drumbum

Did you adjust the spec to include 4 points in Vile Poisons for double fists (and 0 points for fist/sword)?

Edit: I realize my mistake. For a Human rogue, expertise is awarded for swords and maces (but not fist weapons!). So yes, for humans, the [Vengeful Gladiator's Quickblade] is the better offhand. However, [Vanir's Left Fist of Savagery] comes out ahead for other races.

 

Selectamundo

Ok so basically caused myself a little dilemma tonight on Brutallus, I usually use haste pots/ad rush/bf at the start so it's up by the 5 minute mark, to open I garrote 1 point snd work it up to 4 point snd then use ad rush/bf/haste pot, do a 5 point rupture and a 5 point evis and work enough points up for 3 snd then do a 3s/5r rotation. The problem I'm facing atm is losing uptime on my rupture, if combat potency doesn't seem to proc enough I usually need to 1 point snd to work up another 3 points to snd again then 5r afterwards, when I do this I seem to lose a lot of dps usually from 2200 ish to 2000 ish.

I'm basically reliant on relentless strikes and combat potency procing to do above 2k dps, but yea I'm just curious is there something wrong with my rotation or is there anything I can do to improve it and boost it over 2k on this fight in particular my avg dps was around 2k for all the attempts we did, highest I did was 2300 for a space of 2-3 mins before it was a wipe (with extremely lucky combat potency/relentless strike procs I was keeping 3s/5r up the entire fight). Also curious if it might be lack of dst perhaps? Not sure.

Will read back later if anyone has any tips :P.

Edit: also dps rotation sheet said 3.4s/5r which I've been trying to follow pretty closely, and never lose snd time.

 

Arindelest

You should probably use 4s/5r, and even possibly 5s/5r with energy queuing if you're using AtoL. This will probably improve your Rupture uptime, since 3s/5r for you is not actually mathematically sustainable (hence the reason you're sometimes running out of SnD time before you can do another 3s), and it's difficult to judge when to do a 3s and when to do a 4s if you're trying to mix different magnitudes of Slice.

 

Mojofabulous

I still run in the same issue even though the spreadsheet tells me 3s/5r. I'm so barely within the 3s/5r category that just a little bad luck makes me do a 1 or 2 point snd. I'm considering going back to 4s/5r simply because losing just a teeny tiny bit of SND uptime on a fight like brutallis can have massive dps consequences considering how buffed I am on that fight.

Btw is anyone running in to threat issues on that fight? I'm not sure if I should be feinting a little at the start and hold off on vanish till later or what. Last attempt of the night I actually pulled aggro about 3.5 minutes in to the fight cause of astronomical dps numbers. I wasn't aware rogues could do that anymore post-dst/warglaive nerf. Maybe it was just a fluke and our tanks got a lot of parries or some such, just curious if other rogues have run in to the same problem.

 

• Aldriana

So, the thing is, pulling aggro on Brutallus after the first minute or so should be all but impossible due to the fact that the boss in being chain taunted. At every taunt, the tank's aggro is reset to that of the highest-aggro person in the raid. So consider what's necessary for one to pull aggro 3.5 minutes into the fight:

Lets say you've been doing 2000 DPS all fight. This is perhaps a conservative estimate, but it provides a baseline. You are thus generating 1000 TPS; thus, the taunt that occurred at the 3 minute mark gave that tank at *least* 180k aggro... probably more, since that would imply that the tanks were never ahead of you on aggro, which is usually not the case. But at a bare minimum, the tank has 180k aggro, and you have 180k aggro.

Now, in the next 30 seconds, lets say you pop all cooldowns and get a Bloodlust, boosting your damage to 3k DPS. For the next 35 seconds, you're thus generating 1500 TPS, which brings your total thread to 232500 before the next taunt. Since the tank, thanks to taunt, is the "owner" of the mob, this means that the tank needs to have 232500/1,1 = 211363 aggro to hold against you; this works out to generating 31363 aggro in 35 seconds, or about 900 TPS... which is totally reasonable for any tank at this level to be sustaining. And that's assuming a sort of worst-case scenario in terms of threat spikiness.

The point here is that the tank gets caught up on aggro every 35 seconds via taunt; thus, to pull, you need to generate 10% more threat than the tank has generated in the entire fight on top of whatever he's generating in that 35 second window. As such, while pulling in the first minute or so can be a concern (though usually isn't, with misdirects), it should be seriously hard to catch up later in the fight.

As such, I usually vanish very early - right after the first taunt, usually - and never have aggro issues (which isn't surprising, since I'm usually keeping EA up and am not in the melee group). And, for instance, the dual-glaive rogue in my guild - who doesn't even have feint on his bars - did 2700 DPS on Brutallus this week without vanishing at all. So by and large, I'd say that if you're pulling, there's a problem with your tanking that should be fixed.

 

Dampfbrumsel

No, I never pulled aggro or even had to use Feint, and according to Omen. I never even got close to our tanks' aggro levels (but that doesn't mean much with the current state of Omen).
Anyway, I am quite surprised that the spreadsheet recommends a 3s/5r cycle for your gear. Did you properly adjust the buffs? Also switching to Ashtongue should provide a DPS increase as well as get you into a 5s/5r cycle.

 

Agkelos

Ok... so perhaps I am missing it but is there no way to put your spec in as mutilate on this spread sheet? I realise that mutilate hasn't been modeled perfectly (to my knowledge) on any spreadsheet but I was looking for a "ball park estimate" on something. Am I simply missing where I can put in more points in the assassination tree or has that been left out of this on purpose?

 

Mojofabulous

Perhaps it was just a fluke then. When I pulled I was doing 2650 dps and had just gotten off of a 3k spike. That's the first time I'd pulled aggro and honestly wasn't even paying attention to omen cause it hadn't been a problem at all in all the previous attempts. Will just chalk it up as a random occurance.

BTW, I was in my shadowstep gear for the weekend and pvp specced. That's not my raid stuff :-)

 

drumbum

The Gear spreadsheet has never modeled Mutilate, but the DPS spreadsheet does.

 

Selectamundo

On the 3k burst type thing Aldriana was just saying I pulled aggro once out of the 15-20 attempts we had and took the stomp almost instantly (I loled at it and said tank harder everyone in the group was raging at me :<).

I modeled it exactly how our dps buffs are given and thats what it came out with :>.

 

• songster

Uh - I thought the wisdom was that you shouldn't use EA if you have a warrior tank. Are all your tanks bears/pallies? In any case, doesn't EA become less useful (relatively) on a high armor boss like Brutallus?

 

• Aldriana

1) We use two druid tanks on Brutallus
2) Brutallus is 7685 armor, which isn't abnormally high.
3) 475 extra armor pen is 475 extra armor pen. And with 3 hunters, 3 rogues, a fury warrior, a MS warrior, an enhancement shaman, and a ret pally in the raid, it's hard to argue that 475 armor pen for everyone doesn't do more damage than Rupture would.

 

Sneakiest

Not if he has Improved EA -- easily doable in any 20/41 or 19/42 configuration, just less points in vile/improved poisons -- in which case it's 3000 armor ignore over 2500 from sunder, so it's better.

E: Beaten to it by Aldriana :<

Also I need to stop assuming people here don't know such basic things, doh.

As he/she says, it's all about synergy. Group benefits versus your own DPS. An extra ~500 armor ignore generally translates into about an extra 2~3% DPS per rogue in tier 6 level. You multiply that by all the physical DPS classes in the raid and it's very much a bigger benefit than your measly 3-5% DPS off rupture. So it's very likely he/she's nearly making up for the lost rupture damage for himself alone.

 

Cybelirrae

I vanish early as well. I understand the mechanic, but I do not have the stones to never vanish. I can't believe Rod didn't pull at least once with his dps.

 

royaljester

Just wondering, I noticed it for the first time last night, but is anyone else's omen tricked into thinking, even while SS'ing/Melee'ing, I'm at caster range.

I backed up to create better positioning for myself and found that omen changed the threshold to +30% of tank agro to pull agro (normally the threshold is +10% since we're in melee range). I moved in closer than I was, saw the "PULL AGRO" bar change to +10%. Now, on top of that, my threat at several starts was over 110% of the current tank, sometimes as high as 120-124% before I'd vanish. Assuming that's right, couldnt melee just back out a little further and be able to have a higher threat cap (130%), thus keeping pulls to a literal 0% chance.

 

• Aldriana

Just as a point of clarification:

It appears that I might have been mistaken about the mechanics of taunt; from my own experience and what I remember reading I was pretty sure it gives aggro equal to the highest person, but since I posted this I've been informed that it actually just gives the aggro of the current target. Now, since I don't have any evidence in front of me either way, I can't swear as to which is correct, but regardless you should take my earlier post with a grain of salt.

That said: it should still be pretty darn hard to pull aggro on this fight, purely because the tanks have totally unlimited rage and nothing else to think about. In a lot of fights they need to worry about rage management or moving the boss or some such; in this fight they do not, so tank aggro should be pretty good - from what I hear, 1400 TPS should be easily possible, which means as a rogue that you need to do 2800 DPS just to match the tank... and even if the Taunt mechanic described above is incorrect, you'd still need 3100 DPS to actually pull... which is a bit outside the means of most rogues at this point, at least without ridiculous group stacking.

 

lawl

The spreadsheet tells me that moving from lionseye to pyrestone is a DPS decrease (slightly). This includes when the spreadsheet takes kings into account.

However, I see that the person that created the spreadsheet is stacking nothing but pyrestones and even a spinel in the boots.

Explanation?

 

saedo

You don't have to blindly follow a spreadsheet. A spreadsheet models the perfect tank and spank 100% time on target scenario for maximum damage. Real game doesn't always follow that. Hit is superior for maximum white damage in those scenarios, while agility is best for interrupted fights to better burst. What situation you decide to gear for is up to personal preference.

 

Cybelirrae

I will let the author give the full explanation, but I can offer a bit of insight. If you look at all the best in slot final Sunwell rogue items, they offer so much hit that it will be very easy to be over the 363 cap (especially when hit food is factored in). His boot gem is essentially a selection that he would prefer if he had all the final pieces to avoid having to regem by spending his own badges or wasting one of his guild bank's gems.

Additionally, trash in raid zones ranges from 70-72 and thus if you are hit capped for 73 boss mobs, you are "wasting" a substantial amount of hit on those lesser mobs (and remember especially once an instance is on farm you spend a majority of your time clearing trash not bosses). Also, bear in mind that while a 10 hit gem is slightly better than a 5 agi/5 hit or even a 10 agi, the differences are not that significant (in my current gear, for example, a 10 hit lionseye is less than 2 EP better than a pyrestone and less than 4 EP better than a spinel).

 

Nock

If you wanted this question asked in a different thread, just let me know.

I'm planning out our Brutallus fight, and noting that we hit the debuff limit quite handily. When looking over what debuffs that we can remove (damn you fireball dots and deep wounds) It's obviously easy to ask the rogues to swap something out since we run 3 and have 2 debuffs each. I only need to get rid of 3 debuffs however, and I'm wondering which would be the lesser of two evils:

Deadly Poison > Instant Poison
Rupture > Eviscerate

Assume whatever you need to assume, I believe that unbuffed AP is like 2800 before procs, and we will be using a feral druid in the raid so Mangle will be available.

I'm hoping that Instant Poison is the lesser impact for the sake of ease of energy use in cycles, and I know that's showing 30 dps difference on the spreadsheet with my gear. But I can't seem to find the place where the sheet compares Eviscerate cycles (if it even does).

 

◊ Shaker

With Mangle up, there should really be no question - move DP -> IP, keep Rupture. Eviscerate cycles are completely different due to needing an extra 10 energy. You're better off having them focus on doing their optimal cycle well, rather than learning a new one.

Also, what brings you to the debuff limit so harshly that you're cutting ROGUE debuffs? Are you seriously running more than 4 combined SPriests/Affliction Locks?

Consistency. It's only a virtue if you're not a screwup.

 

Macblade

Indeed, if the 'locks in my guild are any indication, they gain a large chunk of DPS moving from affliction to detro somewhere around the middle of T6. So that is probably something for your guild to consider if you're running out of debuff spots.

 

• Aldriana

Cybe hit the high points pretty well, but, to reiterate:

1) Hit is more DPS on an endless sustained fight. Few fights are truly sustained, and even fewer are endless. Thus, in practice, hit loses perhaps 3% of it's value relative to the theoretical value. The astute observer might note that this still puts hit somewhat ahead, albeit by a smaller margin, so from a pure DPS perspective hit is still better.

2) However, agi additionally gives some dodge. And while dodge isn't a *super* important stat, reducing the probability that you'll get gibbed by an inattentive aggro pull (by yourself or, for cleaving bosses, some other melee), and increasing one's ability to evasion tank to extend fights by 10 seconds after enrage is of non-negligible worth. This further closes the gap.

3) The hit caps against level 72, 71, and 70 mobs are, as I recall, 316, 308, and 300. Thus, while on bosses hit up to 363 is useful, on trash - and on bosses with adds (which I'm not going to list exhaustively but includes, of note, Felmyst) - hit above the low 300s is wasted. Thus, I personally prefer to keep my hit down in this range if I can do so without significant adverse effect to my DPS; and by points 1 and 2, trading hit for agi on a 1-to-1 basis is not really a very bad trade. Fundamentally: hit is 100% of the damage 90% of the time, and agi is 95% of the damage 100% of the time (numbers are approximate, but you get the idea).

4) Some of my gear was socketed quite some time ago - like, before the weapon skill nerf type long ago - and I haven't bothered to resocket it, since using half a dozen epic gems to get a half-percent DPS increase didn't seem like a particularly efficient way of doing business. I did a calculation at the time that indicated that socketing everything with glintings was the way to go... so I did.

5) It's worth keeping in mind where one is relative to various stat breakpoints. Of note: with Vitality, the spreadsheet credits each point of agi as *really* giving 1.02 agi, whereas in practice most poinst give one and every 50th point gives 2. The relevance of this? I don't have the numbers in front of me, but as I recall, if you take the optimal sunwell gear, and socket it such that you hit 298 hit rating, you wind up with 545 agility from gear. At which point it only makes sense to drop one additional pyrestone for a spinel, making 293 hit but hitting the next breakpoint. As I recall, this involves socketing the 14 sockets in optimal Sunwell gear with 2 Shifting Shadowsong Amethysts, 5 Delicate Crimson Spinels, and 7 Pyrestones (though you might want to doublecheck me on that; I don't have the exact numbers in front of me).

6) With regards to boots in particular: that calculation is based on the assumption that boots are socketed with Cat's Swiftness. In reality, one would want to procure one set of boots with Cat's Swiftness, and one with 12 agi, the first to use on most fights and the 2nd to use on purely sustained fights like Brutallus and Teron. But since you gain 6 agi from doing so, one can replace a Spinel with a Glinting and still remain above the Vitality breakpoint as well, and gain a slight DPS boost by so doing; as such, it only makes sense to have one set of boots be Spinel/Cat's Swiftness, and the other Pyrestone/12 agi. Since I find Cat's Swiftness to be useful on more fights than not (in BT+Sunwell there are 5 fights where I prefer 12 agi and 7 where I prefer Cat's Swiftness), I made those boots first.

As a quick note/public service announcement: without going into great gory detail as to the underlying reasons for these choices (though such reasons exist): I plan the other 4 Spinels to be one in Carapace of Sun and Shadow, one in Slayer's Belt, one in Duplicitous Guise, and one in Leggings of the Immortal Night. The Shiftings go in Carapace + T6 shoulders. Everything else is Glinting. If you want the painstakingly detailed reasoning behind this, PM me and I'll explain it.

Fundamentally: the spreadsheet is a tool to get you pointed in the right direction. However, if you understand all the underlying concepts, there are subtle optimizations you can make based on personal preferences to allow your gear to be the best possible fit for your play style, guild, and other circumstances.

 

Nock