Hello,
I've read the thread i've found here about warriors (especially tanking ones) but i've got some remaining questions i can't answer... My main is a resto chamy, but these question are both for my warrior alt, and because my guild isn't "theorycrafting addicted", so i'm trying to pass them the best of this forum.

For the moment, i've convinced them that:
- They need 490 in def to avoid crit
- They need to keep shield block up to avoid crushes.

But beyond these points, it's a blackhole, we have ramping arguments of stamina vs avoidance, etc.

So here are my questions:
- Is there some definitive evidence of crush immunity with shield block requiring 25% block or 25% total avoidance?
- I know that the stam vs avoidance has no definitive answer, but do you have an idea of "sufficient HP" to obtain before going for avoidance? We are currently at gruul, and completing Kara (but not everything on farm status yet).
- after this HP point, how to maximize avoidance? I have the feeling that defence beyond 490 is overbudgeted, but i can't find the precise figures to prove them that. How do def/dodge/parade ratings compare in terms of avoidance? How do you value block rating and block value to them?
- Do you try to reach hit cap? If yes, how?

With all that taken, which gems to take? (normally, if i have answers to previous questions, i will be able to find out myself :-) )

Small questions also about templates. Our two MT are prot heavy, but with quite différent templates. One is focusing on mitigation, the other on reducing special rage cost. What do you find most effective? In the prot tree, are there "must have talents" and "avoid at all cost talents"? For other classes, i know there are "set in stones template", or at least some variant (10/48/3 - 33/28/0 -40/21/0 for mage, 41/0/20 or 0/21/40 for warlocks....). Is there such templates for warriors? What do you balance in the prot tree vs imp TC or Imp DS in arm and fury if this can't be done by another warrior?

Thank you in advance for your answers

- Is there some definitive evidence of crush immunity with shield block requiring 25% block or 25% total avoidance?

Well, I can tell you log all my raiding, in my tanking gear I have around 20% block chance, and when shield block is up, I don't get crushed excepting times where I'm not elligable to block, such as if I take a hit to my back, or I mistime a potion at Maulgar and drink right as he swings.)

- I know that the stam vs avoidance has no definitive answer, but do you have an idea of "sufficient HP" to obtain before going for avoidance? We are currently at gruul, and completing Kara (but not everything on farm status yet).

Health matters for burst damage, but the answer to this question depends on the damage you take (in general the more AC the less health for the same boss to get equal burst survivability.) I'd suggest aiming for around 13k health unbuffed when raiding but more is always better. The right way to decide "overall damage reduction" vs "add more health" is to look at the healing demand for the fight, and the level of risk you are at from the burst damage in the fight. You can't afford to go below the burst-damage threshold (but being above that is even better, since even if you can't get enough health to survive one more hit, if you get enough health to survive part of one hit, it might be the difference in your surviving should you only have single heal land before the next swing.)

- after this HP point, how to maximize avoidance? I have the feeling that defence beyond 490 is overbudgeted, but i can't find the precise figures to prove them that. How do def/dodge/parade ratings compare in terms of avoidance? How do you value block rating and block value to them?

In raiding, block rating is worthless for a warrior. Dodge Rating is slightly better for mitigation than Defense Rating in most situations and both are way better than Parry Rating.

1 Defense Rating (after 490 defense) is 96% as effective as 1 Dodge Rating. 1 Parry Rating is currently 60% as effective as 1 Dodge Rating (but on the test server it is now 75% as effective.)

From a percentage perspective, miss chance (applies all the time) is better than parry chance (slightly decreases the delay to your next attach) which is better than dodge chance.

- Do you try to reach hit cap? If yes, how?

I don't, but if you are having trouble with your tank's threat generation hit rating is one of the best stat upgrades that will help with it (but first make sure they are using a smart rotation of their abilities, it's more likely the cause of trouble for you.)

- With all that taken, which gems to take? (normally, if i have answers to previous questions, i will be able to find out myself :-) )

Unless the socket bonus is really good, Solid Star of Elune. For example, if you had a 2 socket item, with a blue and yellow socket, if the bonus was 4 block rating, put 2 Solid Stars of Elune, if the bonus is +4 stamina I'd probably go with a Enduring Talasite (4 Defense Rating and 6 Stamina.)

- What do you balance in the prot tree vs imp TC or Imp DS in arm and fury if this can't be done by another warrior?

Well, if you are warlock heavy or you have another warrior, then Imp DS is less useful (Improved Curse of Weakness is an equal reduction in attack power, has a longer duration, and doesn't force your warrior to lose time from his threat cycle keeping it active.)

I think you'll find the most common choice for a main tank who can't rely on others to help with this will be a variant of this: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=TV0cZVxzZ0EtoGMzMxst (the points in Improved Sunder Armor and Shield Mastery potentially going elsewhere.)

Personally I for tanking really like variations of a Prot/Arms spec: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=pV0fzZcZ0EtoIMzcest

Since you can parry, dodge and get missed while having shield block active it's pretty safe to say they have priority over block, thus making it just those 27ish total avoidance+block for rendering you immune to crush when shield block is active. Not disputed by anyone who's actually done research, just by people "who's heard it from someone and so on and so forth"

- I know that the stam vs avoidance has no definitive answer, but do you have an idea of "sufficient HP" to obtain before going for avoidance?


I would not try to do this for two reasons:

The first one is, when you underestimate the HP required, your attempts will be over suddenly for no obvious reason at all and you just keep on collecting frustration. If you do not have enough damage reduction you will just run out of healer mana in mid fight and have a sense of improvement with each attempt, as they get progressively longer and closer to the mob dying.

The second one is that you assume you need to survive the damage long enough to be healed and, when this point is reached, all HP in the world will not reduce the mana your healers need to keep you alive. This is far from true. A larger HP buffer allows the healers to use lower ranks of spells, take longer spirit breaks and use the expensive emergency heals less often. All in all this effect is larger than the mana savings due to higher avoidance ratings in all fights, where an awful lot of damage is concentrated on one tank.

So, as a main tank for raids, go for stamina and armor first, avoidance beyond crush/crit immunity is just a bonus. You will not reach really comfortable HP levels anyways.

Well first of all they need to drop all of those non +12 stam gems. Every single one, especially those fucking parry gems. Being at 14.5k while flasked or with commanding/mark is very little HP. Aside from that make sure that both tanks are using clap, demo, (or at least another warrior in the group is) and shield block.

While diosparde is right, that is still a solid profile at 13.3k life and 13.8k armor. The other one has 13.6k life and 14.2k armor but 2% less avoidance (aah, my head, stupid display). That is never ever enough difference to let one die all the time while the other one survives.

SW-Stats has very detailed analysis options that can be used on any character you like. Take a look at incoming damage details, max hits, and skill usage to find differences between your tanks. Also pay attention to the combat log of Ice when he dies.

Thanks, I'll start setting a couple tabs of swstats on the tank to see what it gives me (I usually do dps/healing total/damage total/personal stats).

And neither has improved demo shout. You *are* using another warrior for that, right?

Do you find imp Demo that critical? I can't think of how in the world to make up a decent tanking build with imp demo and imp TC, but maybe I'm missing something critical....

Something else fairly critical is that it looks like Ice is lacking in some enchants- gloves, weapon, ect. As the above posters have said, anything other than 12 stam is just not going to shine- a respec to pick up a point or two of Anticipation to help with the defense hit if needed wouldn't hurt either.

Oh, and don't forget, parry is getting -signficantly- buffed in 2.1. It's still not worth socketing for over Dodge (not that you should really be socketing either), but it's no longer entirely demolished in comparision to the other stats.

What about http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/...30022103231351 ?
You'd be missing out on imp Sunder, imp Bloodrage and a maxxed 1h spec. You could even put the points from imp SW in 1h spec.

I'm actually planning to recommend our MT to spec that build (since we often dont have an imp demo shout tank, and his attendancy is 100% anyway), so remarks are always welcome.

Also -related to Ice his talents-, is there a reason not to take Anticipation? Agreed, defense on items over 490 is better spent on more usefull stats, but is Tactical Mastery really worth loosing out on 12 defense?

ps: sorry for the minor thread hijack, but I think this is relevant enough for you though.

Couldn't it be offset if you have a lock go IMP CoW?