• Aldriana

Note: If you download this sheet, and something isn't working the way you expect, please read the FAQ section below before posting a question about it. Many of the questions that get asked in this thread are already answered below.

Version 0.10.4, 7/24/08: Download

FAQ

Q: When will this item/buff/effect/feature/whatever be added to the sheet?
A: I don't know, so don't even bother asking. It may surprise you to learn that I don't get paid to support this, and as such things like "my job" take precedence (as do things like "raiding"). Thus, there is no regular schedule for updates or when things get done. I will add them when I have time, and no amount of asking will change when that happens. Though it might annoy me.

That said: it's fine to point out an item that's recently been added to the game; however, if you're going to do so, *please* read over the last couple of pages and make sure it hasn't been noted already. People in this forum are remarkably on top of these things, so if you come by a week after the item was added and mention that it's not on the sheet, I can guarantee you that it's already been mentioned.

Q: I have a comment/question/concern to express to you, what's the best way of doing so?
A: If it's of broader interest to the community, this thread is fine. If it's something pretty specific, I recommend PM. If it's something that can't be handled in either of these formats, you can try to find me in game, but the amount of hours a week that I'm logged on and not actively engaged in some activity is pretty small, and I'm not about to interrupt a BT raid to talk to you. So you'll generally have better luck - and get better answers - corresponding via the forums than you will in-game.

Q: Why is the socket bonus for item X not working?
A: It is working. This is a common misconception/point of confusion. Column F on the front page does not speak to whether the set bonus *is* active; rather, it refers to whether you *should* be using the socket bonus. Note that this recommendation does not include metagem activation, so take its recommendations with a grain of salt.

Q: The "recommended cycle" is showing 3.3s/5r (or something like that), how the heck do I do a 3.3 point slice and dice?
A: You don't. For smoothness-of-modeling reasons, this sheet uses continuously defined cycles. In practice, of course, you can't do a 3.3 point SnD. However, you can weave 3 and 4 point SnDs if you're good (although the mechanics of this is tricky). If you want to be lazy about this, just use the next larger SnD (4-point, in this case) or the next smaller rupture (i.e., 1s3.5r becomes 1s3r). If you want to be fancy, go ahead and weave.

Q: Speaking of 1s3.5r - I'm a dagger rogue with 2/5 T4, and the sheet is recommending a 1s3.Xr cycle. OMGWTFBBQ?
A: For a full discussion of this I recommend taking a peek at post 532, but the short answer is: using a longer SnD doesn't actually let you use a larger rupture; the extra energy you regenerate during the extra SnD uptime is almost identical to the amount of energy required to launch the extra backstab and get the extra combo point. Hence, if you can support 5s3r, you can most likely support 1s3r, which gives you almost double the rupture damage in exchange for a slight loss in number of backstabs, and, in practice, this tends to be a worthwhile tradeoff. So if you're able to sustain 1s3r as a dagger rogue (which basically necessitates 2/5 T4) it tends to be a good choice.

Q: This sheet gives different answers than the Rogue DPS sheet for the value of item/buff/talent point/whatever X. What gives?
A: At the risk of sounding like an ass: because this sheet is right and the other is wrong.

To expand on that a bit: there are a number of modeling differences between this and the Rogue DPS sheet, so they will frequently generate different answers for the value of various pieces of gear. Thus, they disagree because one is more accurately modeling the effect than the other. As a general rule, I'm of the opinion that the accuracy of this sheet is higher (although I may be biased - if I didn't believe that, I wouldn't have bothered creating this sheet.) Ultimately, it's a matter of which sheet you trust more, and that you need to decide for yourself.

Q: If I have item A equipped, it shows item B as being better, but if I switch to item B, it shows item A as being better. What gives?
A: The item evaluations in this sheet are based off your current gear; hence, if you change what you have equipped, the relative value of other items can change; hence, loops like the one described do arise when two items are very close in overall quality. As such, any item difference less than 5 AP or so should be taken with a grain of salt; it's hard to resolve differences on that scale. If, however, you are serious about knowing which has higher damage output, you can take a look at the "Rough DPS Estimate" cell to see which produces a higher value.

Q: Why does the "current hit" box disagree with the armory?
A: "Current Hit" includes any buffs you may have, and the default buffs include Spicy Hot Talbuk. Hence, if you haven't changed the buffs, the sheet should report 20 hit more than the armory. If it is still off, I would doublecheck your gems.

Questions from previous versions

Q: What does "Optimal Hit" mean?
A: Optimal Hit reflects the amount of hit rating if you socketed and enchanted your current gear optimally. For exactly what is considered to be optimal for you, consult the middle gear column. Optimal Hit *doesn't* have anything to do with the hit cap - is just an indication of how much hit you'd have if you socketed according to the recommendations in the middle column. This is primarily intended as a warning mechanism, as, in general, "optimal" involves socketing stuff with a whole lot of +8 hit gems, which will frequently put you over the hit cap - the Optimal Hit number is designed to warn you about this so you know not to socket so overwhelmingly with hit.

Attached Files

Rogue_Gear_0_10_4.xls (3.84 MB, 2018 views)

 

• astearns

One thing I do with the original spreadsheet is for some armor slot sheets I add in a column of calculations based on the AEP numbers from the Talent sheet. This gives me comparative numbers for a whole slot's worth of gear that's similar to your "Total" column. I can't speak to the differences in your sheet's combat calculations, but I think your first point can be addressed in the original spreadsheet.

 

• Aldriana

Agreed; some of this can be done. However, the next-stat computations in the rogue dps spreadsheet are sort of patched on - they don't run through the computation path as the actual damage calculations. And some effects (Mongoose, for instance) aren't addressed by the next-stat computations at all - there's no easy way to compare the value of Mongoose to the value of some other stat. Many set bonuses can't be equated to next-stat computations. At the end of the day: yes, it can be hacked to do approximations of item quality in many cases - but it's not what it was designed to do. My goal is to write a spreadsheet where that *is* what it's designed to do.

As another example - consider Dragonspine Trophy. Right now it's being modeled in the Rogue DPS spreadsheet as a static 40 AP and 120 haste rating, when in reality the proc mechanic is far more complex - but there's just no easy way to implement that in the original spreadsheet (or at least, no one has done it yet). This spreadsheet actually models it as a proc - and, resultingly, gets some significantly different - and interesting - results... namely, that equipping Dragonspine Trophy *dramatically* increases the value of hit rating, which is a subtlety that the other spreadsheet doesn't pick up on.

As I say: I'm not arguing that the other spreadsheet doesn't have it's place - but I think it's more of a shotgun solution to question of rogue dps. It will tell you where in general terms the answer lies, but it's unable to model some of the subtleties introduced by high-end itemization. It is my intention here to right a scalpel rather than a shotgun, so one can really delve into the fine points of high-end itemization and figure out the best possible way of getting to the top.

 

Gogge

You seem to be using the 0.04% per wskill for crit. Given the likely +0.1% effect to hit and the 2.01 patch notes saying "The player will gain 0.1% to their critical strike rating per weapon skill" wouldn't it seem probable that it's also +0.1%?

 

• Aldriana

So, the character screen (which may or may not be accurate, but that's a separate issue) actually displays .04% crit per point of weapon skill - so that's what I put in. Now, the patch notes assert that against higher-level mobs, you get more (the .1% to which you refer) - but I haven't really seen any external confirmation of that, so left it out for the moment. It would certainly be easy enough to change if the community decides that it is likely correct.

 

• Aldriana

Updated to version 0.2, available at http://www.savefile.com/files/724337

Changes:

Dagger modeling added.
Most set bonuses implemented.
Assorted bugs fixed
Deadly poison model added.
New items found on test added.
Latest round of item updates from test added.

 

◊ Shaker

Ald - very nice, going to take some time to play around with this week. I especially like the idea of 'defense' ratings for gear, as that is .. (rarely, but sometimes) a concern.

 

LiteSabre

Some questions, if you don't mind.

Played around with it a bit, showed some very different results when compared to the spreadsheet, namely: as your haste ratings go up, the value of +hit skyrockets. Particularly noticeable when changing from, say, DST+Abacus and Thundering Skyfire to something like Hourglass+Romeo's and Swift Skyfire. Is the Thundering Skyfire supposed to be that imba compared to the other meta gems? :P

Another difference I noticed was the marked difference in the Netherblade 2/5's DPS value in your sheet compared to the DPS spreadsheet. Does it really add that little?

And I take it that the 'sword' cell block in the armor sheet is supposed to mean 'offense'?

 

• Aldriana

So, addressing this set in reverse order: I have no actual data on the proc rate of TSD, so I estimated it as 1 PPM. Whether this is even remotely close to correct, I have no idea; I've been unable to get ahold of one. So it is possible that that value is somewhat inflated.

That said: Haste is really dang powerful, so it almost certainly *is* the best metagem. However, if the proc rate turns out to be lower, it won't be first by so ridiculously much.

As for the increase of the value of hit rating: it is certainly possible that I made a mistake in my calculations somewhere - if someone would like to review the calculation sheets and make sure they're sensible, I'd greatly appreciate it. However, the answer is plausible to me. Why? Well, first, the more haste you have, the more white damage you're doing, so it's certainly plausible that that's going to increase the value of hit. However, I think the larger effect is: Dragonspine (and TSD, as modeled) are HUGELY powerful procs, and if you have one (or both) on your gear, you gain significant amounts of dps just by proccing them more - hence it becomes of crucial importance to hit as often as possible, to get procs as often as possible. This feedback mechanism - more hit gives more procs gives more haste - isn't modeled at all in the dps spreadsheet. Both TSD and Dragonspine are modeled with a flat amount of +haste. So my explanation would be: powerful procs give a significant boost to the value of hit, which is not modeled correctly in the other spreadsheet due to the constraints on it's construction - it is this sort of behavior that is the exact reason I made this spreadsheet.

...either that, or I messed up. Time will tell.

Short answer: um, apparently so...

Long answer: the dagger model makes spectacularly inefficient use of the extra SnD uptime (because it's always using 5/5/3 and wasting any extra SnD uptime), so it probably *does* undervalue Netherblade 2/5. I haven't figured out how the dagger cycle should change with increased energy regen/longer SnD uptime/similar effects - it just always uses 5/5/3

Now, the sword cycle actually does modify the cycle - it's doing Xs/5r, and computing the optimal X, so the 2/5 bonus is dropping it from ~3s/5r to 1s/5r. Thing is, most of what that buys you is increased rupture uptime, which isn't a huge dps upgrade - if you look at the 1s/5r, 2s/5r, and 3s/5r cycles in the dps spreadsheet, they're really pretty close in terms of damage output. So my argument would be: for swords, yes, it really is worth that little.

Yeah. I'll fix it in the next release. I was originally gonna have separate sword and dagger column, but I decided it was more elegant to have a single "offense" column that would display the offense numbers for whichever type of weapon you have MH.

 

Lukon

I have been using a spreadsheet of my own along the same lines: tailored to common combat swords builds. Recently my results have been straying from those of Pf's spreadsheet, so its good to have another viewpoint to compare with.

The NextStat output is quite similar to the values I have been getting, especially for hit rating. It did seem to jump up a heap (to 2.82) when I added Windfury. Has it been confirmed that windfury causes procs?

I did a "close up" to see exactly where the benefits of +hit come from:

 

◊ Shaker

Quick question on usage in the gems sheet: do we put the # of that type of gem that we have, or simply a "1" for "I use these in all sockets of this color"?

 

Darlal

Would you mind if I threw together a front page that made equipment selection a bit easier? I already did it so that I could test some of your numbers, but I will keep it to myself if you'd like.

I'd also find this to be much more helpful if it had some predictive functions.

I'd like to see:

a) relative value of stats based on current equipment (to help pick enchants/gems)
b)ranked list of possible upgrades for specific slots (user chooses)
c)optimal gear composition based on a set of possibilities

with these three things I think this spreadsheet could really add something that the dps calculator is used to do, but does very poorly/clunkily.

I'd be happy to help put any of these things together, but I'd like your permission before I do anything beyond make changes for my own personal use.

 

• Aldriana

Well, that's reassuring - another set of calculations that give similar answers certainly increases my confidence that I didn't screw things up too badly.

That said, we are a fair bit off in terms of the value of crit, so I was looking at that a bit, and I noticed that your numbers aren't self-consistant... you sure that crit number is right? Consider: It takes 22.077 crit rating for 1% crit, so by your numbers 1% crit is worth 22.077*1.74 = 38.41 AP. 40 points of agi also give 1% crit, so the crit on agi is worth 38.41/40 = .96 AP. Since agi also gives 1 point of AP, the value of a point of agility is then 1.96 AP. However, 1 point of agi on gear actually gives 1.12 real agi (due to kings and vitality), so the total value for a point of agi on gear is 1.12*1.96 = 2.2 AP, which is significantly higher than the 2.13 value you reported.

Put a 1, for "I use these in all sockets of this color". As I mentioned in the known bugs list, my socketing model is all but nonexistant. It is something I'd like to improve, but I don't have a good idea of how to do so. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

 

Darlal

The more I go through this the more I feel that you'll be better served in the long run by switching to a more flexible data structure.

For instance, Enchants:

Currently you store the enchant slot type (head, gloves, bracer) in the name of the enchant. You would do better by simply listing all the enchants and having a second column for slot type.

This same approach will help with weapons (should have a weapon type column) and most of the other sheets.

 

• Aldriana

If you'd like to clean up the UI, that would be fantastic; I've known since about the 2nd day I started working on this sheet that it desparately needed a new UI, but I'm a relative Excel novice so had to settle for strictly functional to start with. The changes you propose defenitely sounds like they would help.e pie

With regards to your point c in particular, I think the ideal would be to have a column in the gear sheets that marks where the given item drops, and then generate a "largest upgrades from each location" chart somewhere - i.e., "these are the largest upgrades from heroics", "these are the largest upgrades from karazhan" and so on - then you could just look at which instances are available to you (given current guild progression) and figure out your priority list. In a totally ideal world it might even specify which boss within the instance drops it, although that might be fancier than is needed.

I think the talents could also use drop-down boxes to specify your current build rather than the current "fill in a number" system - and, honestly, replacing the "put a 1 in this column if you have it" mechanic with checkboxes might be a good idea too.

Also, there are some paramaters that are currently hard-coded that could probably use a selection screen somewhere, notably:

*Character Race (currently hardcoded to NE)
*Boss Armor Value (currently hardcoded to 5k)
*Offense-to-Defense ratio (i.e., how much effective stamina is worth relative to effective AP - it's currently hardcoded to 1 sta = .6 AP, but that should ultimately be tweakable so people who want more or less stamina can do so)
*Avoidable and Mitigable attacks (from the defense sheet; what portion of attacks coming at you can be avoided (dodged) or mitigated (via armor). I made up numbers, but it might be worth making those adjustable.)

Another thing that would be worth having is a display somewhere that indicates if the current gear input is over the hit cap, and by how much; I specifically coded the sheet so that it doesn't immediately drop the score of all your gear with hit rating just because you're at the hit cap; but because of this, you can't easily tell if you're above the hit cap. As such, there probably should be a warning button for it.

For that matter, having a display that indicates what cycle it is using for combat swords would probably make sense.

Basically, in needs a summary screen at the front that gives easy access to most important features and information, such that people don't need to much around in the bowels of the sheet to get useful information out of the sheet.

...I just realized I named off an awful lot of features that I'd like to see. Don't feel obligated to do all this - I'm just sort of making a wish list. But any help you (or anyone) wishes to provide with improving the usability of the sheet would be appreciated, as if you wait for me to figure out enough Excel to get it running, you're gonna be in for a long wait .

 

Darlal

Thankfully I know my way around Excel fairly well. I've already finished the dropdowns for the gear and the talent points (did that first thing so I could see what was happening). PM me an e-mail so I can send you updates.

 

• Aldriana

I guess I'm not quite seeing what this buys you; I did it this way because I felt it was the clearest way to select what enchant you were using in what slot, and getting an immediate comparison to other enchants available in that slot. I'm not really seeing what you could do with the changed structure that you can't do right now.

Yes; a weapon type column would be a good idea; you'll note that the current means of weapon determination is a total hack. This would be particularly important for when I get around to implementing the case where MH and OH weapons aren't necessarily the same type (which is assumed right now).

 

◊ Shaker

I think using the # of specific gems would be best, and a field next to each item that says "Enable the Socket bonus for this item".

 

• Aldriana

Actually, I think the ideal would be to have a drop-down menu for each socket allowing you to select the socketing for that item, and then have it automatically detect whether the socket bonus should be active. The challenging part is finding a place to store the socket bonus information; right now it's just lumped in with the other stats of the item. You'd need some field or set of fields somewhere that describes the socket bonus information, which is then added in if the socketing matches... I just haven't figure out a good way of organizing this.

 

Darlal

I'm currently adding socet sensitive dropdowns. I'll look at adding socket bonuses after I get this done.

edit: Dropsdowns are done, I'm adding columns for each color so that gems can be counted by color (red, yellow, blue, meta). This will allow for the addition of multi-colored gems.

 

Lukon

At the time I had vitality disabled. So 2.13 ap/agi would become 2.17. Also, I am using 41 agi per 1% crit (I estimated this value from character sheet tooltips). That gives:

Agi = 1.12 (AP) + 1.12 (crit) crit rating/agility = 1.12 + 1.12 * 1.74 * 22.01 / 41 = 2.17

 

• Aldriana