Rogue Gear Spreadsheet - Page 10

Cel · 06/02/07, 12:18 AM

I'm not very experienced in excel, so I can't do it myself, but is it possible to store your gear set choices, with maybe a macro or something? I would like to be able to keep my gear consistent from version to version, and some sort of export/import could be useful.

Darlal · 06/02/07, 3:08 AM

Originally Posted by Cloak

Whenever I put in Shard-Bound Bracer, the entire sheet goes crazy and returns #N/A for all cells.

did you add a gem into the gem slot (or select none). I probably should have put none as the default in all the cells, but try that and tell me if it fixes your problem.

I could write macros to do lots of things, but I don't think most people would want to run macros on sheets that they download from random people on the web (despite being linked by ej).

Cloak · 06/02/07, 3:20 AM

Originally Posted by Darlal

did you add a gem into the gem slot (or select none). I probably should have put none as the default in all the cells, but try that and tell me if it fixes your problem.

I could write macros to do lots of things, but I don't think most people would want to run macros on sheets that they download from random people on the web (despite being linked by ej).

Nope. No sign of a gem or an attempt of putting in a gem.

• Aldriana · 06/02/07, 3:21 AM

Originally Posted by Darlal

did you add a gem into the gem slot (or select none). I probably should have put none as the default in all the cells, but try that and tell me if it fixes your problem.

I could write macros to do lots of things, but I don't think most people would want to run macros on sheets that they download from random people on the web (despite being linked by ej).

Confirmed: if the item has sockets and you don't select either a gem or "None", the sheet does break. But if you just fill the socket, everything works again.

Emoette · 06/02/07, 5:13 AM

Can you add the Wicked Noble Topaz as a gem option please?

LiteSabre · 06/02/07, 6:30 AM

Plugged in a few of my stats for the new spreadsheet, got some interesting results. First, I have TSD and Dragonspine, but the sheet tells me that my optimal hit is 272, not 308. I was led to believe that the more haste one had, the more value HR gained, but the sheet says that such is not the case.

Also, sheet gives me a surprisingly large increase in DPS when comparing even inferior DPS swords to high quality daggers. For example, with exactly the same gear (roughly 28% crit, 1640 AP and hit capped), Vindicator's+Latro's beats Fang of Vashj + Tracker's Blade by over 30 DPS, assuming 19/42 for swords and 15/41/5 for daggers. Was the buff to sword spec so huge that it apparently edges out combat daggers by such a large margin?

Xizenta · 06/02/07, 7:21 AM

Originally Posted by LiteSabre

For example, with exactly the same gear (roughly 28% crit, 1640 AP and hit capped), Vindicator's+Latro's beats Fang of Vashj + Tracker's Blade by over 30 DPS, assuming 19/42 for swords and 15/41/5 for daggers. Was the buff to sword spec so huge that it apparently edges out combat daggers by such a large margin?

It was like this before the buff... Swords have been better since BC came out and 1.4-5 speed offhands fell into our laps.

I don't think a 5% extra attack mechanic was developed with the idea of proccing from a weapon twice as slow in your main hand (with no offhand damage penalty.)
Also, it's not completely accurate. We don't know if sword spec procs windfury, we don't know if it procs combat potency... We hardly know that sword spec doesn't proc off of itself.

Really a strength of a combat swords build that I doubt even a handful of people have realized yet is how optimal the combo point generation is.

With rupture becoming such an important and clear choice over eviscerate and combat potency changing cp generation drastically a few months ago, what has really changed?

An ideal build will give just enough points to toss up a 5 point rupture just as the preceeding rupture falls off while having a hundred percent slice uptime. Now I think daggers are too slow and mutilate is too fast for this.

Course that's just my speculation. Haven't done the math and could be wrong.

Iquark · 06/02/07, 11:13 AM

I've been messing around with the spreadsheet for quite a while now, and it's very nicely done. Couple little gripes I have with it however:

First off I believe that because of the way in which hit was calculated it is slightly overvalued. You use a method of generating the dps gain form 1 hit rating by decreasing the hit value, which because of the semi-linear properties of +hit makes the calculations slightly off.

Simple change for this would be to take the +13/205 off H35 and H31 and change H7 to read "=$B$7+1" Might be off as to your reasonings for doing this, but would make it a little more accurate.

Second, I don't know why, but I can not get my AP to match up to my in game tab on the Dagger Calc sheet. Taking off all buffs form the sheet, and seeing that all gems/items/enchants are correct it still won't show my character sheet number. It's always lower than expected!

One last thing to mention would be that each time you release a new sheet, I always add drop down boxes to the buff sheet to make it a little easier to use, as well as alternating lines of color to better choose between the buffs. Just little UI things that can make the sheet much more user friendly.

Great job on it though, I love to see all the calculations out there to go over and examine! Keep up the awesome work!

Darlal · 06/02/07, 11:39 AM

Yeah, the buff sheet will be addressed soon. Right now we're more concerned with getting core functionality correct.

To LiteSabre, what stat balance are you using? If you are using Total, agility and hit become so close in value (for a large chunk of gear) that the sheet will sometimes give what seem to be either conflicting or circular results. I personally really only use the "offensive" setting, which gives no value to defensive stats like stamina.

• Aldriana · 06/02/07, 12:00 PM

Originally Posted by LiteSabre

Plugged in a few of my stats for the new spreadsheet, got some interesting results. First, I have TSD and Dragonspine, but the sheet tells me that my optimal hit is 272, not 308. I was led to believe that the more haste one had, the more value HR gained, but the sheet says that such is not the case.

"Optimal" doesn't refer to the best possible gear you could be wearing. It refers to the best possible gemming/enchanting of what you are wearing. The reason there is an "optimal hit" number is to warn you if the gem combination it's recommending excedes the hit cap (in which case it's wrong about what's optimal; it has no way of knowing about the hit cap, so will keep recommending hit gems no matter how much you have. The general solution is to start replacing hit gems with agi gems relative to it's recommendation until you're under the hit cap.

So, it's not asserting that 272 is the absolute maximum useful haste value; merely that with your current gear, the best possible socketing yields 272 hit rating.

Originally Posted by Xizenta

It was like this before the buff... Swords have been better since BC came out and 1.4-5 speed offhands fell into our laps.

Agreed; I found this to be true of the Rogue DPS spreadsheet as well. I think it's in no small part due to the fact that swords just have access to vastly more efficient cycles; 5/5/3 is not a particularly good cycle, but it's the best that combat daggers can do; when you get to 5s/5r there's a signficant damage boost, and the ability to further drop the length of the SnD to compress the cycle even further just favors swords all the more.

Originally Posted by Xizenta

I don't think a 5% extra attack mechanic was developed with the idea of proccing from a weapon twice as slow in your main hand (with no offhand damage penalty.)
Also, it's not completely accurate. We don't know if sword spec procs windfury, we don't know if it procs combat potency... We hardly know that sword spec doesn't proc off of itself.

Yes; the sheet currently assumes that sword spec can proc all the other proc effects you may have, which may or may not be accurate, and whether it's true or not would create a fairly large disparity in dps; rogue DPS is heavily influenced due to the large number of powerful procs available right now (Dragonspine, Mongoose, Poisons, etc.)

Originally Posted by Iquark

First off I believe that because of the way in which hit was calculated it is slightly overvalued. You use a method of generating the dps gain form 1 hit rating by decreasing the hit value, which because of the semi-linear properties of +hit makes the calculations slightly off.

Simple change for this would be to take the +13/205 off H35 and H31 and change H7 to read "=$B$7+1" Might be off as to your reasonings for doing this, but would make it a little more accurate.

So, the reason why it's done the way it is is to prevent the value of hit rating from going to zero the moment you touch the hit cap; while it's true that the *incremental* value of hit goes to zero at that point, the value of the first 300 points shouldn't change; as such, I subtract the amount of hit granted by 1 hit rating after performing the floor of the the hit cap to ensure that a valid result is always obtained.

In terms of whether it's less accurate: the only difference between what it's doing and what you recommend (assuming you're not at the hit cap) is that this way measures the damage lost by you hit going down by 1, and your way measures the damage gained by hit going up by 1; either is as accurate as the other. In reality, we should be taking the derivative at the point itself rather than doing either, but since that's not practical, going one step in either direction is equally valid.

Originally Posted by Iquark

Second, I don't know why, but I can not get my AP to match up to my in game tab on the Dagger Calc sheet. Taking off all buffs form the sheet, and seeing that all gems/items/enchants are correct it still won't show my character sheet number. It's always lower than expected!

If you're refering to the stats at the top of the cacls page - that's honestly not *too* surprising to me. The stats on the calc page are in some sense "raw stats" - they're not computed in quite the same way as the ones on your character sheet. For instance, Agi and Sta don't factor in Vitality at the top; this it added further down the page. AP includes a time-averaged portion of any activated AP effects such as Bloodlust Brooch. I think there are a few other things like that as well.

That said, it's also possible there's a bug; I'll look through it and see if I can find anything. We already corrected a couple of issues that were causing stats to be added incorrectly in the last revision; it's entirely possible that we missed something so it's still a bit off.

Originally Posted by Iquark

One last thing to mention would be that each time you release a new sheet, I always add drop down boxes to the buff sheet to make it a little easier to use, as well as alternating lines of color to better choose between the buffs. Just little UI things that can make the sheet much more user friendly.

Yeah, buff sheet UI is on the list of things to be improved - we just haven't gotten to it yet. I'd expect to have something within the next couple of revisions, but don't hold me to that.

Thanks for the feedback!

LiteSabre · 06/02/07, 12:01 PM

Originally Posted by Darlal

Yeah, the buff sheet will be addressed soon. Right now we're more concerned with getting core functionality correct.

To LiteSabre, what stat balance are you using? If you are using Total, agility and hit become so close in value (for a large chunk of gear) that the sheet will sometimes give what seem to be either conflicting or circular results. I personally really only use the "offensive" setting, which gives no value to defensive stats like stamina.

I really only care about offense, so I set it to that and got the results posted above. An interesting thing to note is that when I set the sheet to combat swords with the BT MH/Hyjal OH, it gave me an optimal hit rating of 372, far above the hit cap. I have no idea what happened to cause this.

Koosai · 06/02/07, 12:03 PM

The Meta gem drop-down bar show various items such as Assault (Bracers), Clefthide Leg Armor, Dexterity and no meta gems.

And I'm using OO

LiteSabre · 06/02/07, 12:06 PM

Agreed; I found this to be true of the Rogue DPS spreadsheet as well. I think it's in no small part due to the fact that swords just have access to vastly more efficient cycles; 5/5/3 is not a particularly good cycle, but it's the best that combat daggers can do; when you get to 5s/5r there's a signficant damage boost, and the ability to further drop the length of the SnD to compress the cycle even further just favors swords all the more.

So you're saying that Vindicator's + Latro's really DOES have much higher DPS than a set of daggers that drop from Vashj and Rage Winterchill? If so, I need to go do some respeccing. o_O

I prefer swords to be honest, but I'd always assumed that daggers had naturally higher DPS to make up for the awkwardness involving positioning, plus the other constraints both PVP-wise and energy cycle/rotation-wise.

Royksopp · 06/02/07, 12:12 PM

Pardon me if I'm being redundant, but you have Bright Living Ruby labeled as Bold Living Ruby in the spreadsheet. It's a minor nuance, but I wanted to point that out for people who haven't clicked the Gems tab and explored what's included.

(Bright = +16 ap; Bold = +8 str.)

EDIT: Sorry, I forgot to ask... are fist weapons being planned to be added?

Iquark · 06/02/07, 12:21 PM

So, the reason why it's done the way it is is to prevent the value of hit rating from going to zero the moment you touch the hit cap; while it's true that the *incremental* value of hit goes to zero at that point, the value of the first 300 points shouldn't change; as such, I subtract the amount of hit granted by 1 hit rating after performing the floor of the the hit cap to ensure that a valid result is always obtained.

Well interestingly enough... because there is no validation on the MH/OH miss chance not allowing it to go below 0, hit will still remain worth it's value over 308 with these changes. I might be missing something, however I saw it level off at a number specific to gear once you hit the 308 or above mark.

Just an idea for you.