the first situation and Morogrom is the second.
The answer is it really depends. You don't want to overlap seeds on one target so unless you're sure that one target is taking enough focus fire to set your seeds off within two seconds tab seeding would be better. Just have to adjust to the situation. On Hydross I always seed Hydross but on Morogrim and Solarian I tab seed. I also tab seed on trash pulls unless something is marked for single target dps to kill, in which case I bounce all my seeds off that target.
A bit of advice when tab seeding. Tab target, start casting seed of corruption, and then tab again mid cast. On the third or fourth seed you may want to start double tabbing midcast if you think your first tabbed target doesn't have enough health to survive into your cast. Basically use the two second cast time to pick your next target and work through the targets intelligently.
Originally Posted by Benafflock
From my personal experience, this is what I have witnessed Capernian do to an NP Warlock tank:
1. Cast Fireball
2. Nether Protection Procs, Capernian begins casting another Fireball.
3. Second Fireball hits, Capernian recognizes target as immune, heads into melee range.*
4. Usually Nether Protection fades by this time and the Warlock tank now has either been Conflagrated or Arcane Bursted.
*Sometimes she would cast another Fireball despite NP being up, sometimes not.
I tried tanking her last week with NP and she wouldn't head into melee range. We also use an NP warlock as the offtank during phase 1 and we've never seen her do this. It's possible the mechanics got changed (we've only been doing Kael since 2.2).
What she does do is start casting on whoever is next on her aggro list. During phase 1 this isn't a big deal but during phase 3 it's almost always going to be your healer. Because of this I'd say it's very possible to tank her in phase 3 with Nether Protection. I wouldn't recommend it though, healing one target that is getting fireballed is going to be way less stress on your healer then having to guess which of the two of you is about to eat the nuke. (I specced back to full demo the next night, just less stress all the way around.)
Nether Protection is pretty much worthless for BT/Hyjal. I spec'd into it for little over a week and was disappointed with the results.
What Proc's It:
Silence on Azgalor.
Beams on Mother Shaz.
Shadowbolts on Teron.
What Don't Proc It:
Doomfire on Archimonde.
Fatal Attraction on Shaz
Anything on RoS
Rain of Fire
Downside to what does proc it... is it's very rare that you'll suffer damage again while it's up.
"Hey! A SB on Teron proc'd my NP WOOT!" then you go a while before another one even comes at you, effectively making the effect wasted.
"Hey! Mother Shaz's beam proc'd NP!" then the next 2 beams hit 10 different people who take minimal damage due to being in SR gear anyways.
Had this talent worked on RoS, it would be one of the ultimate end-game talents, but as it is... its crap. Plus it means you cant tank Illidan.
You can tank illidan with it, make a /cancelaura macro to spam with /cast searing pain.
You can tank illidan with it, make a /cancelaura macro to spam with /cast searing pain.
Even spamming /cancelaura, Illidan/Capernian/whatever will change behavior (target someone else, use a different ability, etc). I've seen it personally and I'm pretty sure it's even in one of the warlock threads in this forum a couple times.
As far as the Immolate debate goes, even if a spell has higher dpct does not mean it is always better to cast: you should also consider the effective dps loss from increased mana consumption rate. Using Immolate in your rotation will cost at least about 10 mps.
As a toy example, let's say the average values with all debuffs taken into account are 4000 SBs and 2500 Immolates, which puts dpct at 1600 and 1667 respectively, so Immolate appears to have an edge. In a 5-minute fight which allows 20 Immolate casts, an Immolate cycle will use more mana: 8900 for 20 Immolates vs. 5040 for 12 SBs in the same timeframe. That means you can expect to life tap three more times in the Immolate scenario. The 20 Immolates contribute 50k damage, the 12 SBs contribute 48k damage; but you get to throw a couple more shadow bolts in the non-Immolate scenario instead of lifetapping so pure SB spam wins out despite having lower dpct.
Ahah, I got WWS to load, and as suspected he's using the non-crit average to determine DPCT (tsk tsk!). He has 42 noncrits average 3,342 damage, but he also had 15 crits averaging 6,571. A total of 57 casts yielded 238,972 damage.
238972/57 = 4192 shadowbolt average.
4192/2.5 = 1677 DPCT (without ISB) -- not the 1337 dpct if the lock never crit.
Ah, now I see my folly -- I assumed average hit had the crits factored in (as being Affliction, 3000+ average hit seems absurdly high). Yes, you're right, the DPCT is almost 1700 and factoring in ISB, I now see the reason Immolate/Corruption is not used.
Any advice? I'm geared in blues, and I don't have the requisite spell hit, but that is a work in progress.
Part of my problem seems to be immolate uptime, and optimal trinket usage. I open at 3 sunders with UA > Cor > Immo even though its a bit inefficient, as Immo causes upfront threat while the others don't, and then I try to keep immo off the same timer as the other two.
Certainly it is hardly imperative to maximize dps and survival / not spiraling doomfires is much more important, but there are plenty of wws parses of warlocks doing well and of course getting the boss down faster means less chances for wiping due to bad luck. Personally I would be happy to sustain even half the dps I do on stationary fights, but it's not happening so far. Is there some trick with positioning and fear counter rotations thatwould allow good performance here? What kind of dps time should be expected?
Any advice? I'm geared in blues, and I don't have the requisite spell hit, but that is a work in progress.
Part of my problem seems to be immolate uptime, and optimal trinket usage. I open at 3 sunders with UA > Cor > Immo even though its a bit inefficient, as Immo causes upfront threat while the others don't, and then I try to keep immo off the same timer as the other two.
Get a threat meter, if you're not close to the tank threat you want to start dps earlier. If you are close to aggroing with 600 dps, get a new tank.
Honestly, I don't have the time (and really the want) to read through the whole thread, so I'm going to go ahead and ask a question about spell rotations for the 0/21/40 spec. I've been told about a rotation that includes Immolate and Conflag and I was wondering if it's any better than a straight SB spam, which I've been told by others that is the best way to go (obviously, reapplying curses as needed). So, for the former it'd be (assuming CoD/CoS/CotE):
Immolate->SB->SB->SB->SB->Conflag, which eats up the last tick of Immolate
vs. the SB spam with intermittent life tapping.
So, which puts out the best overall DPS and, if different, which would put out the best DPS for my specific gear level and talents. My Armory Link
You don't have to read the whole thread, the past two pages would have answered your question for you. Immolate is only worth it in certain situations, but to be honest, 0/21/40 really isn't the ideal spec at your gear level. If you're really interested in making it work, pick up the Scryer's Blood Gem and 2/2 Spellstrike for a good start.
Conflag had already been mathed out to be a loss of DPS unless you cast it during movement where you would've otherwise not cast anything else. The 1 tick of immolate + 1.5s spent casting shadowbolts instead of being on the GCD from conflag should do more damage than conflag.
I dunno if this is in the compedium but it should be
10/31/07, 5:16 PM
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