Rugrud

Hello,
I've read the thread i've found here about warriors (especially tanking ones) but i've got some remaining questions i can't answer... My main is a resto chamy, but these question are both for my warrior alt, and because my guild isn't "theorycrafting addicted", so i'm trying to pass them the best of this forum.

For the moment, i've convinced them that:
- They need 490 in def to avoid crit
- They need to keep shield block up to avoid crushes.

But beyond these points, it's a blackhole, we have ramping arguments of stamina vs avoidance, etc.

So here are my questions:
- Is there some definitive evidence of crush immunity with shield block requiring 25% block or 25% total avoidance?
- I know that the stam vs avoidance has no definitive answer, but do you have an idea of "sufficient HP" to obtain before going for avoidance? We are currently at gruul, and completing Kara (but not everything on farm status yet).
- after this HP point, how to maximize avoidance? I have the feeling that defence beyond 490 is overbudgeted, but i can't find the precise figures to prove them that. How do def/dodge/parade ratings compare in terms of avoidance? How do you value block rating and block value to them?
- Do you try to reach hit cap? If yes, how?

With all that taken, which gems to take? (normally, if i have answers to previous questions, i will be able to find out myself :-) )

Small questions also about templates. Our two MT are prot heavy, but with quite différent templates. One is focusing on mitigation, the other on reducing special rage cost. What do you find most effective? In the prot tree, are there "must have talents" and "avoid at all cost talents"? For other classes, i know there are "set in stones template", or at least some variant (10/48/3 - 33/28/0 -40/21/0 for mage, 41/0/20 or 0/21/40 for warlocks....). Is there such templates for warriors? What do you balance in the prot tree vs imp TC or Imp DS in arm and fury if this can't be done by another warrior?

Thank you in advance for your answers

 

zork

against bosses you need 102.4% avoidance to get immune to crushings.
so you need 27.4% total avoidance to get immune with shield block up.
atm there is a bug that, when you use a pot or trinket and your shield is put on your back you won't block anything, even with shield block up.

non 25 man = avoidance
25man = max sta/ac/block value (healers will spam in 25man even if you dodge)
gems = 12sta. always. they are overpowered atm. if your tank has ~60% mitigation from armor that little gem is worth ~260+ health.

template depends on thunderfury. 5/5/51 with TF, 8/5/48 without. but its so much personal.
imp Demoshout cannot reduce enemy dps more that 15% and the normal Demoshout is sth ~11% already. you can check these values against beast and a hunter that is checking the beast skills.
imp TC gives ~10% damage reduction against melee bosses with no specials (gruul)

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Frag

- Is there some definitive evidence of crush immunity with shield block requiring 25% block or 25% total avoidance?

Well, I can tell you log all my raiding, in my tanking gear I have around 20% block chance, and when shield block is up, I don't get crushed excepting times where I'm not elligable to block, such as if I take a hit to my back, or I mistime a potion at Maulgar and drink right as he swings.)

- I know that the stam vs avoidance has no definitive answer, but do you have an idea of "sufficient HP" to obtain before going for avoidance? We are currently at gruul, and completing Kara (but not everything on farm status yet).

Health matters for burst damage, but the answer to this question depends on the damage you take (in general the more AC the less health for the same boss to get equal burst survivability.) I'd suggest aiming for around 13k health unbuffed when raiding but more is always better. The right way to decide "overall damage reduction" vs "add more health" is to look at the healing demand for the fight, and the level of risk you are at from the burst damage in the fight. You can't afford to go below the burst-damage threshold (but being above that is even better, since even if you can't get enough health to survive one more hit, if you get enough health to survive part of one hit, it might be the difference in your surviving should you only have single heal land before the next swing.)

- after this HP point, how to maximize avoidance? I have the feeling that defence beyond 490 is overbudgeted, but i can't find the precise figures to prove them that. How do def/dodge/parade ratings compare in terms of avoidance? How do you value block rating and block value to them?

In raiding, block rating is worthless for a warrior. Dodge Rating is slightly better for mitigation than Defense Rating in most situations and both are way better than Parry Rating.

1 Defense Rating (after 490 defense) is 96% as effective as 1 Dodge Rating. 1 Parry Rating is currently 60% as effective as 1 Dodge Rating (but on the test server it is now 75% as effective.)

From a percentage perspective, miss chance (applies all the time) is better than parry chance (slightly decreases the delay to your next attach) which is better than dodge chance.

- Do you try to reach hit cap? If yes, how?

I don't, but if you are having trouble with your tank's threat generation hit rating is one of the best stat upgrades that will help with it (but first make sure they are using a smart rotation of their abilities, it's more likely the cause of trouble for you.)

- With all that taken, which gems to take? (normally, if i have answers to previous questions, i will be able to find out myself :-) )

Unless the socket bonus is really good, Solid Star of Elune. For example, if you had a 2 socket item, with a blue and yellow socket, if the bonus was 4 block rating, put 2 Solid Stars of Elune, if the bonus is +4 stamina I'd probably go with a Enduring Talasite (4 Defense Rating and 6 Stamina.)

- What do you balance in the prot tree vs imp TC or Imp DS in arm and fury if this can't be done by another warrior?

Well, if you are warlock heavy or you have another warrior, then Imp DS is less useful (Improved Curse of Weakness is an equal reduction in attack power, has a longer duration, and doesn't force your warrior to lose time from his threat cycle keeping it active.)

I think you'll find the most common choice for a main tank who can't rely on others to help with this will be a variant of this: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=TV0cZVxzZ0EtoGMzMxst (the points in Improved Sunder Armor and Shield Mastery potentially going elsewhere.)

Personally I for tanking really like variations of a Prot/Arms spec: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=pV0fzZcZ0EtoIMzcest

 

Punscho

Since you can parry, dodge and get missed while having shield block active it's pretty safe to say they have priority over block, thus making it just those 27ish total avoidance+block for rendering you immune to crush when shield block is active. Not disputed by anyone who's actually done research, just by people "who's heard it from someone and so on and so forth"

 

Arko

- I know that the stam vs avoidance has no definitive answer, but do you have an idea of "sufficient HP" to obtain before going for avoidance?


I would not try to do this for two reasons:

The first one is, when you underestimate the HP required, your attempts will be over suddenly for no obvious reason at all and you just keep on collecting frustration. If you do not have enough damage reduction you will just run out of healer mana in mid fight and have a sense of improvement with each attempt, as they get progressively longer and closer to the mob dying.

The second one is that you assume you need to survive the damage long enough to be healed and, when this point is reached, all HP in the world will not reduce the mana your healers need to keep you alive. This is far from true. A larger HP buffer allows the healers to use lower ranks of spells, take longer spirit breaks and use the expensive emergency heals less often. All in all this effect is larger than the mana savings due to higher avoidance ratings in all fights, where an awful lot of damage is concentrated on one tank.

So, as a main tank for raids, go for stamina and armor first, avoidance beyond crush/crit immunity is just a bonus. You will not reach really comfortable HP levels anyways.

 

Unaz

My guild is having a tanking issue right now, our old main tank (we have a few now, but he's still usually considered the primary one) who used to be rock solid at 60, and is a hardcore "always prot, always pve" warrior - is having serious issues keeping up with our other tanks.

We've got Karazhan and Gruul on farm, and got to about 40% on Mag, usually for lack of warlocks/class mix on the last few times to get a serious attempt past phase 1.

ANYWAY, our tank seems to be having noticable problems staying up, and we want to figure out who's fault it is and what we have to do to change it.

Here's his profile: http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/ch...ol&n=Icesavage

And here's the profile of one of our other main tanks who for whatever reason doesn't seem to consistantly have the same issues:

http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/ch...thol&n=Andzrel

We've all talked about it and can't find what the key difference is, and I'm about to try and find some good way to compare what's going on during the fights to objectively pin it down as well. I mainly use swstats to track myself, but haven't really looked at other mods that may be good for this, like Recap.

Any suggestions as to what Ice could be doing differently, and maybe what addons could help as well?

 

diospadre

Well first of all they need to drop all of those non +12 stam gems. Every single one, especially those fucking parry gems. Being at 14.5k while flasked or with commanding/mark is very little HP. Aside from that make sure that both tanks are using clap, demo, (or at least another warrior in the group is) and shield block.

 

Arko

While diosparde is right, that is still a solid profile at 13.3k life and 13.8k armor. The other one has 13.6k life and 14.2k armor but 2% less avoidance (aah, my head, stupid display). That is never ever enough difference to let one die all the time while the other one survives.

SW-Stats has very detailed analysis options that can be used on any character you like. Take a look at incoming damage details, max hits, and skill usage to find differences between your tanks. Also pay attention to the combat log of Ice when he dies.

 

Unaz

Thanks, I'll start setting a couple tabs of swstats on the tank to see what it gives me (I usually do dps/healing total/damage total/personal stats).

 

• Tharas

If you are putting either one "on an island" (i.e. Maulgar tanking), the difference between TC and Imp TC could be considerable (Andzrel has it, Ice does not).

 

Arko

And neither has improved demo shout. You *are* using another warrior for that, right?

 

◊ Oggie

Do you find imp Demo that critical? I can't think of how in the world to make up a decent tanking build with imp demo and imp TC, but maybe I'm missing something critical....

Something else fairly critical is that it looks like Ice is lacking in some enchants- gloves, weapon, ect. As the above posters have said, anything other than 12 stam is just not going to shine- a respec to pick up a point or two of Anticipation to help with the defense hit if needed wouldn't hurt either.

Oh, and don't forget, parry is getting -signficantly- buffed in 2.1. It's still not worth socketing for over Dodge (not that you should really be socketing either), but it's no longer entirely demolished in comparision to the other stats.

 

vorda

What about http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/...30022103231351 ?
You'd be missing out on imp Sunder, imp Bloodrage and a maxxed 1h spec. You could even put the points from imp SW in 1h spec.

I'm actually planning to recommend our MT to spec that build (since we often dont have an imp demo shout tank, and his attendancy is 100% anyway), so remarks are always welcome.

Also -related to Ice his talents-, is there a reason not to take Anticipation? Agreed, defense on items over 490 is better spent on more usefull stats, but is Tactical Mastery really worth loosing out on 12 defense?

ps: sorry for the minor thread hijack, but I think this is relevant enough for you though.

 

◊ Oggie

For some reason I can't look at that build- continious errors- so is it close to this one: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=TV0cZVxZbEtoh0dcxst

It really feels like you're giving up a lot of rage efficency for imp Demo though...you could possibly pull 2-3 out of Anticipation and snag imp HS or imp Sunder, but frankly I'm crazy about Anticipation. It does not provide near the benifit point for point of Deflection, but the gearing freedom is immense.

I really do want to restate my question though- do you guys feel imp demo is that vital?

 

Alexmeria2

Couldn't it be offset if you have a lock go IMP CoW?

 

Unaz

We do have a Fury warrior that's usually there now that he's geared up a bit, but I'm not sure if they specifically stack for it.

http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/ch...hol&n=Khadarim

For gruul we usually have a druid and warrior for the two tanks, and my group is usually myself (enhancement shaman), 3 rogues, and a dps warrior.

AND after looking at his talents, he doesn't even have imp demo shout. :argh: May have to browbeat him into that one as he's our only Fury warrior at the moment I believe.

 

Surion

Most Fury warriors will not spec for it, unless they know its needed, as it isnt very optimal for us. An MS warrior is much more likely to have it. It makes a sad Fury to lose Unbridled Wrath, but if you talk with him, he shouldn't have a problem picking it up.

 

Surion

Yes, that is what we usually have instead of Demo Shout.

 

Taliafears

I've found that imp demo and imp TC make a huge difference. I believe the theory crafting puts imp DS at ~23% dmg reduction and normal DS at ~16%? Not sure that those numbers are accurate for lvl 70 but I can say from experience that I definitely noticed the difference when I specced into imp demo (already had imp TC). We don't have any fury warriors so it's the only way to go for me.

My spec now is similar to the one Oggie posted, but I take imp def. stance instead of vitality. I'm uncertain about it but it just seems that less healing load from magic damage is better than, at best, 300hp. By the time I've taken enough magic damage to kill me, imp. def. stance has stopped at least 780hp worth of damage.

 

cebaikia

I have 12.8k unbuffed n healers can keep me up pretty. I feel i lack stm too but i'm just pointing out with that stm my healers did not have a problem havin me up.


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Darkmgl

Are you also aware of what potions these two warriors use? Is one of them using ironshields and major defense elixirs while the other is just using stoneshields.... Are you sure he doesn't miss shield blocks and such; since damage incoming has gone up so much tanking effectively has gotten harder. One warrior may be able to react faster with his safety powers, do you often see one tank saving himself with a shield wall or a last stand and another dying more?

I don't knock mitigation anymore, it builds upon itself. With imp demo/imp curse, imp thunderclap, shadow embrace, stoneshields/insp and a high block value you will knock mobs who may whack an unpotted tank for 6k down into the 2s...

Armor/Sta/Block Value means way more then avoidance, avoidance just ruins rage intake. Really its only there to allow shield block to remain up for long enough to prevent all crushes. Get up to 13.5k unbuffed hps with like 14500+ unbuffed armor and you wont even need flasks, and not even stoneshields if you have good healers on Mag. Just debuff the living daylights outta his damage and focus armor buffs onto your MT.

 

◊ Kaubel

Look at the posts immediately above and below yours. Do they have "i" or "n" anywhere that you can see? That's because those aren't words. Now I realize you're new here, but you'll need to post intelligently if you want your stay here to be long and prosperous.

That'll be $3.57, please pull up to the second window.

 

Branar

Along this line, the buff to items with "bonus" armor on them (i.e. items where part of their item budget is actually allocated to armor) should be a nice perk to everyone in the coming patch. Stuff like Gilded Thoriumweave/Heroic badges cloak/Shermanar Great-Ring/Exalted VE tanking signet (heck, even Felsteel helm, though with the bumps to purples you probably don't want your tanks wearing that for much longer) will get a nice upgrade, and if you're wearing a few of these items your armor should definitely go up a noticeable amount.

Of course, it's nothing to what bare durids get from it, but it's still very good, and makes armor even more valuable (since it effectively costs less to stack).

 

Vohbo

It's really too bad that block rating is so incredibly weak and yet our items sometimes drown in it. Perhaps when we can reach a base total evasion of higher than 85 % block rating will be somewhat useful, but at the moment it's a complete waste, and I doubt Blizzard has any intention on changing it soon.

If you do choose, for some mysterious reason, to stack avoidance on your gear, I think defense is the most effective way to go, simply because it allows you to switch in resist gear while staying crit immune. The difference in total evasion between def and dodge rating are small. For example on a gem, you would get either:
8 defense = 3.37 defense skill = 0.4 % evasion (and some irrelevant block rating)
8 dodge = 0.42 % dodge
alternatively you can use agility:
8 agility = 0.26 % dodge, 16 armor, 0.24 % crit

So, in short: if you really feel you need more avoidance, defense is the best option even beyond 490. The thing is that at this very moment, you should stack stamina as high as you can since mobs just hit extremely hard and use magic attacks in addition to heavy melee.
Evasion is good for making you less vulnerable to crushing blows, but you should have enough without sacrificing stamina.

 

Branar

Actually, there was a thread on this forum in which someone claimed to have total block + evasion of >85%, and pushing over 100% with appropriate buffs (as I recall it was just normal buffs - kings, motw, etc. plus a Grace of Air totem to push him over). His armory profile supported his case. For the life of me, I can't remember which tanking thread it was in.

As I recall he was wearing a mix of tier4/tier5 (and equivalent) stuff and had a lot of def/dodge gems socketed, but it's probably not as far off as you might think.

With that said, I think it's a crappy way to take things (which makes it even more sad that block rating has no use outside of that possibility). "Grats, now using Shield Block is useless for you!"

They should just stop putting block rating on every single piece of tanking gear with block VALUE (a very strong warrior stat) out there. I understand it's great for paladins, and there should be enough of it that it doesn't hurt paladin tanking viability to get it (heck, take off the mp5/int on their tanking tier sets that they hate so much and replace it with block rating). There are only a few items in the game with block value but no block rating on them, and only two off the top of my head (Vambraces of Courage, heroic badge tanking cloak) are even remotely good enough to be choices for raid tanking.