i use dragonspine and drake fang talisman as my 2 trinkets. which should i replace if i get the warp-spring coil or just keep the 2 i have and wait for something else?
Has anyone done some testing or math on comparing haste rating effects to armor reduction effects? The quandry I find myself in is that I picked up the WSC last night, but I'm not sure if I should replace my Abacus with this.
The hit rating is certainly valuable I know, if I haven't already capped hit rating. However, sans-trinket I'm currently sitting at 305 hit rating, so the +21 isn't necessarily valuable as I can pick up 3 hit rating just about anywhere.
Looking forward in the spreadsheet and into the loot tables it appears at some point we have to choose between haste and minus armor on some pieces and I'm wondering about how much X armor reduction would be equivalent to Y haste rating. Maybe this isn't even possible to know with varying armor values of boss mobs, but I need someone better with math to know for sure.
Has anyone done some testing or math on comparing haste rating effects to armor reduction effects? The quandry I find myself in is that I picked up the WSC last night, but I'm not sure if I should replace my Abacus with this.
The hit rating is certainly valuable I know, if I haven't already capped hit rating. However, sans-trinket I'm currently sitting at 305 hit rating, so the +21 isn't necessarily valuable as I can pick up 3 hit rating just about anywhere.
Looking at your Armory gearset... couldn't you just replace some of your +hit gems with +crit or +crit/AP gems, and thus get the full use out of the trinket? The shoulders or (especially) the bracer come to mind; if you replaced the current +8 Hit Gem in the bracers in favor of a Purple or Green gem you'd gain 4 AP, 4 Crit/8 AP and 6 STA. Dawnstones are also dirt cheap, at least on my server, so just replacing a few of those with +Crit gems instead would be inexpensive and work nicely.
Looking at your Armory gearset... couldn't you just replace some of your +hit gems with +crit or +crit/AP gems, and thus get the full use out of the trinket? The shoulders or (especially) the bracer come to mind; if you replaced the current +8 Hit Gem in the bracers in favor of a Purple or Green gem you'd gain 4 AP, 4 Crit/8 AP and 6 STA. Dawnstones are also dirt cheap, at least on my server, so just replacing a few of those with +Crit gems instead would be inexpensive and work nicely.
Yea I can resocket and that isn't any trouble at all. My crit rating is somewhat embarrasing as is and I was thinking of tossing in some +8 crits to the Bladed shoulders. But I'm still curious to know if anyone has come up with a passive haste vs. passive armor reduct comparison.
So from that it's pretty easy to see that if your target has a large amount of armor, a small amount of armor reduction is going to do relatively little to increase your damage. However if your target has a small amount of armor, a small amount of armor reduction is going to do relatively more to increase your damage. To sum it up, the more armor reduction you have...the higher value it is in terms of increasing your damage, that is until you hit the point where your armor reduction hits your target's armor rating...at that point any more becomes useless.
Last edited by falynx : 08/14/07 at 5:21 PM.
Reason: typo
That's not quite true... Say your target has 16k armor, and that represents a 60% decrease in incoming damage. Your average hit against this target does, say, 100 damage. The target has 10k hp.
You will need to hit him 100 times to kill him right? Say that takes 100 seconds.
Let's say you have 1000 armor reduction, which brings his incoming reduction down to 58%. Now you're hitting for 105 and it takes you 95 hits to kill him, or 95 seconds in our little world here.
Now let's see what the difference in kill time is for a target with 10k health but only 5k armor. Damage reduction is about 33%, so it takes you 59.7 seconds to kill the mob.
With armor reduction, he has 4k armor, or about 27% mitigation. 54.8 seconds to kill him
now.
These are just eyeballed values, but note that the actual time spent dps'ing is 5 seconds less in each case *even* *though* the damage reduction in the first case was only 2%, while in the second case it was 6%.
Tanks learned this a while ago. That armor reduction will knock off a flat number of seconds from your kill time, regardless of how much armor the target has. Yes, it will affect your DPS numbers more on low-armor targets, but actual time-to-kill is affected by the same amount regardless of the targets armor. So saying that it is worthless when your target has tons of armor is not true.
These are just eyeballed values, but note that the actual time spent dps'ing is 5 seconds less in each case *even* *though* the damage reduction in the first case was only 2%, while in the second case it was 6%.
I've seen this kind of reasoning before and it's never made any sense to me at all. On a target that dies quickly a 5 sec difference is big but on a target that dies slowly a 5 sec difference is small.
What we are trying to compare is the relative dps increases from different stats, why should we suddenly switch away from DPS and start using some kind of "time to kill" metric instead? The whole point is that armour penetration scales differently compared to targets armour than other stats do, this does not change if we measure in a virtual "TTK" instead of DPS. All the computations in the world doesn't help if what you're computing is meaningless.
Relative to other stats penetration is worth less on high armour targets and more on low armour targets, end of story.
Yeh precisely, on the first target your dps went from 100 to 105.3 and on the 2nd target your dps went from 167.5 to 182.5, so you gain much more dps against the lower armoured target.
What we are trying to compare is the relative dps increases from different stats, why should we suddenly switch away from DPS and start using some kind of "time to kill" metric instead? The whole point is that armour penetration scales differently compared to targets armour than other stats do, this does not change if we measure in a virtual "TTK" instead of DPS. All the computations in the world doesn't help if what you're computing is meaningless.
The only reason we care about DPS is because the higher our DPS, the less time it takes to kill our target. Yeah, targets with naturally low armor will die faster than targets with naturally high armor - this is true regardless of how much armor penetration we have. But even though, with 1k armor penetration, you only gain 5 dps on the higher armored target vs 15 on the lower, it still translates to 5 seconds less dps time for both.
Anyway, now for the real reason I'm here. I know this trinket can proc off poison procs, including resisted ones. What I don't know is if it can proc off poisons that shoot back the immune message (like on Hydross). Anyone know?
In case anyone is unsure about the resist thing, here's an SSC log from tonight: At 4:08'35.703 I believe a Deadly Poison resist procced it. Also at 4:17'42.718 an Instant Poison hit procced it, but I think you all already knew that could happen.
The only reason we care about DPS is because the higher our DPS, the less time it takes to kill our target. Yeah, targets with naturally low armor will die faster than targets with naturally high armor - this is true regardless of how much armor penetration we have. But even though, with 1k armor penetration, you only gain 5 dps on the higher armored target vs 15 on the lower, it still translates to 5 seconds less dps time for both.
Assuming, of course, that you're the only one DPSing it. Which you're not. Also, I would argue that decreasing a fight that's 3 minutes long by 5 seconds is more significant that reducing a fight that's 10 minutes long by 5 seconds. So DPS really would seem to be the better measure.
Anyway, now for the real reason I'm here. I know this trinket can proc off poison procs, including resisted ones. What I don't know is if it can proc off poisons that shoot back the immune message (like on Hydross). Anyone know?
In case anyone is unsure about the resist thing, here's an SSC log from tonight: At 4:08'35.703 I believe a Deadly Poison resist procced it. Also at 4:17'42.718 an Instant Poison hit procced it, but I think you all already knew that could happen.
I would argue that the first one could equally well be procced by the SS at 4:08'34.968. I'd be very surprised if resists can proc, and even more surprised if immunes can proc.
Edit: And, for that matter, I seriously question whether poison can proc WSC at all. I just autoattacked a blasted lands mob with Instant Poison up for a bit, and 58 instant poison procs produced no WSC procs. So either I just witnessed a 1 in a billion fluke, or Instant Poison can't proc WSC.
Weird. That wasn't the first time I had seen what I thought was poison proccing the trinket, and it made sense to me since the yellow Sword Spec attacks were. Chalk it up to lag I guess.
Oh well.
And yeah, 5 seconds isn't a big deal, but you're probably looking at a greater time reduction as hp levels increase. In our fictional scenario, a target with a million hp gives you a 477 second reduction. Ofc, as you said, that is assuming you are the only one dpsing.
But it's all kind of moot. It's still a good trinket regardless.
Did they change the internal cooldown? I just got this thing tonight and was looking at my WWS report. In one fight (Hydross) it says "Perceived Weakness" procced 21 times, but the fight lasted a total of 8 minutes and 38 seconds. With a 30 second cooldown (timed from proc to proc) the theoretical max would be 18 procs. (On Solarian the figures were in line with a 30 second cooldown.)
Using Dragonspine Trophy and Warp-Spring Coil now, i had warp-spring in bank for some weeks and was using Bloodlust Brooch instead of it, but then i read some discussion about WSC here and tested the WSC, had to change some gems to not go over hit cap, but it was worth it. I'd say Dragonspine Trophy and WSC are the best trinkets at t5 lvl. I have no clue how Madness ofthe Betrayer competes against the 2, but it's a nice trinket aswell for sure. Tbh i would NEVER use Tsunami Talisman over WSC and Dragonspine... Only 10 hit rating and rest is crit. Hit close to cap>ap>crit imho.
Anyways has anyone tested Madness of the Betrayer against WSC and Dragonspine? Or has anyone tested Dragonspine on PTR after they changed the haste?
08/10/07, 9:49 AM
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