Rogue Gear Spreadsheet - Page 10

Trazhenko · 06/08/07, 2:44 PM

Originally Posted by Nock

*gear list*
Given that, the sheet tells me that I should go from my 308 hit down to 252 by replacing every Rigid Dawnstone with a Bright Living Ruby because the Dawnstone is currenly worth 15.24 APE vs. the Ruby's 16 APE. We all should know that I would be a fool to replace all of my Dawnstones and go away from the Hit Cap, but the sheet thinks I would do more damage by doing so.

The problem here is that the AP values of the gems are based off of your current total stats. All the sheet is telling you is that you have geared your hit beyond the point where 1 HR is better than 2 AP, given your resulting total AP.

As soon as you change *one* Rigid Dawnstone to a bright ruby, the value of every rigid dawnstone will rise to more than 15.24.

If you just replace them one at a time, and watch the value of rigid dawnstone each time you switch one, you should reach a point where rigid dawnstone is almost exactly 16. That's where you stop.

If you replace them all, you will probably see it recommending that you change them back, because a Rigid Dawnstone will be worth more than 16 AP at that point.

• Aldriana · 06/08/07, 2:44 PM

Originally Posted by Nock

Given that, the sheet tells me that I should go from my 308 hit down to 252 by replacing every Rigid Dawnstone with a Bright Living Ruby because the Dawnstone is currenly worth 15.24 APE vs. the Ruby's 16 APE. We all should know that I would be a fool to replace all of my Dawnstones and go away from the Hit Cap, but the sheet thinks I would do more damage by doing so. Sure, it might only be the difference of a 7 APE change if I did it, but at this point a Netherblade Chestpiece is a 7 APE upgrade for me. Also since the value of some items are based around the fact that they have sockets, and the way you socket them is what makes them truely worthwhile, this is certainly important.

What buffs do you have selected? Unbuffed (or with few AP buffs), 16 AP gems do frequently add more damage than 8 hit. However, with battle shout, blessing of might, poisons/windfury, etc. the value of hit increases significantly.

• Aldriana · 06/08/07, 3:15 PM

Okay, I found the problem. There's an error in cell B70 of the sword calcs page. It currently reads

"=(1-(1-(B17/60)*B68)^15)*IF(MHEnchantEQ="mongoose (mh) (mh)",1,0)"

Delete one of the (mh) so it instead reads

"=(1-(1-(B17/60)*B68)^15)*IF(MHEnchantEQ="mongoose (mh)",1,0)"

and the value of hit should bounce back up to something reasonable.

This fix will be in 0.6.2 which we'll try to get out today. Unfortunately, if it doesn't happen today it might not happen until Monday, since I'm moving this weekend and will thus not have much time to work on this.

• Aldriana · 06/08/07, 3:28 PM

...and I just found two other fairly significant bugs as well. I'll get them fixed as soon as I can.

Re: other comments in the past few pages:

Originally Posted by Xizenta

Aldriana, my data seems to suggest that no sundered boss has 5000 armor, but this is the value used in the spreadsheet.

Have you seen any data that would lead you to make this number the standard? I kicked some bosses in ssc tonight with a 5 point expose armor up and only had 17% damage mitigation.

There was some data in the Rogue DPS spreadsheet thread that indicated that most bosses were around 7k-8k unsundered, which would put them at about 5k sundered. I also did some tests myself - kicked a 5x-sundered Tidewalker, as I recall. I will doublecheck it tonight, but I'm pretty sure it's a reasonable ballpark figure.

Originally Posted by Karmon

Some more errors in 0.6.1
Daggersskill seems not to affect MH Crit%/OH Crit% in the dagger calc sheet.

Good catch, I'll fix that too.

1. The Suggested Upgrade Column ignores the value of an item you have equipped if you don't have the location activated. For example, you have Primalstrike Bracers equipped, but "Crafted" isn't activated on the right, it treats you as wearing something w/ zero points. Probably more of a comment then a bug.

Yeah, that through me off a bit at first - we're looking into a way to fix it. We decided not to worry about it for the initial release since, as you say, it's not so much a bug as a slightly confusing display issue, and we felt that it was better to get the zone filters out so people could play with them and give feedback rather than waiting a couple days until we'd fixed that.

• Aldriana · 06/08/07, 5:35 PM

Version 0.6.2 with latest round of bug fixes:

Excel Version:http://www.savefile.com/files/792542
OO Version: http://www.savefile.com/files/792543

roq · 06/08/07, 5:53 PM

Thanks for this spreadsheet. When i first saw it, i didn't like it much at all, but as time has gone on, i have started liking it more and more. Keep up the good work.

I do have a question. Can you explain who you are supposed to read the <weapon> Calc sheets? I have given it some effort, but i haven't fully been able to comprehend it just yet.

One bug: Spymisteress's Wristguards Socket bonus doesn't seem to take any socket bonuses

Edit: It is wierd that that i am getting AGI recommended for my weapons over Mongoose? Or that it is saying every offhand in the game is better than the sunblade?

• Aldriana · 06/08/07, 6:03 PM

Uh... yes. Those both sound like bugs. I will investigate.

Unfortunately, it sound like both Darlal and I are fairly busy this weekend, so there probably won't be another update until sometime Monday or Tuesday.

• Aldriana · 06/08/07, 6:03 PM

Upon examining the situation further, I don't seem any immediate problems - what gear/settings do you have entered in that are leading to these issues?

roq · 06/08/07, 6:19 PM

Originally Posted by Aldriana

Upon examining the situation further, I don't seem any immediate problems - what gear/settings do you have entered in that are leading to these issues?

Same exact gear that is in my armory. I may have my hourglass off and riding crop on instead. If you can't see it, let me know and i will PM it to you not to clutter the boards.

• Aldriana · 06/08/07, 6:30 PM

Found it. Answer best described as "stupidity". Calculations are off for daggers if you equip an item with weapon skill (Grips of the Deftness, in your case.) I'll throw up a fix in a minute.

roq · 06/08/07, 6:35 PM

Thanks. It is funny cause the last version, seemed to handle everything correctly /shrug.

• Aldriana · 06/08/07, 6:39 PM

Yeah, I fixed some other formulas and did something stupid. It's fixed now - I've updated the links above to point to the fixed version.

Excel Version:http://www.savefile.com/files/792542
OO Version: http://www.savefile.com/files/792543

Nock · 06/08/07, 7:29 PM

Sorry about no more replies earlier, got busy at work.

I had glanced at the Buffs page, but it might have been scrolled over because I didn't see the yes/no column that I see now, playing with the buffs I can see that the value of hit changes favorably with pretty standard melee buffs. I do realize that when unbuffed the hit rating is marginally less useful, but I gear to raid (as most of us do).

Thanks for the responses, and glad I at least helped you find an error in the sword spec formula.

Darlal · 06/08/07, 7:33 PM

Actually the yes/no boxes were a stealth update. We do that sometimes.

ron9 · 06/08/07, 10:00 PM

With the new Sword Spec changes in the upcomming PvP Patch what do you think would be the best choice to spend Arena Points on Main-hand/Off-hand Swords or Main-hand/Off-hand Fists for -purely- PVE DPS in ideal raid situations?

My Stats- 20-41-0
AP-1800
Hit-260rating
Crit- 21%(with Malice)

Using Thundering Skyfire gem, Poison VIal and Dragonspine Trophy.
Drums of Battle and Haste Potions used very often in fights and usually have Enhance Shaman in group.

enno · 06/09/07, 1:01 AM

Originally Posted by Aldriana

Anyway, I'll review the list of included items in the next release and try to add a few more low end options. But I do want to avoid having more than 2 or 3 5-man blues per slot.

Understandable and good idea, but not including Assassin set seems a bit weird as pretty much every rogue will put alot of effort ino getting those pre-karazan. Sure, the smart ones will just buy Fel Leather but they don't know that unless you put it in here, right?

And Band of Exorcist is one of those items that's so good compared to it's level and how easy it is to get it would be a shame not to include.

I do share your sentiment about Stealther's Helmet of Second Sight though.

Originally Posted by Katherine

On the point of gems, i would love if you added them in a different format. I have a hard time remembering what all the gems do. I'd prefer seeing "Glinting Noble Topaz (4 agi 4 hit)" anytime to "Delicate Living Ruby" .. was that ap or agi again?

Hope you get the point.

Second this. Can anybody actualy remember the stats behind the names?

Originally Posted by Aldriana

Optimal Hit reflects the amount of hit rating if you socketed and enchanted your current gear optimally. For exactly what is considered to be optimal for you, consult the middle gear column. So, yes, given the buffs you have selected and the gear you have equipped, the spreadsheet feels you would do more damage by gemming for less hit.

Optimal Hit *doesn't* have anything to do with the hit cap - is just an indication of how much hit you'd have if you socketed according to the recommendations in the middle column. This is primarily intended as a warning mechanism, as, in general, "optimal" involves socketing stuff with a whole lot of +8 hit gems, which will frequently put you over the hit cap - the Optimal Hit number is designed to warn you about this so you know not to socket so overwhelmingly with hit.

And about the optimal Hit.. maybe add a short explanation about that caus i'm thinking alot of people don't realy understand it. I didn't untill I came to this post of yours and now it's so obvious I feel kinda stupid

• Aldriana · 06/09/07, 2:08 AM

Re: Armor

I kicked Tidewalker tonight - base kick damage is 110, hit for 77, so 30% mitigation - or 4500 armor.

So 5k might be a bit high, but it's in the right ballpark.

Fluker · 06/09/07, 1:24 PM

Originally Posted by enno

Second this. Can anybody actualy remember the stats behind the names?

Might I also ask that you include what color slots a certain type of armor has? e.g. (Netherblade Facemask, 1M 1R).

Or maybe color the cells according to the color of the gems, if it's not too troublesome.

Well, more like a GUI update though.

On the other hand, is it possible that you make a warning or some sort when you change a gem and will result in deactivating your current meta gem? And also take into account the meta gem requirements for recommended gems.

Thanks alot for the work both of you have put in, it's a great spreadsheet ;P

EDIT: I found something weird with midnight legguards, the socket bonus(4hit) isnt activated unless you select "Weighted Total" for values. But shouldn't 4hit supposedly for offensive as well? Bug?

Xizenta · 06/09/07, 5:00 PM

Originally Posted by Aldriana

Re: Armor

I kicked Tidewalker tonight - base kick damage is 110, hit for 77, so 30% mitigation - or 4500 armor.

So 5k might be a bit high, but it's in the right ballpark.

What kind of armor reduction was this with? Seems like none to me, but I know you would not do that.

This critical strike log shows when my kick occured and who the target was.
08:06'19.031 Jaffar's Melee crits Morogrim Tidewalker for 505
08:06'19.218 Jaffar's Melee crits Morogrim Tidewalker for 840
08:06'19.937 Jaffar's Kick crits Morogrim Tidewalker for 183

This buff log shows 15 seconds previous to the kick, it shows that I had no find weakness or perceived weakness at the time to increase the damage.
08:06'03.406 Jaffar gains 1 extra attack through Windfury Attack
906 Jaffar gains Lightning Speed
08:06'05.124 Jaffar gains Haste
984 Jaffar gains 25 Energy from Relentless Strikes Effect
08:06'06.249 Jaffar gains Find Weakness
797 Jaffar gains 1 extra attack through Windfury Attack
08:06'07.453 Jaffar gains Windfury Attack
843 Jaffar gains Cold Blood
08:06'08.812 Jaffar gains 1 extra attack through Windfury Attack
08:06'09.437 Jaffar gains Windfury Attack
08:06'12.328 Jaffar gains Berserking
08:06'13.484 Jaffar gains Bloodlust
765 Jaffar gains 1 extra attack through Windfury Attack
906 Jaffar gains 25 Energy from Relentless Strikes Effect
08:06'14.296 Jaffar gains Windfury Attack
08:06'15.453 Jaffar gains 1 extra attack through Windfury Attack
906 Jaffar gains Windfury Attack
08:06'20.765 Jaffar gains Lightning Speed

• Aldriana · 06/09/07, 9:13 PM

My kick was with 5 sunders up but no other armor debuffs. Did you have Curse of Recklessness or any such thing up?

Xizenta · 06/10/07, 3:18 AM

Originally Posted by Aldriana

My kick was with 5 sunders up but no other armor debuffs. Did you have Curse of Recklessness or any such thing up?

I checked debuffs and Faerie Fire (Feral) was the only other armor debuff on him for that fight.

Gogge · 06/10/07, 12:31 PM

Crits behave strangely, with Murder+EA I hit for 112 and crit for 229 on lvl 3 mobs outside Orgrimmar (I assume 2 pt EA give 0 base armor), naked besides MH weapon and as combat/swords. As reference, with 2/2 murder I hit for 112-113 on a 0 armor (EA) rogue without nerves of steel.

Koaschten posted a hunter using beast lore screen showing Lurker as having 7685 base armor, in line with the ~5000 armor after 5xSA thing.

Rinced · 06/10/07, 1:59 PM

What about this Gem here : http://www.wowhead.com/?item=30549 imho best blue and not included in the spreadsheet. Or am i just missing something ?
Same for the Bold Living Ruby - (20 ap - pvp reward).

Escher911 · 06/10/07, 2:26 PM

I'll admit, I don't totally understand all the math going on here. I just started using the spreadsheet and read going back to read the initial posts. With all the mention of how powerful +haste is/could be, how does http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32665 fit in compared to epic pre-BT/Hyjal gear?

I've been trying to do some DPS comparisons vs. Drape of the Dark Reavers, trying to figure out how good static haste rating is (even on a blue item). I decided to go all out and get +haste to gloves, giving me a 36 static haste rating w/o BT gear (which I believe is as high as it can get without DM Libram enchants).

Anyway, I haven't noticed any huge jump in DPS and was wondering if anyone else is doing testing. I'm combat daggers so I hardly notice -.06 m-h swing speed and -.05 o-h.

Frost · 06/10/07, 4:46 PM

Great job with this spreadsheet. I'm a person who likes to explore each classes game mechanics but mainly mages and rogues. One thing I haven't understood is the attack cycles you guys have been talking about. Could someone explain or point me in the right direction to somewhere I can read about them? (I play a mage while my friend plays a rogue)